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screaming parrotlet

Calpurnia

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I don't believe this to be punishing (or that the bird sees it that way) simply because of the biology of a bird's social attachment needs
I agree with your overall message. I also agree with your logic behind the physiological reaction to socialization. And I also agree that people do not spend enough time trying to work with their parrots natural behaviors (I hope I got that across in my earlier comments!). But I don't agree that this kind of covering is not a form of punishment. Positive punishment, most simply defined is the addition of an adverse stimuli to reduce the frequency of a behavior. And we know already that using positive punishments leaves one open to the possibility of negative side effects. So while I think your argument here:

If a bird has to be covered for a short while so that it can calm down and a person/family can clear their heads, that's not causing any harm to the bird, especially if the only alternative is for the bird to remain in a state of panic (stereotypies being a manifestation of social deprivation).
might make sense for some select situations, but certainly does not for others. My problem with covering birds that are obviously screaming for attention is the fact that in many cases the cover does NOT effectively calm them. Especially if (like in the case of the OP) she is merely covering a side of the cage to block the bird's view, but the bird can still hear and understand everything that is going on around it, it could have the opposite effect. In a similar vein, all of my birds are covered to sleep at night. But in the morning, once it gets light out and they can hear me moving around the house making breakfast they will start making a racket. They aren't simple enough to be fooled by the "artificial night". And once they get started they absolutely will work themselves into a frenzy if I don't come uncover them within the next half hour. In both of these cases I believe there is no real stress relief going on. With very short covered periods? Maybe, but again there is always going to be huge variation depending on the situation and bird.

Most experience that the desire of parrots to be with us seems to increase exponentially each time we spend time with them. How many of us have given a parrot in a store 5 min. of attention only to have it not allow us to leave? So I don't believe in the contrary, that they can "learn" that they're only going to get 1/2 an hour, and hour, two hours, each day. They will always want more and more because the bond is neurologically enforced and strengthened.
Again I feel like the answer here is probably yes and no. I don't have experience owning the largest parrots so can't say how their emotional attachments differ from the smaller species. But owning my own birds I have yet to notice an "exponential increase" in their desires to be with us the more they are given the change. In fact, I've experienced the opposite. Like I mentioned to the OP, when I spend MORE time at home and give my birds both the freedom to go and do what they want they tend to spend LESS time with me overall. For the past 3 weeks we've been on holiday, and today I have spent a grand total of 15 mins with my p'let on my shoulder, 15 mins sitting with our Senegal at the breakfast table, and zero one-on-one time with our aracari. For the majority of the last 3 hours our p'let has spent his time doing laps around the house/sitting on his kitchen perch chatting, aracari-bro is napping on a java stand 3 feet away, and our Sennie has made her way through another stack of cardboard and pine slats. At any time they have the opportunity to join me on the couch, but they are content as they are and have yet to make a peep in protest.

But during normal work hours this is completely different. As soon as come home I'm tackled by a p'let flying into my face, an aracari hopping onto the other shoulder trying to eat my hair, and a Sennie shrieking to be let out. The next 2 hours are dedicated to cramming in all of the attention I can give to everyone. So in my opinion, for SOME birds at least it's about the quality not the quantity of interaction. 2 hours of interaction can be spread across 8 hours or accomplished all at once. But after that quality time the fids are content with something more "ambient". Though this kind of attention may be inferior it still can stimulate that innate social desire that you have described. Of course that means figuring out just what level of "quality" interaction your bird requires, which can be tough (and which is where I think the OP is seeing her issues).

Finally, when I say that a bird can express their desires in a more enjoyable way, I don't think that this automatically assumes we are "fighting nature". As you mention, it is completely natural for a parrot to vocalize when stressed and isolated. Trying to stifle these vocalizations would be unnatural. Trying to modify them however is not. My favorite example was one I saw at a parrot training workshop hosted by Barbara Heidenreich. She was very adamant in asserting to the audience that vocalizing in parrots is normal and to be expected (after people brought up numerous questions about "excessive" screaming). She never wanted someone to think they could eliminate the behavior but emphasized with her own home video how these vocalizations could be trained to a more positive spectrum. She showed a time lapse video of her own amazon screaming whenever she walked by the cage. Cut forward a few weeks and now he was saying "Hello!" instead. After these positive vocalizations he received the attention he craved. She showed how she was able to prolong the time between true screams by teaching him to instead repeat back all of the phrases or whistle the tunes he had learned instead. He would talk to himself for up to 45 mins before receiving his reward.

Now a person does not have to wait this long before responding to the bird (especially if you think it is stressing them). So instead just respond soon after your bird calls you with the more pleasant vocalization. In the end I see it benefiting both parties. The bird is not encouraging negative emotions in the person and yet still achieving their desired effect.
 

