Um, really? Eclectus parrots (and many other species) don't even reach sexual maturity until they're 2-3 years of age, so if they were dying within a year, they'd be extinct in the wild.
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- Thread starter Vickiesbirds
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She didn't say that they all died. I don't know about Eclectus but it is normal for the mortality rate to be quite high for most young birds. Young birds all seem to suffer from a bad case of the stupid, which tends not to be conducive with staying alive :/
waterfaller1
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Well, I recently defended myself, and all of you..TWICE. I have a friend{exfriend now...and we have known each other for over 30 years} who has recently gone on a tangent about how myself, and "all of my friends" are animal abusers, because we keep birds in cages,etc...
Yes, I feel also they should be flying free. I also think even though I give them the biggest cages, it's still not big enough.
Then I think how many people raked Mare over the coals for having the best of both worlds...a bird who flies free, but chooses to be with her sometimes too..practically daily! To me she has it made.
BUT, I don't feel any of my friends are animal abusers.
Yes, I feel also they should be flying free. I also think even though I give them the biggest cages, it's still not big enough.
Then I think how many people raked Mare over the coals for having the best of both worlds...a bird who flies free, but chooses to be with her sometimes too..practically daily! To me she has it made.
BUT, I don't feel any of my friends are animal abusers.
I know she didn't say all, but she did say most. Besides, with that logic, you could justify the forced "adoption" of native Africans. An exorbitant number of them die due to genocide, civil war, starvation, malnutrition, and so on. But that wouldn't make marching over there and snatching them from their homeland the right thing to do. I know we all try to give parrots a good life in captivity, but the fact of the matter is, they should never have been taken from their natural habitat to begin with.
None us are animal abusers. That's a terrible accusation for your friend to make.
sodakat
Rollerblading along the road
I was speaking of the mortality rate. I do not know the exact percentage but I stand by "most" as that's what I've read. I cannot find any field studies to back this up right now and would be happy to look at any that say otherwise.
I cannot seriously consider there is any similarity between enslaving people and keeping parrots.
I cannot seriously consider there is any similarity between enslaving people and keeping parrots.
I didn't say enslave, I said forcibly adopt. As in taking their children to America, Europe, Australia...to have a "better life". Parrots are highly intelligent, highly emotional beings, and I think there's a lot of suffering on their part that we may not be aware of. Do you think that when they see birds flying around outside through the window, that they don't long for that on some basic level? It's their instinct. Again, I'm not judging anyone. I don't think any of us are the ones snatching wild parrots out of the trees and smuggling them in for the pet trade. My point is simply that they shouldn't be here in the first place. But here they are, and we love them like children, and do the best we can for them.
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The high mortality rate of young birds is simply a good illustration of how difficult life in the wild can be. There is the risk of starvation, predation, death from attacks from others of the same species, suffering from a high parisite burden, injury from various means. It is not all roses and unicorns but wild parrots don't know any different and can enjoy what instinct tells them to do.
A pet parrot that is captive born, knows nothing other than captivity. It does however have the same set of instincts as a wild parrot but these can be indulged by allowing flight, providing company (human and/or bird), providing foraging toys and branches to chew etc. A parrot has no idea that it is supposed to be outside in a tree so as long as it has these things it can be happy. Furthermore, it has no need to keep a constant eye out for predators or to have to worry about the supply of food and water so it can probably actually spend a higher proportion of its life being 'happy' than a wild bird.
A pet parrot that is captive born, knows nothing other than captivity. It does however have the same set of instincts as a wild parrot but these can be indulged by allowing flight, providing company (human and/or bird), providing foraging toys and branches to chew etc. A parrot has no idea that it is supposed to be outside in a tree so as long as it has these things it can be happy. Furthermore, it has no need to keep a constant eye out for predators or to have to worry about the supply of food and water so it can probably actually spend a higher proportion of its life being 'happy' than a wild bird.
sodakat
Rollerblading along the road
I can only speak for myself. I DO NOT feel guilty. However I have over my time as a bird keeper made changes in how I keep them in order to give them more enriched lives or what I consider to be more enriched lives. This is why I keep a single species, why I encourage them to have companions, why I divided my living room in half to create a bird room, why I built an outside aviary, etc.
Having said all that, I don't think parrots make good pets for most people. I'm not talking about us eccentric parrot keepers. I'm talking about 20 year old college kids who think it would be cool to have a bird that talks who can ride around on their shoulder, or a 35 year old woman whose kid wants a parrot and she wants to give her kid whatever he wants.
I know nothing about forced adoption and really don't care to discuss something I'm ignorant of.
