Free Flight.. is it frowned upon?

[ratgirl]

Shanlung, I'm not big on hysterical warnings. Why not instead give people an idea of how to find reputable trainers or criteria to arrive at well reasoned decision? You never felt comfortable with free flight, and that's fine. But some people do make that choice in a responsible way.

 

[shanlung]

Shanlung, I'm not big on hysterical warnings. Why not instead give people an idea of how to find reputable trainers or criteria to arrive at well reasoned decision? You never felt comfortable with free flight, and that's fine. But some people do make that choice in a responsible way.

How about you making up for my short comings and give well reasoned and thought out idea on finding reputable trainers and criteria to arrive at their well reasoned decision?
I am only a student

I defer to your expertise and calmness that obviously is lacking in me.

I take it you find what I wrote in my guidelines to do free flight to be alarmist and hysterical and not at all to the high standards that you have.

So do tell us all.

How to do Free Flight Outside

 

[shanlung]

Shanlung, I'm not big on hysterical warnings. Why not instead give people an idea of how to find reputable trainers or criteria to arrive at well reasoned decision? You never felt comfortable with free flight, and that's fine. But some people do make that choice in a responsible way.

I can only think of one trainer that I can most wholeheartedly recommend if you want to be good with birds.
Except he never considered himself to be a trainer at all.

I mentioned of Tsaoling Bird whisperer who opened my third eye into birdies and beasties. He stay in a remote hamlet of TsaoLing in the heart of Yushan (Jade Mountains) and Alishan mountain massif

The letters on that bird whisperer of Tsaoling are below in chronological order. They are all in Part 1 - Early Period of Tinkerbell.
wTsaoLing1
wTsaoling2
Tsaoling bird whisperer revisited
From: shan lung <shanlung9@y

The visits covered a period of time as can be seen from the date of the letters. You can see in between the 2nd and 3rd visits the additions to the birds of that bird whisperer.

He, that bird whisperer of Tsaoling, is the man that inspired me the most. If I had not the fortune to met and know him, I would not have the courage and inspiration to try with wild caught birdies at all.

If you have not done so, try to find the time to read
Tsaoling bird whisperer revisited
That was when he opened my third eye as to what keeping birdies were all about.

Problem is that he can only speak Chinese or Fujian dialect and almost a recluse.
You must have YuanFeng (Karmic Affinity) with him or he will politely nod his head at you , smile and walk away.

But why bother with going half the world away and may be rejected and learning a new language.
The best trainers are at hand with you.

Like for me.
I am only the trainee.
It is my birdies that are my real trainers.

Hope my answer will not be tarred and feathered for being hysterical and at most, entirely laughable.

Seek other experts for their great ideas to find reputable trainers or criteria to arrive at well reasoned decision.

 

[ratgirl]

How about you making up for my short comings and give well reasoned and thought out idea on finding reputable trainers and criteria to arrive at their well reasoned decision?
I am only a student

I defer to your expertise and calmness that obviously is lacking in me.

I take it you find what I wrote in my guidelines to do free flight to be alarmist and hysterical and not at all to the high standards that you have.

So do tell us all.

How to do Free Flight Outside

I've done that, on this thread and the one that started about Carly. But some of the best trainers that I personally know are Barbara Heidenreich, Hilary Hankey, Chris Shank, and some that are not professionals. It is REALLY helpful to have a mentor. I don't think learning this online is a smart way to go, but some people pull it off. We all have different learning styles. I would not be comfortable mentoring someone strictly online.

For me, a big part of it is having the right circumstances (an aviary, safe places to fly, mental tolerance, and a huge one, TIME). Free flight is a lifestyle, not a hobby. My next criteria is the right flight candidate. I am not a fan of flying very small birds, due to their snack sized nature. Some people do it well in flocks. Not my personal comfort level, and I don't want a big flock of birds

I like a large, loud bird, if possible. Well fledged, knowing that it's a bird. There are a few really good breeders. I wouldn't mind training an older bird, as long as it had never been clipped and was well fledged.

Anyway, that's where I'd start. Very simplistic, but you'd need a book.

 

[ratgirl]

I can only think of one trainer that I can most wholeheartedly recommend if you want to be good with birds.
Except he never considered himself to be a trainer at all.