LaSelva

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But I don't agree that this kind of covering is not a form of punishment. Positive punishment, most simply defined is the addition of an adverse stimuli to reduce the frequency of a behavior.
From the very first definition that comes up on a Google search (where would we be without it)....

"Positive punishment works by presenting a negative consequence after an undesired behavior is exhibited, making the behavior less likely to happen in the future. The following are some examples of positive punishment: A child picks his nose during class and the teacher reprimands him in front of his classmates."

Assuming that the bird knows that it's screaming is an undesirable behavior (and we probably both agree that the bird does not); My question would be, how do we know that the bird finds the dark aversive, or (more germane to our discussion) sees it as a child sees a reprimand? Considering....(Google once again)...

"aversive stimulus. In behavior therapy this term applies to an event or stimulus a person will usually avoid or escape from."

Can we say with certainly that birds avoid or want to escape from the dark? Mmmm, iffy. We place them in the dark, for example, when we want them to settle down such as in the case of a broken blood feather. Where, otherwise, they would thrash around and not allow the blood to clot. There are other examples, such as baby birds are comforted by the dark, but I'll let you tell me what you think. Keep in mind, I'm not talking about overuse of darkness. As I mentioned, proper photoperiod is necessary for mental/physiological well being and to deny this is cruel.

Though this kind of attention may be inferior it still can stimulate that innate social desire that you have described. Of course that means figuring out just what level of "quality" interaction your bird requires, which can be tough (and which is where I think the OP is seeing her issues).
I agree. But I don't think that "inferior" is a word we can use to describe attention, which itself is an ambiguous term. I don't think we have to categorize or describe the attention at all because if we agree that, for our purposes, the principle behind "attention" is alleviating separation distress in the home environment then our posts are consistent with each other. The social attachment need is still there but met (in this case) through the important word you used...."freedom." And I think we'll agree, most of the time people have screaming issues while the bird is caged, can't get to them, or can't be where the action is, etc.

Like I mentioned to the OP, when I spend MORE time at home and give my birds both the freedom to go and do what they want they tend to spend LESS time with me overall.
This freedom, to the bird, could mean no anxiety due to confinement (it feels it can be with us if it wants), the comfort of ambient attention, or the company of flying around with other birds, etc. Sometimes my birds just want to sit on top of their cages other times they want to be much closer to us, on the couch if we're sitting there. Again, as you said, it's about figuring it out and imo based on the underlying principle, not the means of achieving it.
 
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LaSelva

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Matter of fact, I think views on what constitutes "attention" would be a very interesting topic and one worth exploring - I think it would make for a great thread. To my recollection it hasn't been addressed thus far and it's quite odd that a term used so often in assessing a behavior, as in, "my (your) bird is screaming for attention," remains so ambiguous. Perhaps, as has been touched upon above, the bird is screaming because it's unable to fulfill some broader desire, whether it's attention (whatever that is), out of cage time (some like the perspective of the top of their cage), or to feel the freedom of movement and choice.

Although there are terms used such as ambient and direct attention, these terms still only represent how the human sees it. If asked which type of attention we'd classify a bird sitting on one's shoulder most would say "direct" I'm sure, because the bird is in such close proximity to the human. My bird has been known to tuck one foot in and fall asleep on my shoulder, but I'm still rather ignoring it when it's there (ambient). But if I turn my head and my ear brushes past it, my bird reacts as if I'm initiating (direct) contact/play. Both illustrate different ways of looking at it.

To complicate matters, parrots (aside from simply being "social") form mate bonds with us. And this is a social desire that will never be fulfilled.
 
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Vera

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today the birds were out their cage for about 3 hours in the afternoon, the male has a couple of flight feathers grown back and he flew around a couple of times. the female can't fly yet, but i started some clicker training with her today, hoping she would like this extra one-on-one attention, besides that she does anything for food. after 5 minutes she was bored and tired. the male already decided to fly back to his cage. he is more independent and isn't very focussed on us. he gives kisses, give a foot, steps up and behaves, but he loves his female, and she loves to be with us, with him besides her.
so after the flying around and the clicker training i put the birds back in their own cage. they took a nap right away.
i started cooking dinner and she was right awake, screaming again. i ignored her and when she was quiet again i took them out and put them on the playstand with some sprouted seeds.
dinner was ready, we were eating, they were sitting right beside us.
after 10 minutes they were arguing like crazy and again we put them back in their own cage. screaming continued for 10 minutes or so and after that they settled down and finished their sprouts.

we will see if it will work to have them with us during dinner time, but i think there must be some other reason for this behaviour. today she had so much attention, and still this behaviour....

i also have a topic about her behaviour on talkparrotlets forum. they recognize her behaviour as a "normal"parrotlet behaviour: most parrotlets react like this when they hear the tap running or hear plastic bags crinkle.
she reacts like this when we use paper towels, when we wipe the table with a damp cloth, when we are watching tv, or when we are just sitting on the couch. it is like something is triggering her behaviour.
i almost think that she is over-stimulated when we are in the livingroom.

during the day the house is silent. when i was home from work due to illness a couple of weeks ago, i was lying in my bed during the day, and they were quiet all day, they only made some normal sounds.
i can't figure her out. we love her (both of them) very much but we are getting desperate by her behaviour. we really want to solve this problem but we don't now how.
 

