HUGE Opportunity

[jmfleish]

A good breeder will vet check all their breeders and their pets yearly and all babies. Just because a baby comes with a guarantee does not mean that you should not vet the baby yourself. I wouldn't buy a baby bird from a breeder who did not vet. I also wouldn't buy a baby bird from a person who didn't do polyoma vaccinations and that is an initial shot plus a booster, two vet visits. Every single one of your babies should not only come with a health guarantee but should also come with proof of vet check. This is the just the beginning of a good breeder.

 

[srtiels]

Good Luck, I for one will not try to discourage you because I have been down the same path. You can click on my Avatar to PM me. I can give you my email address and would be GLAD to discuss anything as you go along.

Also, since you have cockatiels, if you look at my signature there is a link to my cockatiel website. It is still under construction, BUT there is still alot of useful info.

The ONE THING I would like to stress, is that since these are all inside birds to Invest in good quality air cleaners.

 

[srtiels]

A good breeder will vet check all their breeders and their pets yearly and all babies.
-----------------------------------------------

I feel I AM an excellent breeder, and DO NOT vet check all birds/pets yearly. I feel that part of the venture in pet and bird ownership is researching all the illnesses and diseases each species of bird is prone to, and also learn how not have these issues crop up.

I have a vet that if I have a concern will do house calls and do a complete flock visit. This type of vet would be the type of vet to look for, and also one that does work with alot of local breeders.

 

[jmfleish]

With how carefully birds hide their illness, I wouldn't do business with any breeder who didn't have an intimate relationship with a well established avian vet. Yearly exams and new baby exams are critical to making sure that the baby bird you get has the best start in life. For me, this is the halmark of a good breeder. JMHO.

 

[srtiels]

With how carefully birds hide their illness, I wouldn't do business with any breeder who didn't have an intimate relationship with a well established avian vet. Yearly exams and new baby exams are critical to making sure that the baby bird you get has the best start in life. For me, this is the halmark of a good breeder. JMHO.

------------------------------------

And IMHO with an established flock yearly vet visits are NOT needed. This would be a priority on new birds, especially if the person they are being purchased from does not have a vet.

As to new birds, simple precautions such as quarentine should be used. This is also true within a flock that has been housed inside. EACH room has it's own bacterial make-up, which the birds in the room have built-up an immunity to. Moving groups of birds amongst rooms can also expose them to a different bacterial environment, and though all birds are healthy, the move can adversely affect the bird.

As to birds hiding their illnesses, this also happens within established vet checked flocks. This is something that someone new to bird care and management needs to learn and study prior to assuming the flock.

As to the person inquiring, she/he should be able to talk to the owners vet to see if she/he can get a health history of the flock.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I would honestly say DO NOT BREED, but find all those breeders a nice place to retire. If you do decide to breed, BREED ON A SMALL SCALE. If you have hundreds of babies at a time.. how can you properly take care of so many? So many babies to take care of, what about food, TOYS, and enrichment and SOCIALIZATION and PROPERLY FLEDGING and letting them fly? Are you crowding all those babies into small cages waiting for them to be sold?

I would say if you wanted to breed, keep 1-4 pairs of a birds, and make sure they are the birds you are interested in and people actually want them... With macaws, cockatoo, etc, all the larger parrots take 6months and more, to properly wean and fledge.. so they'll be anywhere between 6montsh and over a year old before they go to their forever home.. you will not be making any money...no profit. Breed for the pure pleasure and breed only when you have fantastic awesome homes lined up.

And if you look what I posted on this thread, Im the last post on the page, you'll see ALL the concerns I have about buying from a breeder;

http://forums.avianavenue.com/amazon-avenue/17077-some-basic-questions-you-vast-minds-answer.html

Also have you looked on craigslist.org or kijiji.com and all the other classifieds.. there are HUNDREDS of birds in a certain area being list daily.. there are so many birds that are already unwanted.. its a matter of time before all of the chicks you sell are being rehomed again.. and have you looke dinto rescues and sanctuaries.. many birds are abused, neglected, etc, do you mind the thought of one of your poor precious baby birds being abused or neglected? Because the fact is some of your babies will be in the wrong hands. You'll remember their sweet cute calm faces, and then you'll look at the horror and truth of their current situation.. those poor black marvelous eyes looking up pitiful as they are being abused or neglected.. THIS is why I stopped breeding birds. Im not against the GOOD breeders and good people buying from ethical breeders.. but there are not many out there that are really high quality, and no matter what, the future of the babies lives will always be a mystery. They wont all be in happy lovie dovie homes forever...