I mentioned of Tsaoling Bird whisperer who opened my third eye into birdies and beasties. He stay in a remote hamlet of TsaoLing in the heart of Yushan (Jade Mountains) and Alishan mountain massif

The letters on that bird whisperer of Tsaoling are below in chronological order. They are all in Part 1 - Early Period of Tinkerbell.
wTsaoLing1
wTsaoling2
Tsaoling bird whisperer revisited
From: shan lung <shanlung9@y

The visits covered a period of time as can be seen from the date of the letters. You can see in between the 2nd and 3rd visits the additions to the birds of that bird whisperer.

He, that bird whisperer of Tsaoling, is the man that inspired me the most. If I had not the fortune to met and know him, I would not have the courage and inspiration to try with wild caught birdies at all.

If you have not done so, try to find the time to read
Tsaoling bird whisperer revisited
That was when he opened my third eye as to what keeping birdies were all about.

Problem is that he can only speak Chinese or Fujian dialect and almost a recluse.
You must have YuanFeng (Karmic Affinity) with him or he will politely nod his head at you , smile and walk away.

But why bother with going half the world away and may be rejected and learning a new language.
The best trainers are at hand with you.

Like for me.
I am only the trainee.
It is my birdies that are my real trainers.

Hope my answer will not be tarred and feathered for being hysterical and at most, entirely laughable.

Seek other experts for their great ideas to find reputable trainers or criteria to arrive at well reasoned decision.

Tsaoling sounds like an interesting man! I'm pretty sure he's not available to most of us, and doesn't appear to coach people for free flight, but he'd be a lot of fun to get to know and watch.

I don't consider most people to be 'experts' on too many things. Everyone that I know that free flys is a student. For one thing, there is never going to be 100% control of another being. If that's not acceptable, then free flight isn't for you. As you point out, there are risks. Most can be mitigated. Life is dangerous. I hear about captive birds that never go outside dying or being killed in accidents. We all accept risk at different levels. I think many of the fears people have are overrated, which is why reading over and over again in CAPITAL LETTERS that nobody should do free flight gets pretty old.

Your birds have had amazing lives. Different than many can do, or would do. But you both enjoy it immensly. That is the main thing.

 

[shanlung]

It is an irony that when the majority of birds are kept flighted nowadays, the vast majority of birds that are seen in lost lists are those that are clipped and thought safe and cannot fly away.

I never said people should not do free flights. What I say is

FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.
NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD

If you want to find fault with my warning, that is your privilege.

Excuse my highlighting of that, in addition to capital letters.
I have too many photos of my own free flights and I must compensate for my postings by putting up warnings.

On top of that, I been showing here videos of people from all walks of life in Taiwan free flying their birdies en mass.
They too, did it at the end of a very long process.

I found too many people want to read just want to read and see just what they want to see and not knowing free flights (at least deliberately ) is at end of a very long process of which not all can be written down.
At best, only the skeletal elements are written on by me. Relying on what I wrote and that alone can be a key to disaster as my subconscious process, being subconscious, cannot be written.

As for trainers, I said it so many times and over so many words.

I am the trainee and my birdies (and beasties) are my trainers. Why do folks rely on other folks when their own birds must be the one who will train them.
That some human with experience of their own birds will know your bird better than themselves and be the guru to tell them all about birds when at best they tell only of their own birds.

And if that human trainer did not tell you to listen to your bird, run away from him or her as quickly as you can.
Or am I again too alarmist and hysterical for telling folks that?


Sorry if that will not please the top dog (or top bird) who think they must be the trainer and remain at the top of the heap.
They get what they want to get and what they deserved.

 

[ratgirl]

It is an irony that when the majority of birds are kept flighted nowadays, the vast majority of birds that are seen in lost lists are those that are clipped and thought safe and cannot fly away.

I never said people should not do free flights. What I say is

FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.
NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD

If you want to find fault with my warning, that is your privilege.

Excuse my highlighting of that, in addition to capital letters.
I have too many photos of my own free flights and I must compensate for my postings by putting up warnings.

On top of that, I been showing here videos of people from all walks of life in Taiwan free flying their birdies en mass.
They too, did it at the end of a very long process.