Having said all that, I don't think parrots make good pets for most people. I'm not talking about us eccentric parrot keepers. I'm talking about 20 year old college kids who think it would be cool to have a bird that talks who can ride around on their shoulder, or a 35 year old woman whose kid wants a parrot and she wants to give her kid whatever he wants.
I know nothing about forced adoption and really don't care to discuss something I'm ignorant of.
It was a hypothetical.
Actually that is very typical. I haven't been able to find much info on parrots specifically, but just to use a quick example I can think of - only 1/15 barn owls make it past their first year and they do not breed til they are 2 or 3. Those who do make it past the first few difficult years will usually live long enough to breed for a few years and can produce 2 clutches of babies a year if there is enough food. Remember, for a population to be stable, a pair only has to produce, on average, two babies that survive long enough to breed. Most wild parrots, except the largest species, will breed 2x a year or more. With the smaller parrots, a clutch may be 5 or 6 or more babies. Obviously the vast majority of those babies do not breed - or there would be a population explosion of parrots. Most die before breeding age or do not successfully find and defend a nest site That's another thing - competition for good nest hollows can be fierce and many wild parrots will also never experience raising chicks. Sometimes a pair will steal a nest site from another pair and kill that pair's chicks.
A wild parrot tends to live a short life that will end by being ripped apart and eaten alive by a hawk or other predator. Parrots that are sick, weak, injured, old, or just can't quite keep up with the flock for whatever reason are easy pickings for predators.
I think it is natural for us to want the best for our pets. It would be nice to have a huge fenced yard and a pond for my dog, but I do not. I don't think he misses such things that much. Along the same lines. I thought my birds would enjoy an aviary and built them one... big enough to enclose a small tree. But you know what? Even after spending many, many hours sitting in the aviary with them, they did not enjoy it or relax fully in it. That whole big sky to scan for predators always kept them a little on edge. I don't think they were unhappy outside, really, but they always seemed a bit relieved and ready for a nap when I brought them in.
I really think that parrots at good zoos or even good breeders that keep them in pairs or flocks in very large flights probably enjoy a better quality of life than most wild parrots. As for pets, well the way people care for their birds can just vary so much. Certainly there are many parrots who are neglected, fed poor diets, or kept in too-small cages, but there are also many happy, healthy, loved birds who live much longer and healthier lives than wild parrots.
Vickiesbirds
Strolling the yard
I will definitely be looking into that book!!
my ollie was wild caught. he's been in captivity for a minimum of 31 years. but when he first came here he was angry. hostile. unhappy. when i looked in his eyes i could see, he remembered. today, 2 1/2 years later, he's a happy guy. he plays more each day. he gets his favorite food: ritz crackers. i can look in his eyes and i see a different bird in there.
now lets look at it from a different point of view. i've never been rich. i've worked since i was 15 years old. even then, my paycheck went to the family, it bought our food. now do i feel like i have missed out cause i have never known what it was like to have extra money in the bank? i remember when the only time we had hot dogs AND macaroni and cheese for dinner was when mom got overtime. otherwise, that was two meals. do i feel like i missed out? of course not. its all i've ever known. the same goes for most of our birds. you cant miss what you've never known. now they have instincts that tell them to mate and create another generation, true. and most of us dont allow our birds to follow thru on their instincts. but look at all the wild ones that dont create young for various reasons. who cant find a suitable mate. it happens out there, too.
look at dusty. rehab. release. back in the hospital. he was better off in the cage!
do i feel bad sometimes? of course i do. but i didnt create the world, i just try to live in it. i give what i have to give. make whatever small contribution i can. and try every day to do what i believe is right. if i had a wild bird waddle up to me... if i could easily take him and put him in my livingroom... would i do it? nope, not for a second. but i dont feel guilty for having my birds because i know that had ollie been left in the wild, the chances of him still being alive at 31 are so very slim the actual numbers are mind boggling.
now do ya wanna start debating surviving v/s living? do our captive birds survive or live? how about the wild ones? are they surviving or living? talk about a quicksand topic!
now lets look at it from a different point of view. i've never been rich. i've worked since i was 15 years old. even then, my paycheck went to the family, it bought our food. now do i feel like i have missed out cause i have never known what it was like to have extra money in the bank? i remember when the only time we had hot dogs AND macaroni and cheese for dinner was when mom got overtime. otherwise, that was two meals. do i feel like i missed out? of course not. its all i've ever known. the same goes for most of our birds. you cant miss what you've never known. now they have instincts that tell them to mate and create another generation, true. and most of us dont allow our birds to follow thru on their instincts. but look at all the wild ones that dont create young for various reasons. who cant find a suitable mate. it happens out there, too.
look at dusty. rehab. release. back in the hospital. he was better off in the cage!
do i feel bad sometimes? of course i do. but i didnt create the world, i just try to live in it. i give what i have to give. make whatever small contribution i can. and try every day to do what i believe is right. if i had a wild bird waddle up to me... if i could easily take him and put him in my livingroom... would i do it? nope, not for a second. but i dont feel guilty for having my birds because i know that had ollie been left in the wild, the chances of him still being alive at 31 are so very slim the actual numbers are mind boggling.
now do ya wanna start debating surviving v/s living? do our captive birds survive or live? how about the wild ones? are they surviving or living? talk about a quicksand topic!
sodakat
Rollerblading along the road
Thank you Karen and Beth for the wonderful posts! I really enjoyed reading both.