Calpurnia

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we will see if it will work to have them with us during dinner time, but i think there must be some other reason for this behaviour. today she had so much attention, and still this behaviour....
Vera, I know you are frustrated but don't give up! I don't know how to stress enough that big behavioral changes will not happen overnight. You've done really well in implementing some of our suggestions. That is only step one. Step two and three are creativity and consistency. This may mean fine tuning your tricks and routine over the coming weeks to figure out what seems to be helping and what does not (or potentially makes the problem worse). The last step is persistence. You are not going to teach a bird that has learned to bite or scream excessively to stop doing so in a day. Maybe not in a month, or even a year. There is NO quick fix. You can have a thousand pages full of all the best training advice in the world and in the end it is worthless UNLESS you can implement it. This means learning to understand your individual bird's "language" and motivations. Learning how to use a training technique effectively and consistently. Learning how to set yourself up for success by creating a parrot-friendly lifestyle.

Starting off you're going to make mistakes. Being able to "figure your bird out" can involve a huge learning curve. Throughout the process your bird is going to have good and bad days. The bad days are going to make you feel like all progress has been lost but you'll have to stop nitpicking the day-to-day details and instead look at the bigger picture. Consider keeping a training journal detailing your progress. It can help you keep track of your little victories and make the bad days seem less terrible. Every day I would write down what you did that day (including a note on what you did differently), how your bird reacted, and any thoughts or questions you might have on WHY it happened. Then make a point to write down at least one good thing she did. Keep focusing on these positives for motivation.

I have a couple last comments for you:

First, go to the website Good Bird Inc. and buy/download Barbara Heidenreich's webinars and DVDs for dealing with bad behaviors and learning to read bird body language. It can be extremely helpful to see a real person interacting with a real bird instead of trying to figure out a training technique through text. Second, I'm going to have to say I do think there may be a (BIG) component of "normal parrotlet behavior" (or probably more accurately "normal PARROT behavior") going on here. The more and more details you give us, the more I'm starting to wonder if your bird is actually screaming excessively or this is just the noise one must expect living with parrots.

What makes me think this is 1) your birds are quiet when the environment is quiet, and noisy when the environment is noisy. COMPLETELY NORMAL. We were listening to music loudly on the living room speakers last night and Julian was on his playstand. He already spends at least half the day chittering and chattering quietly to himself, but as soon as the music began to blast he was CHIRP CHIRP CHIRPING at the top of his lungs. Water and crinkling plastic or paper will absolutely set a p'let off. He's not being over-stimulated. He's being a bird with normal lungs and normal hearing.

2) I realize looking back at your posts that you never mention how long she goes (other than 10 mins). This is important too. 10-15 minutes of loud vocalizations is NORMAL. Our p'let will do this multiple times a day, from the top of their favorite perch. It could be you are sensitive to the noise that you are subconsciously blowing it out of proportion. Remember, you signed up for noise by choosing a parrot. All of the advise about "quiet" birds means nothing if you are naturally noise sensitive. I used to have friends complain constantly about how deafening and annoying our budgie's noise was.... even though it was only 3 birds chatting at normal volume. Maybe try running an air purifier or fan for white noise to help you tune the chirping out?

It may also help if you try asking other p'let members how loud and vocal their birds are? It could help you gain some perspective on what to expect.
 

Vera

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thanks, i will do some more research.

the behaviour can last for a couple of minutes, after that we are happy that she has settled down for 2 minutes, and then it starts again and again.
it helps if we offer some sprouted seeds or dry seeds during dinnertime, but it wan't keep her quiet all the time.

i have another question: what if we continue to take her out during dinner and aren't able to take her out during dinner daily? wouldn't she become stressed then because she is used to be with us during dinner?
isn't it better to "teach" her to have her own special food in the cage during dinner time, and that she can be with us after we all have finished our food?
 

sdloydmom

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one of my pairs is incredibly noisy. All day long no matter what. I have one young parrotlet about a year now that has always been very quiet. Can't seem to get them to settle down ever. I'm afraid my nice quiet bird is beginning to pick up this annoying habit. They are not sick they have food water toys attention xcetera period please help
 

Monica

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one of my pairs is incredibly noisy. All day long no matter what. I have one young parrotlet about a year now that has always been very quiet. Can't seem to get them to settle down ever. I'm afraid my nice quiet bird is beginning to pick up this annoying habit. They are not sick they have food water toys attention xcetera period please help

Can you provide a picture of their cage setup, and tell us more about their diet and routine?
 
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