I found too many people want to read just want to read and see just what they want to see and not knowing free flights (at least deliberately ) is at end of a very long process of which not all can be written down.
At best, only the skeletal elements are written on by me. Relying on what I wrote and that alone can be a key to disaster as my subconscious process, being subconscious, cannot be written.

As for trainers, I said it so many times and over so many words.

I am the trainee and my birdies (and beasties) are my trainers. Why do folks rely on other folks when their own birds must be the one who will train them.
That some human with experience of their own birds will know your bird better than themselves and be the guru to tell them all about birds when at best they tell only of their own birds.

And if that human trainer did not tell you to listen to your bird, run away from him or her as quickly as you can.
Or am I again too alarmist and hysterical for telling folks that?


Sorry if that will not please the top dog (or top bird) who think they must be the trainer and remain at the top of the heap.
They get what they want to get and what they deserved.

Just so I understand, you think you should learn to FREE FLY YOUR BIRDS, FROM YOUR BIRDS?

I realize that was all in capitals. If that is the case, then I can see why you try to dissuade others from doing it.

 

[shanlung]

Just so I understand, you think you should learn to FREE FLY YOUR BIRDS, FROM YOUR BIRDS?

I realize that was all in capitals. If that is the case, then I can see why you try to dissuade others from doing it.

Have I done something that I must be ashamed of and hide my face ?

I happily confessed to learning from my birdies, and my beasties and not from any humans.
I was inspired by my Bird Whisperer of Tsaoling and Do Not Shoot the dog by Karen Pyror read 14 years or so ago.

I think my birdies , and beasties much happier for that.
And I gained the magic from their friendship.
In the videos I uploaded, you can see the response from my birdies to be split second from cue given.
And my kitties came into ocean at my calls and Sieben came pounding and leaping and skidding in split second timing from my cues.

Few human trainers can get that kind of response from those that they ordered and screamed at. Even with their starvation methods oppss... food motivations.

And my birdies and beasties gained much more happiness from my listening to them and treating them as the intelligent cheeky sentients that I know they are.

 

[ratgirl]

Ooookay...

 

[shanlung]

More mass free flights in Taiwan, to be frightened at, or to be enjoyed, or both.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152547828528297

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152547711418297

Apologies to ratgirl for my repeating my frequent repeats.
But necessary in case some folks go and do what they see being done here.

FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.
NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD.

 

[ratgirl]

OK, so why do you keep showing pictures like that? Magazines that don't want people let their cats and birds play together do not accept photos of them together for publication.

This smacks of do as I say, not as I do.

 

[shanlung]

OK, so why do you keep showing pictures like that? Magazines that don't want people let their cats and birds play together do not accept photos of them together for publication.

This smacks of do as I say, not as I do.

You should take care of your extreme mood swings as that cannot be good for you or anyone.

First I was castigated for being a wimp and hysterical in my warnings to others that free flight is life and death and not to try this yourself unless you do know.
Then screaming at me for showing VIDEOS of folks in Taiwan doing free flights. Lots of folks, folks like me who accepted training by their birds and not some kind
of boffin spouting Applied Behavior Analysis and Operant conditioning and other words of many sounds as if the more sounds in a word the more effective that word can be.

I said before a Zen saying that one should not mistake the finger pointing to the moon as the moon itself. I learned that long time ago when I tried teaching the Birdwhisperer of Tsaoling how to use clicker
training to train birds not realising who was I (maybe very good in clicker training) compared to him when his birds were wild, flying out to poop in his garden and flying back in to play with him.

Training to me is more than conditioned of reflexes , or as you said antecendents that precede the behavior and the consequences that maintain it. All operant (learned behavior) works this way. The other type of behavior is respondent, which is only affected by antecedents, whereas operant behavior is a function of it's consequences. I do not even understand what all that meant. No reflection on you and more a reflection on my incompetence in understanding mutli-syllibic words

But then, excuse my writing like the peasant that I am and no match at all for you with your many years in Applied Behavior Analysis.

To avoid difficulties with you, perhaps I should pm to you what I want to write for your approval before I post it.

If you do not mind, this is the last posting that I be making to you.
So you can have the last word.

I rather write on happier things, and other things useful or interesting to other nice folks here even if you do not approve of whatever I write or post.
Walk your way in peace and happiness.