STOP PUTTING NATURE AND LIVING A WILD FREE LIFE INTO THE EQUATION ABOUT KEEPING COMPANION PARROTS!
None of my birds were ever born in the wild, and they have no idea how to survive in the wild, and taking them out and freeing them so they could live naturally is a death sentence to them. So stop, right now mourning for a life your birds, or my birds, never knew or never will know. THEY WERE HATCHED COMPANION PARROTS BECAUSE HUMANS WANTED TO HAVE THEM AS PETS.
Someone selfishly took their ancestors out of the jungle and decided to keep them in a human habitat because the parrots were cute and funny and nice to look at. Now they and their decendants are here, captive but not yet domesticated, and they live a mixed up life listening to their wild hormones and instincts while trying to adjust to what their human captors want from them. Those parrot slaves that do adapt, have a really, really good life, as far as slaves go: good food, fun, warm cages, sometimes mates and babies.
If you love your parrot companions, STOP blaming yourself for taking them in and loving them. Instead celebrate the fact you have good relationships with your parrot captives and strive to find ways to make their lives better. Fact the fact: if people do not keep companion parrots, then all parrots in captivity all need to be euthanized and disposed of just like all those unloved dogs and cats humans also keep as slaves and indescriminately allow to breed. Is that what you want for the future of companion parrots?
Yes, advocate for better ways of breeding, advocate for breeders who will help the parrot to domesticate themselves, take whatever captive parrots you feel you can care for and love into your home and help them to live in good health and comfortable ways.
BUT STOP CRYING FOR AND FEELING GUILTY ABOUT THINGS YOU CANNOT CHANGE. That is a total waste of time and effort and money. Do what you can to help captive parrots have a better life. Love the ones you have and give out as much information on having captive parrots for pets. Let people know it is not like having a dog or cat; it is a special relationship and needs other resources from the human to make it work.
IT IS TIME WE STOP WAILING IN GUILT ABOUT PARROTS BEING PETS AND JUST GET ON WITH HELPING THEM BECOME DOMESTICATED AND FIND GOOD, LOVING HOMES.
End of Rant
None of my birds were ever born in the wild, and they have no idea how to survive in the wild, and taking them out and freeing them so they could live naturally is a death sentence to them. So stop, right now mourning for a life your birds, or my birds, never knew or never will know. THEY WERE HATCHED COMPANION PARROTS BECAUSE HUMANS WANTED TO HAVE THEM AS PETS.
Someone selfishly took their ancestors out of the jungle and decided to keep them in a human habitat because the parrots were cute and funny and nice to look at. Now they and their decendants are here, captive but not yet domesticated, and they live a mixed up life listening to their wild hormones and instincts while trying to adjust to what their human captors want from them. Those parrot slaves that do adapt, have a really, really good life, as far as slaves go: good food, fun, warm cages, sometimes mates and babies.If you love your parrot companions, STOP blaming yourself for taking them in and loving them. Instead celebrate the fact you have good relationships with your parrot captives and strive to find ways to make their lives better. Fact the fact: if people do not keep companion parrots, then all parrots in captivity all need to be euthanized and disposed of just like all those unloved dogs and cats humans also keep as slaves and indescriminately allow to breed. Is that what you want for the future of companion parrots?
Yes, advocate for better ways of breeding, advocate for breeders who will help the parrot to domesticate themselves, take whatever captive parrots you feel you can care for and love into your home and help them to live in good health and comfortable ways.
BUT STOP CRYING FOR AND FEELING GUILTY ABOUT THINGS YOU CANNOT CHANGE. That is a total waste of time and effort and money. Do what you can to help captive parrots have a better life. Love the ones you have and give out as much information on having captive parrots for pets. Let people know it is not like having a dog or cat; it is a special relationship and needs other resources from the human to make it work.
IT IS TIME WE STOP WAILING IN GUILT ABOUT PARROTS BEING PETS AND JUST GET ON WITH HELPING THEM BECOME DOMESTICATED AND FIND GOOD, LOVING HOMES.
End of Rant
Mare
Hit the Road
My free flyer, Amigo, was NEVER content being in a cage when he first came here, to us, nor two years later. This is why we made the decision to do what we did with him. He had never flown freely either, before we set him free and when he is in his cage, now, he is content but he is allowed to fly free most days. That is the way HE is. Our Sassy Goffin's would be a basket case out there flying freely, I truly think she would die of a heart attack before she could starve to death or be taken out by a hawk. Birds that are hand raised may, or may not, be ready mentally to adapt to being free. I don't believe that cockatoos, living freely without human help for food, in California, could survive.
If we all do the best we can, with the animals that are depending on us to take care of them, bless us all!
If we all do the best we can, with the animals that are depending on us to take care of them, bless us all!
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That was not leveled at you, Mare. Amigo is a rare and wonderful free flying bird and you do very well with him. I am talking about the futility of blaming ourselves for having captive parrots. Useless use of energy and time.
Just love your birds and care for them the best you can.
Just love your birds and care for them the best you can.
cassiesdad
Ripping up the road
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Well put....STOP PUTTING NATURE AND LIVING A WILD FREE LIFE INTO THE EQUATION ABOUT KEEPING COMPANION PARROTS!
None of my birds were ever born in the wild, and they have no idea how to survive in the wild, and taking them out and freeing them so they could live naturally is a death sentence to them. So stop, right now mourning for a life your birds, or my birds, never knew or never will know. THEY WERE HATCHED COMPANION PARROTS BECAUSE HUMANS WANTED TO HAVE THEM AS PETS.
If you love your parrot companions, STOP blaming yourself for taking them in and loving them. Instead celebrate the fact you have good relationships with your parrot captives and strive to find ways to make their lives better. Fact the fact: if people do not keep companion parrots, then all parrots in captivity all need to be euthanized and disposed of just like all those unloved dogs and cats humans also keep as slaves and indescriminately allow to breed. Is that what you want for the future of companion parrots?
Yes, advocate for better ways of breeding, advocate for breeders who will help the parrot to domesticate themselves, take whatever captive parrots you feel you can care for and love into your home and help them to live in good health and comfortable ways.
BUT STOP CRYING FOR AND FEELING GUILTY ABOUT THINGS YOU CANNOT CHANGE. That is a total waste of time and effort and money. Do what you can to help captive parrots have a better life. Love the ones you have and give out as much information on having captive parrots for pets. Let people know it is not like having a dog or cat; it is a special relationship and needs other resources from the human to make it work.
IT IS TIME WE STOP WAILING IN GUILT ABOUT PARROTS BEING PETS AND JUST GET ON WITH HELPING THEM BECOME DOMESTICATED AND FIND GOOD, LOVING HOMES.
End of Rant
I personally don't think parrots, polar bears, tiger, sharks, whales, chimpanzees, etc, will ever truly be domesticated. And yes I strive for better parrot care. Breeder care, housing, welfare, education, etc. But that doesn't mean I cannot feel bad for caging my birds. Moby HATES the cage and he looks at me pitifully every time he's in there. Its not the life I would wish on anyone but all I can do is strive for the best, educate, BE educated and continue to try and make them happy.
All of you who don't live with guilt when you have to put your intelligent companion into a cage, good for you. But I feel that with my guilt I have a conscience of their suffering.
This is just my take on this and I'm not aiming it at anyone. If I had my own home and lots of acres I would build a huge aviary or do what Mare does
All of you who don't live with guilt when you have to put your intelligent companion into a cage, good for you. But I feel that with my guilt I have a conscience of their suffering.
This is just my take on this and I'm not aiming it at anyone. If I had my own home and lots of acres I would build a huge aviary or do what Mare does
would you feel guilty if you came upon a train wreck after the fact? as you tried to clean up and help those injured would you feel personal responsibility for their suffering? i know that there are some who will say 'yes' and genuinely mean it. but i dont waste energy feeling guilt over things beyond my control and/or injustices that happen through no action of my own.
not many of us here were directly involved in bringing these parrots from the wild. we are simply trying to help clean up the mess and ease whatever suffering we can.
i may feel bad for some of their lots in life, but guilt? nope. i hated to see caleb so unhappy in his cage. so he has his own bedroom and lives cage free... so to speak. he's happier by far with his situation.
i prefer to be proactive. if i am unhappy with something in my life, i change it. if i cant change it, i accept it.
not many of us here were directly involved in bringing these parrots from the wild. we are simply trying to help clean up the mess and ease whatever suffering we can.
i may feel bad for some of their lots in life, but guilt? nope. i hated to see caleb so unhappy in his cage. so he has his own bedroom and lives cage free... so to speak. he's happier by far with his situation.
i prefer to be proactive. if i am unhappy with something in my life, i change it. if i cant change it, i accept it.
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