 

[Ming-Ming]

Well I wasn't planning on having hundreds of babies at a time. No they aren't all crowded in tiny cages waiting to be sold, and all the babies are socialized all the time with the owners, and volunteers. They have tons of toys that are rotated in and out, and cleaned and disinfected. They all learn to fly before they are clipped, and only clipped if the new owner wants it. Also I am not looking to breed larger birds because of the room they require. All birds get a large array of different foods to sample when finishing up their weaning from fruits, veggies, grains, sprouts, and different pellets and seeds.
I'm kind of offended that you would automatically assume that I am planning on being a bird hoarder that just wants to make pure profit out of this, and not care about the well-being of the birds.

The reason I seek questions is that if I do decide to go off on this adventure i'd want to do it right, and make sure I'm not getting ripped off on the way proper aviary standards should be.

As for birds going to unknown homes, that is always a risk in this business. Naturally, i'd screen as best as I could, and expect owners to keep in contact with me, but as always you can't always guarantee that, like for any pet. I'm definitely not going to pump out birds just to sell them, and will always take proper care of them until I can find suitable homes.
But I will definitely keep your comments in mind...

 

[Bokkapooh]

I'm kind of offended that you would automatically assume that I am planning on being a bird hoarder that just wants to make pure profit out of this, and not care about the well-being of the birds.

As for birds going to unknown homes, that is always a risk in this business. Naturally, i'd screen as best as I could, and expect owners to keep in contact with me, but as always you can't always guarantee that, like for any pet. I'm definitely not going to pump out birds just to sell them, and will always take proper care of them until I can find suitable homes.
But I will definitely keep your comments in mind...

Oh no Im not saying your a bird hoarder at allor going to be one either.

But Im always worried when people think "hey Im going to be a bird breeder" or any animal breeder at that. Im not against keeping animals as pets, but Im against most of the people on this planet who take in a pet and dont take care of them properly. And breeding animals, most of the time, you dont truly have really good homes lined up. Its not the world we live in. But people continue to breed on a mass scale.

And I was a small bird breeder for over 5 years.. I helped MANY breeders breed, feed, a huge variety of birds(from finches to budgies, tiels, lovies, conures, amazons, cockatoos, macaws, greys), for over 8 years.. and I have also in the past 3 years, been to rescues and sanctuaries (and in the past 3 years I have not been a breeder) and I have learned a LOT about birds... and wouldn't suggest to anyone, to be a breeder.

I agree with what someone has said earlier, only breed the more rarer species, not the overpopulated species that are already in full abundance in stores, rescues, garages, in dumps, etc. And in fact I would love to breed again or be apart of something that was breeding rarer species of parrots and birds. That would be neat!

Also before breeding any species of animal, I would recommend volunteering at a rescue and/or sanctuary, so you can truly understand what I am talking about. So in your case, a parrot/bird rescue/sanctuary. Once I started to be more active and volunteering and educating myself, and then went back to try and help some breeders out.. it was never the same.. you look at it with new opened eyes.

 

[jmfleish]

It really is a lot of work and there isn't any money in it if you do it right. I think that was the point that Mercedez was really trying to get across. If you really want to breed, choose one or two species that you really like that need to be bred. I hate to sound nasty, but we don't need any more Cockatiels. There are so many out there that already need homes. You already pointed out that Lovebirds are very overbred. I mentioned the Rueppells Parrot that is available in very limited numbers in Canada and almost not at all in the US. This would be a great small bird to breed. I'm not well versed in the smaller birds but Galahs might be a good bet as well.

Honestly, I think that you are going to pay a lot of money for a business that is going to end up drowning you in the end. You're young and I totally understand your love for birds. If I could do something with birds for a living, I'd do it in a heart beat. With breeding, I think you just have to start slow though and really know what you are getting into. Get your life in order, get your degree, get yourself established with a career and then start your hobby. To me, it seems like you're jumping into it backward in an economy that is not good for this business right now.

 

[birdlvr466]

I have to agree with Jennifer. There are many ways to get involved with birds besides breeding. There are many rescues that need help, perhaps being a foster home for birds in need or getting involved with The World Parrot Trust, they have many projects to try and help parrots.

 

[TITANIS]

I'm in agreement with the others about considering to breed some of the rarer or endangered species, if breeding is absolutely what you want to get into. As examples, we need more HH breeders and hardly anyone breeds the RFM or Mealy Amazons here. Same for the rhamphastids and other softbills. These species will be difficult to acquire as breeding pairs either because of limited availability or expense, but it makes more sense in the long run for the improvement of aviculture in Canada. If big parrots are not your interest, maybe some of the rarer conures like the BTC would be to your liking? Having said that, breeding is tons of work and if done properly, won't make you a rich person, quite the contrary actually. Food for thought.

 

[jmfleish]

Yep, the RFMs are still rare in the US too and the Mealy Amazons are wonderful...these are all a little bigger but because they haven't already saturated the market, you would be doing a service for everyone by breeding them rather than filling up more rescues.

 

[Ming-Ming]

Sorry, about my comments today, I feel like I'm being a bit more moodier and touchier than usual.

I actually just got my wisdom teeth taken out a few days ago, so I'm kind of recovering and taking a lot of drugs that are really not helping!

 

[Deejo]

I'm in agreement with the others about considering to breed some of the rarer or endangered species, if breeding is absolutely what you want to get into. As examples, we need more HH breeders and hardly anyone breeds the RFM or Mealy Amazons here. Same for the rhamphastids and other softbills. These species will be difficult to acquire as breeding pairs either because of limited availability or expense, but it makes more sense in the long run for the improvement of aviculture in Canada. If big parrots are not your interest, maybe some of the rarer conures like the BTC would be to your liking? Having said that, breeding is tons of work and if done properly, won't make you a rich person, quite the contrary actually. Food for thought.

Thank you! These are the things I was trying to convey in my earlier message.
Food for thought indeed - very few breeders manage to break even, let alone make a profit.
Great advice you gave!

 

[srtiels]

It really is a lot of work and there isn't any money in it if you do it right. I think that was the point that Mercedez was really trying to get across. If you really want to breed, choose one or two species that you really like that need to be bred. I hate to sound nasty, but we don't need any more Cockatiels.
--------------------------------------------------

I tend to disagree with the above. At the time I decided to breed as my source of income I had an estasblished business that grossed $100,000 a year...BUT I was tired and burnt out. It was SHEER pleasure to walk away from that type of income and work with the birds and establish my own lines. It was feast or famine many times. There were times when I screwed up and lost the car, and had the phone off a time or two...BUT we weathered it because I was happy and LOVED what I did. As to myself I preferred to be poor and happy than rich and miserable.

I was also a single mother with 2 young children, and no child support or close relatives. I put myself in a sink or swim position and did the best I could.

I believe if someone WANTS to do something and believes in themselves enough they WILL succeed. When I bred I was faced with the same concerns as what has been expressed on this forum. I learned to be my own cheering section because there sure was not anyone else that was going to encourage or be supportive in advice.

 

[srtiels]

I hate to sound nasty, but we don't need any more Cockatiels.
----------------------------------
A survey really needs to be done on where all these excess cockatiels come from. I have learned that the majority of cockatiels out there are not from actual breeders, but from pet owners who's pair had babies. The downside of this is cockatiels over the years have not really improved in quality, health and size. Most pet owners have a pair of birds, do know jack s*** about genetics, or the background of their birds, or even if they are related or not. The most common pairings are two of the same color mutations, because this makes it easier to know what colors to expect in the babies. Most prefer to have the mutation colored babies, rather than have greys. The downside of this is that the next generation shows no improvement in size or quality...which is why the average pet cockatiel is 75-85 grams in weight.

Also the inexperienced breed/pet owner may or may not properly wean the babies. When they go out into a new home and relapse, it is the breeder (USED as a broad term encompasing everyone) that is at fault, rather than the individual person.

If Ming-Ming want to breed, let give some positive feedback. Also voice some ideas on how to improve the existing birds she will be working with.

As to myself I have my own goals...which many will be against, but the saying from Gone With The Wind: Frankly I don't give a ....applies. I am the one that has to walk in my shoes, and live with my choices, and it is not for others to object to, but repect my choices. My longterm plan is to be the largest mousebird breeder in the US. Why, because in researching the mousebird populations in captivity are slowly diminishing. The species is not a long lived species, and with some species the current adults are aged and past being reproductive. Few people are keeping track of bloodlines, or working with them to vary and increase gene pools per species. Ideally I would like to have a good supply of each species, and later on down the road work exclusively with other mousebird keepers, and zoos, for sale or trades.

 

[srtiels]

Ming-Ming,...I had to look, but below is the chapter outline for a book that if I ever completed it would be called 'The Survival Guide' Print it out and try to use some of the sections on things to research, learn, do etc....


Chapter 1...Before You Start (Is it going to be Business or Pleasure?)

1...Hobbyist (show or mutations), supplemental income, sole income.
2...A specific species or a mixed aviary (different species)
3...How many birds, space available. (Indoors or outdoors)
4...License and zoning
5...Sources for birds, clubs, organizations
6...Competition and selling outlets
7...Veterinarians
8...Misc thoughts/tips.
The purpose of the first chapter is to do research and planning for your new venture into cockatiel breeding.

Chapter 2...Buyer Beware!!! (Selecting breeding stock)

1...Sources for birds such as ads, breeders, etc. First Impressions
2...Cheap deals...you get what you pay for.
3...Proven breeders versus young stock
4..Purchasing single birds versus pairs.
5...Stick to the basic colors/mutations.
6...Virtues of a grey cockatiel
7...Simple color genetics
8...Reading bands, tracing birds
9.Visually determining splits to color and sexing cockatiels

Chapter 3...Tools of the Trade (cages, equipment, etc.)

1...Cage versus colony breeding
2...Indoor and outdoor caging requirements
3...Ideal locations for nestboxes, perches, bowls, etc
4...Diagrams on making cages and flights
5...Lighting (indoors), night lights, benefits of natural sunlight
6...Hot and cold weather problems and solutions
7...Dealing with varmints, predators, and pests
8...Theft prevention

Chapter 4...Let the Honeymoon Begin! ( Pair set-up and management)

1...Is it a ‘bonded’ or ‘bondage’ pair?
2...Birds want divorces too...re-pairing
3...How old is too old?
4...Seasonal breeding versus year round breeding. Rotation breeding
5...Single parents, same sexed parents, foster pairs, etc.
6...Young and Stupids (first timers)
7...Diet especially when there are babies
8...Never rely on Fertility powders and breeding supplements
9...Problem and abusive parents

Chapter 5...It’s easier than 1040 forms (keeping records)
1...Simple record keeping...manually or computerized
2...Banding babies
3...Forms of ID

**I still have more to add to this chapter**

Chapter 6... Yes Joanie, There is an Egg Fairy (fostering eggs and babies)

1...Candling eggs
2...When to foster eggs and babies
3...Working with pairs with reproductive problems
4...Egg repair and assist hatching
5...Dead in shell, cause and prevention
6...Assist feeding tiny babies while in the nest.
7...Recognizing problems with babies in the nest before it becomes a major problem
8...Yeast
9...Splay leg, beak disorders, etc.
10...Mites
***This chapter will be VERY detailed***

Chapter 7...Is there a Doctor in the House? (Basic techniques on emergency procedures with adults and babies)

1...Crop and digestive disorders
2...Egg binding, peritonitis, and prolapse
3...Leg band injuries and preventions
4...Zinc and other Toxicity problems
5...Giardia and other intestinal parasites
6...Eye problems
7... Detailed information on Emergency and Supportive care
8...Quarantine
9...Major disease outbreaks
***And lots of other informative info.!)

Chapter 8...Dr. Spock Doesn’t Apply (Nursery set-up, handfeeding, etc)

1...Brooders and incubators, commercial and handmade
2...Supplies to have on hand and sources
3...Selecting a vet.
4...Start a medicine Chest
5...Various handfeeding techniques
6...Commercial or homemade formulas
7..First signs of problems and what to do.
8...Basic baby/nursery care procedures

Chapter 9...Cutting the Apron Strings (Selling)

1...Coping with the first sale, which is more traumatic on you than the bird.
2...Types of sales such as: classifieds, pet shops, dealer/brokers, pros and cons
3...Weaned or from the nest
4...Sellers responsibility as to health
5...What to do if there is a death after a sale
7...Shipping birds

Chapter 10...When the Thrill is Gone (Coping with breeder burn-out, etc)

1...What is burn-out? How to overcome it.
2...Quitting and selling out
3...Retiring birds
4...Where do all the old birds go?
5...Sharing and passing along your knowledge and experiences

INDEX

 

[mask]

I don't know what it's like your side of the pond, but I don't know of a single person who makes an adequate living from soley breeding birds. I personally know a fair few bird dealers, and some do pocket a pretty wage, but their income comes from dry-goods, not the birds. Infact, the majority admit the birds rarely break even.

Call it a personal project rather than a business. Breed a rarer species of bird that needs help in captivity, like srtiels is doing with the mousebirds. Or breed a select species or two based around quality. There's plenty of breeders out there, but what this world needs is breeders who actually think about what they are breeding and the impact their breeding has on the hobby.

 

[Babybreau]

I'm in agreement with the others about considering to breed some of the rarer or endangered species, if breeding is absolutely what you want to get into. As examples, we need more HH breeders and hardly anyone breeds the RFM or Mealy Amazons here. Same for the rhamphastids and other softbills. These species will be difficult to acquire as breeding pairs either because of limited availability or expense, but it makes more sense in the long run for the improvement of aviculture in Canada. If big parrots are not your interest, maybe some of the rarer conures like the BTC would be to your liking?.

This and what others have said is an excellent idea!! We need more breeders of less common species!

Good luck!

 

[jmfleish]

We were discussing this on another list and this is what my Eclectus breeder had to say. She does greys and her single pair of Ekkies but is mostly interested in the rare species of Cockatoos and has Galah, Leadbeater, and Black Palm pairs. Thought this might be food for thought:

<<I belong to the professional breeder groups here on the internet and this very subject has been discussed on occasion. One of the first things that comes to my mind was when someone came to one of our groups and asked about making decent money breeding birds. The response from a long time respected breeder was that if you want to someday be a millionaire bird breeder, the best was is to start out as a billionaire, and hopefully in 10 years or so you might have a million left. My thought on that statement was that I can really relate it. Another time there was a discussion about how many breeders actually make money and I can't remember what percent was decided but it was somewhere around 10-15%. That number means that it certainly is possible to make money but it's not the norm.
Breeding birds is something one should do out of love for birds and not rely on to make any money. Most of the time another source of income is required to pay one's bills. There are so many things that can happen that one really has no control over. Birds need to be healthy and happy in order to breed. This requires money to have them vetted and money to feed them well and it's still no guarantee they will breed for you.

I have been breeding since the 90's. I invested a lot of money in birds, cages and equipment. I vet my birds regularly and feed them well. Some years I have a fair amount of babies and other years babies are few and far between. I have never made any money breeding. My expenses always run more than my income. Luckily my husband has a good job and pays all the bills here at home. Knowing what I know now I'm not sure I would do it again. I love the birds and I love taking care of the babies but it's a lot of work. Not only have I not made a profit on the birds but since their care is a full time job I cannot work for a salary outside the home. I'm sure I work harder cleaning and caring for the birds than I would at most paying jobs.>>