With the world pass the tipping point, my main goal in life is to max my happiness and min my aggro to enjoy the last few years of life as we know it.

 

[LaSelva]

Shanlung, If you don't understand a particular field, or don't care to (because you prefer sentimental terms to technical ones), why thumb your nose in a passive aggressive tone at its terms, practices, proponents, etc? So you had access to a guru atop a mountain somewhere - fine. For the rest of the world, animal handling methods, husbandry methods, as well as welfare, have improved as has any other science. Not only through study but also through our ability to disseminate information and understanding through common/proper terminology.

A question is asked and you infer a mood swing. Personally I've seen you backhandedly degrade people many times whose only fault was attempting to engage you in an intelligent exchange. Only to bow out of the discussion to go "smell roses" and other leisurely things that have suddenly become more worthy of your time. The inconsistency is that you portray yourself as a humble student yet you get bent out of shape quickly when your writing (often in a self-important tone) is not praised.

 

[shanlung]

.

What guru on top of what mountain?
My trainers are my birdies and beasties. You do not have them?
What bird have you got? Some kind of Norwegian Blue?

So I am to bow and proclaim Emperor clothings very beautiful because it is so said?
While I do not do that, my spare time to talk here is drawing to a close.
I am sure my absence will be most welcomed by you and those like you.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

Free flight or any activity with a bird or other animal is ok if you know what you are doing. Free flying a bird has often been misinterpreted in how it is done so caution is always provided. Different activities for different people. Learn about it

 

[ratgirl]

LaSelva, I thought about modal action patterns a lot today. It occurred to me that species with higher intelligence, have it because they need it. A brain is an expensive thing. Usually that means they have a more complex ethology. Which also means they have more to teach their young to survive, and usually a longer natal period. Birds like corvids and parrots come to mind immediately.

I would think this would give them more flexibility in their MAPs. But then, even birds who fledge from a nest cavity and immediately fly, have to learn, and quickly, to fly better. When you look at the survival rate of fledglings, it's really low. Lower in the less intelligent species who don't spend a lot of time teaching the young. They compensate by producing larger clutches, or more of them. Species like corvids and parrots invest a lot more time into one or two offspring, for a much longer time. Families may stay together for years.

 

[shanlung]

I find it amusing that this thread is on free flight, and in a section called airport that innuendoes were made that what I have shown should not be shown at all.
That I cannot and presumably must not show simple folks in Taiwan doing what I have been doing.
Perhaps because they could not speak multisyllibic words ?
I can, but prefer not to use those words as what is the point?

I recalled another saying that those who can , go and do.
I and them, walk the walk. Others can go and talk and talk.

If you want powerful sounding words and theory, go to those that give you such words and theory.
I still have yet to see free flights done by them.

Below is a video, click on it to see the video, just shot today by my friends in Taiwan.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=546951775441956

 

[KTwonders]

Ratgirl, as a new person to this board, I'd like to thank you for your well reasoned and concise explanation on the pro's and con's of free flight. It has left me with a greater appreciation as to the benefits of having flighted birds, while helping showing me that free flight outdoors wouldn't be something I am comfortable with. Again, many thanks!

 

[ratgirl]

I'm glad, KT I am a strong believer in flight for birds, but I will be the first to admit that outdoor free flight is not a good idea for everyone. Aviaries, on the other hand, I'm a huge fan of!

And Shanlung, any time you want to watch my bird free fly, you just come on by. And I don't fly him on a fishing pole

 

[shanlung]

I'm glad, KT I am a strong believer in flight for birds, but I will be the first to admit that outdoor free flight is not a good idea for everyone. Aviaries, on the other hand, I'm a huge fan of!

And Shanlung, any time you want to watch my bird free fly, you just come on by. And I don't fly him on a fishing pole

Ha ha ha ha!

Go do better innuedoes.

I have thousand more such photos
What have you got?
Words with many many syllibles and more powerful sounding words?

And remember Riamfada a wild caught from the open ID ring and perhaps she was 5-6 years when she first was given to my charge. Her free flights were after about a year with me.
I remain her very good student.

I rather not respond to you. But blatant falsehoods must be shown to be falsehood.
Especially if that lie is said and said deliberately.

I still have to say

FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.
NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD.