Cross Breeding Parrots. Your Thoughts?

[ZoeyFredrik]

I am not sure about it. I guess it does not seem to bother me as much when it is two similar species (ex. a jenday and sun conure). I saw a mix of some sort of conure and a small macaw at a bird fair a while back. I am still not sure what to think about that. Yesterday I saw a mix of a nanday and sun conure, the breeder called it a nan-sun. He looked like a nanday to me.

 

[waterfaller1]

I don't think it is fair to assume that all people who breed hybrids " are greedy breeders who just want to make a buck"
Birds that are here in the states at least, cannot be released back in the wild, so I don't see what impact it has there or that as an issue either.

 

[TextsFromParrots]

Then what reason would there be to mix genes and make hybrids, Carole? Are they doing it to not make money? Because then I'm really confused! Looking on birdbreeders.com and a few other places, hybrids are all priced higher than normal blue and golds, scarlets, etc.

 

[Laurul Feather Cat]

There are actually two interesting ideas in this issue that deserve deep thought:

1 - Breeding hybrid parrots for the pet trade could take the pressure off the wild populations as well as encourage breeders to actually try and produce a domesticated parrot by genetic selection and possibly gene-surgery.

2 - Why do we need to breed hybrids; we don't have enough homes for the non-hybrids we have now. There has been more than enough damage done with breeders using any sub-species of parrots in the same genus, contributing to the loss of the original species/sub-species rainbow of colors. One of the most abused species is the Senegal, pairing different subspecies together for the sake of just plain producing babies to sell. Now we have just two lines, the solid yellow breast and the yellow/Orange breast. The original subspecies were a wonderful rainbow of colors; and as the subspecies are persecuted and eliminated from their specialized habitats, will be lost soon due to extinction.

There was recently a huge discussion of hybrid parrots, mainly macaws, and also this other article:
http://forums.avianavenue.com/index.php?threads/breeding-a-domesticated-parrot.108977/

 

[LaSelva]

Yes, absolutely right about the deep thought part. I think that we should generally not jump into something unless it's carefully considered. But, historically it doesn't seem that's been the case. In domestication it's as if we want to see what we can accomplish first and deal with consequences later. In aviculture it's been "learn as you go." I'll quote from a hybrid-breeder website: "One could say that hybrid macaws, as we know them, are primarily the product of civilization & globalization. At this time there is not enough recorded data for comparison to make general conclusions regarding the hybrid offspring, health, life span, temperament, coloring & genetic viability for future breeding." Again, considering this (the unknowns), imo why do it? Nature excerts selective pressure far better than we do and in cases where we've done so for particular traits, we've brought about adverse side effects. A topic unto itself that this short article doesn't go far into.

But the linked article is interesting food for thought and although in some areas is speculative on what the future could bring, the ideas brought up are worth exploring further (and some, such as why trapped parrots don't survive may have alternate explanations). The Forbes' parakeet example in particular would be a good use for cross breeding if, as he admits, done in a thoughtful and controlled manner. But he's right in distinguishing between 1) selecitve breeding done for conservation, 2) the general, even unintentioal, selective pressures excerted in aviculture (the pet trade) and 3) any possible intentional breeding for "pet" qualities (not sure if this is being done with birds).

He's laying out the science behind the possibilities, but in the end, I think he's basing his outlook on the benefits of cross-breeding for the future on the assumption that aviculture would be organized, responsible, and deliberate in it's efforts. But I think the reality is closer to what most people here are saying.

In addition, domestication is not always an answer as even a dog can have issues with the human lifetsyle if finds itself in. Despite domestication, they still need to socialize, roam, explore, etc. Many things our compartmentalized (cooped up, fenced in) lives deny them today that years ago did not. And that causes behavioral issues in them. Even domeisticated animals have natural needs. Hybrids are being produced though (the local bird stores have lots of them) and generally speaking there are no regulations on breeding or keeping lines pure in the way some above are suggesting would be acceptable. Aviculture is like the wild west for the most part.

Also want to point out for consideration that, although the importation bans have done so, domestic breeding doesn't seem to be helping wild populations. I would like that to be true but it's simply a myth it seems. The case continues to be that any financial transaction involving parrots anywhere puts a price on their heads in the wild. No matter what it is, if it's popular as a pet it will be taken from the wild. It happened with the snowy owl due to the popularity of the film Harrry Potter. The fact that parrots are pets makes them worth something to local people who may face poverty or no other way to feed their families. Realistically I cannot expect people of a poverty stricken country to adopt my environmental ethics. Snatching them from the wild and having a finished product to sell will always be easier for some than taking the time to breed them - the market certainly seems to be there. Sadly parrot populations can't afford that, not the way things are looking these days. I can only urge people to look at the sad situation faced by African Grey speices. Trappers deplete the population in one area and then move on to another. And this is probably, worldwide, the most popular and bred parrot of all.

Not trying to debate these issues just pointing out things I've read. As well as continue along the lines of what your saying, and that is, that alot has to be brought to the table before making conclusions on how their future should be approached. So, you're right.

 

[pixie]

I had not thought about it really but now I have I can't really see the point of breeding hybrids for the pet market.
We have what I think is a galah x corella that visits our yard.

 

[brdfvr]

I had not thought about it really but now I have I can't really see the point of breeding hybrids for the pet market.
We have what I think is a galah x corella that visits our yard.

some countries have wild birds that brred together, for example, the galahs

 

[Klomonx]

Although I can't help but find birds like 'Sunday' Conues colourful and cute (Sun x Jenday), my main beef with them is that unlike dogs, birds are of a different species. Mixing dogs of the same species isn't as bad as mixing different species of birds, something that just doesn't sit well with me - similarly to mixing a Wolf with a Dog.
Also breeding to make a quick buck is low and bad, but I take that to be a secondary issue.

 

[macawpower58]

I often times think about the different dietary needs some of the parrots have, especially birds like the Hy. What do you feed a hybrid that has parents that come from totally different geological areas? Are the birds needs different now they're mixed? Or does it differ from baby to baby?

 

[parrotkid]

I often times think about the different dietary needs some of the parrots have, especially birds like the Hy. What do you feed a hybrid that has parents that come from totally different geological areas? Are the birds needs different now they're mixed? Or does it differ from baby to baby?

Yes! That's a very good way to look at it! Like, How can you feed a bird if they have different diets?

 

[EmilyS]

I'm a bit new at this parrot stuff, but I have tons of experience with reptiles, so I hope you'll forgive this comparison, even though this is a parrot forum, there are a lot of parallels and I hope you see the similarities.

There was a similar argument regarding small pythons call "ball python".
Some people crossed the "ball python" (4-5') with a "blood python" (9-15') to create something called a "superball". A 6-8', new species.

Here is the fallout since then:
- native species once severely diminished for the pet trade have thrived, wild numbers are back to normal
- hybrids sometimes CAN reproduce with each other, the proven mating pairs are what created a new species altogether
- there are now thousands of these animals, healthy, happy, in good homes, completely domesticated, engineered for life with people.

What is really cool:
- the new hybrid, although larger, is tamer than its predecessors
- selectively bred for health, fertility, and its calm demeanor, and its ability to eat eggs, which is more inviting for potential care takers.
-It needs less heat to live, and less humidity compared to its parents.
- Pretty much the best beginner snake there is out there, and it was due to hybridization.

My point:
Bird hybrids may not be a bad thing overall, BUT the intention to conserve species also has to be there too.
The health of the birds HAS to be taken into account, and the breeders shouldn't be looking to make a buck.
Revolutionizing the bird industry is a MAJORLY controversial topic, because of how many unknowns there are. However I don't think that anyone could deny that if it worked out in our favour, we would be really grateful to be able to leave wild species alone and have fun with a new and beautiful addition to the world of birds.
I don't think that there is much harm in testing the hypothesis, so long as the breeders are responsible (keeping every single chick, and monitoring them) and are incredibly knowledgeable about the potential outcomes.

 

[EmilyS]

Yes! That's a very good way to look at it! Like, How can you feed a bird if they have different diets?

By offering both diets and seeing what they are inclined to eat!

 

[Monica]

First off.... most hybrids are actually fertile! Most hybrids are actually healthy birds! Sure, some do have health problems.... but this is more in regards to birds who's parent species were not closely enough related. The majority of the hybrid parrots you see in the pet trade (and often ones you don't realize are hybrids!) are the result of pairing similar species/subspecies together.

Second.... not all hybrids are the result of greed! I've seen many hybrids come about because the owners didn't know their two pet birds could reproduce! (re: green cheek conure x sun conure hybrids) Some owners didn't even realize they had two different species! (re: orange wing amazon x blue front amazon) And then you have the owners who have two pet birds that "love" each other, and now the birds are "married", so it's only "natural" to allow the two birds to reproduce! (biggest face palm ever! please give me one moment to go bang my head against a brick wall! )

Third.... if you are an owner of a senegal, green cheek conure, blue front amazon, yellow nape amazon, eclectus, possibly blue crown conures, mitred conures, sulphur crested cockatoo, or any other species that has a subspecies or a *very similar* looking species counterpart, you could have a hybrid. Apparently, wild green cheek conures and maroon bellied conures share a trait within their genetic code that no other Pyrrhura conures have. This indicates that the species could have easily hybridized in the wild. Then you have all the different subspecies of each species which was imported into the pet trade. Now, people either don't care about the subspecies, or they aren't even aware there are different subspecies of these conures. And they hybridize the subspecies! This doesn't even go into the fact that some people can't tell the difference between a green cheek conure and a maroon bellied conure. It's a really sad fact, and I wonder how many people out there have hybrids and don't even know it. What's worse is that many times the hybrids end up looking like pure birds. Even some of the macaw hybrids can look like pure birds, especially to the untrained eye.



I can't easily answer the poll... I am against hybrids, as I have come to love the difference traits of the different species and subspecies! And you know what? Just because you don't think that our pet birds will never be used to repopulate an endangered species, think again! Many people agree that the movie Rio is based on the last spix macaw kept within captivity. He was a *PET* bird. He was then sent to a *BREEDING* program! Sadly, he ended up being infertile. I also recall another owner/breeder that had a red fronted macaw. She ended up getting another red fronted macaw and sent her first one into a breeding situation! He went from being a pet to probably being a breeder bird now! And his goal in life is to breed, raise chicks and then *HIS* offspring would be raised to be released into the wild, or at least future generations. This person also lives in the USA. So that's not a valid excuse.


At the same time as saying that, hybrids fascinate me. I wish it didn't happen, but it's amazing some of the hybrids out there that have occurred! Lets see....

1. King Parrot x Rainbow Lorikeet
2. Mitred Conure x Blue Fronted Amazon (think there was also a mitred x tucuman? and nanday x [insert amazon species]???)
3. Rosella x Kakariki
4. Sun x Green Cheek
5. Sun x Black Cap
6. Green Cheek x Nanday
7. Green Cheek x Patagonian
8. Green Cheek x Dusky
9. Maroon Bellied x Dusky
10. Cockatiel x Galah
11. Rosella x Red Rump
12. Red Rump x Princess Parrot
13. Crimson Rosella x Eastern Rosella x Mallee Ringneck (26 year old infertile hybrid - born 1987!!!)

I created a group for hybrid parrot photos. It's more for a fascination kind of thing/educational. I'm always looking for more photos to add to it! (preferably with permission of the person who took the photo!)

Flickr: The Hybrid Parrots Pool

@ZoeyFredrik Are you talking about the "conan conures"???? These are sun x hahns hybrids bred back to sun, jenday, gold caps?????

@macawpower58 That's a valid point! Actually, a good example I know is the peachface x eyering hybrid lovebirds. Peachfaces tuck nesting material in their rump feathers. Fischers and black masks, as I understand it, carry the material in their beaks. Peachface hybrids are thus left confused as to whether they should carry nesting material in their rump feathers or carry it in their beak and end up getting frustrated... which is a moot point, considering that these hybrids are sterile. However, it is a great example of how hybridization can result in some issues with hybrids getting frustrated because they don't know what instincts they should follow... which doesn't even go into the diet aspect of things. I mean, what the hell would you feed a king parrot x rainbow lorikeet hybrid? One eats a liquid diet, the other eats a hard food diet!!!!!!!!!! You feed a hard food diet to a lorikeet and the bristles on their tongues can get worn down and they could die due to malnutrition. Their bodies are not set up to digest hard foods. Most parrot species eat a hard food diet, so we can only assume that feeding them a lorikeet diet would also be detrimental to their health.


I do kind of agree with the article that @Laurul Feather Cat posted.... hybrids may very well be the future of aviculture!

Hybrids and the future of Aviculture - City Parrots -

On the flip side of things... once the pure species become rare and most parrots within captivity are hybrids, think about how much the value of a pure species bird would rise???? It could then become a novelty to keep and breed pure species over hybrids! Especially if they ever come out with a test to determine the purity of a bird!








To shorten things up.... I can't answer the poll with a "No" when I'm fascinated by hybrids in general, and I can't say "Yes" because I'm against creating hybrids, intentionally or unintentionally. If hybrids are bred, I'd rather see a bird that clearly looks like a hybrid and is sold as a hybrid rather than a bird that looks like a pure species but isn't.

 

[LaSelva]

Well, not really the last Spix's in captivity since they are primarily divided between Al Wabra and Loro Parque and a breeding program in Brazil, that I know of. The bird you're speaking of was in private hands when they were all thought to have been accounted for- kept by a woman in a Denver suburb. It was 25 years old, in a cage too small, on an improper diet and could barely perch. Upon discovery it was turned over to the Brazilian govt. (which demanded it) in the hope it's genes would add diversity to it's program. Keep in mind also, Monica, that primary hope was placed on the last remaining Spix's in the wild. Every effort was made to keep him safe until his (formerly captured) mate could be found and rehabilitated for release. They actually tracked her down and it did happen. The conservation committee understood how important it was that this last wild bird (and his mate) pass on the Spix's macaw "culture" to their offspring. The passing on of survival skills by their own kind is very important to a parrots survival and the lack of has shown to be detrimental to re-release efforts thus far.

"The last wild Spix's knew where to find water in the dry season, it knew which seeds and fruit were good to eat......that last parrot was a vital cultural lifeline."

To tell you the truth, I spend more time lamenting their inevitable demise in the wild than contemplating the future of aviculture. It's their life in their natural habitat that tells the real story of what they are. And it's why I make every effort to see them when I can. But on topic, are we distinguishing between hybridizing and domesticating or considering them one and the same here? Because I tend to. But I'd be interested to know more of what people's idea of a human "compatible" parrot would be, it's qualities. Can someone lay out the goal and show how aviculture in it's current state is moving towards it?

We've bred the English budgie to our aesthetic standard and in addition to the shorter lifespan someone above mentioned they are also very prone to fatty tumors. This is something that I hope is not foretelling the future, in terms of what we've done with genetic engineering with so many other animals.

But thanks for your post (seems I haven't seen you in a while), and you too EmilyS. I'm curious though, as someone who's not knowledgeable when it comes to reptiles, how would you compare the difficulty levels of keeping a "ball python" to the "superball." It's because I seem to remember hearing that ball pythons are actually good pets. I'm wondering how big the leap achieved due to the cross breeding was.

 

[Monica]

I meant the last spix macaw kept within captivity as a pet in the USA.

Some people think that our *pet* birds will not be used within captive breeding programs to try and replenish wild populations. That's not exactly true. My point was, it can happen. Although not common, it's still possible.

I also heard the last spix macaw paired up with a female illigers and produced hybrid offspring - which never hatched. Sometime after that, the spix macaw disappeared and was never seen again. Quite sad.


I believe domestication can come from hybridization just as well as it can from breeding for traits... but unless breeders strive for pure species, it will eventually become one and the same. The only species that will be thriving as non-hybrids will be those that either can't be hybridized (budgies?), or the hybrids are sterile (peachface lovebirds?), therefore it would be impossible to dilute the species. That said, inbreeding, over-breeding, poor diets, etc could still result in a decline of health for these birds.

 

[LaSelva]

"I also heard the last spix macaw paired up with a female illigers and produced hybrid offspring - which never hatched. Sometime after that, the spix macaw disappeared and was never seen again."

Trappers had been taking chicks from the nest of the last pair of Spix's in the wild for some time but never managed to capture the adults. If I recall correctly it was partially due to a rear exit they had. But, either way, eventually the female was captured. The last male, alone, bonded to an Illiger's (maracana) macaw and mated. You're right, they produced eggs that never hatched - only one had an embryo (about 10 days old, confirmed to be a hybrid). The female was located and after a period of acclimation (in an outdoor flight aviary in the area) was released. They actually did re-kindle their relationship (in terms of courtship behaviors). Things looked good but sadly the female became electrocuted on some telephone wires in the area before any offspring were produced. The male eventually disappeared. I believe it was later revealed that a villager found and buried his dead body. By this time the recovery of the species was kind of a beacon of hope for the locals.

 

[Monica]

That's a little more than I had heard about. Really sad. I do believe it would be possible to reintroduce them into the wild and have them live... but at this point in time, it's not possible. There are not enough birds to be able to create a wild population that could sustain itself.


That said, it would be interesting if Chris Biro could ever get his breeding program started so that he could try his own wild reintroduction of the thick billed parrots back into Arizona... and if successful, if any of the other people would be able to learn from him.

 

[EmilyS]

If we're on this topic, what do you think about cloning species that became extinct because of human intervention?
We're able to bring back tons of different animals provided that there is enough DNA and a similar species embryo to support the splicing. We could apply this to recently extinct parrots.

Just so you know: The clones are normal 100% genetically correct copies. Fertile. Have all of their instincts and behaviours preserved and intact. They ARE the species, but brought back from extinction. We've done it with cows, sheep, pigs, and chickens.

Thoughts?

 

[LaSelva]

"That said, it would be interesting if Chris Biro could ever get his breeding program started so that he could try his own wild reintroduction of the thick billed parrots back into Arizona... and if successful, if any of the other people would be able to learn from him."

Here's a thread on that topic if you're interested:

Will our native parrot fly the skies of Arizona again? | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

EmilyS, my first thought and concern would be declining habitat. We're in direct competition for resources with other species and this has been the cause of many extinctions. In terms of parrots take the Great Green Macaw. Their preferred nesting tree is the Wild Almond (Almendro) tree. It's also coveted by humans in building due to it's strong wood and resitance to termites. In Peru, gold mining is clearing Amazon rainforest and polluting it's rivers with mercury. In West Africa, logging is destroying the habitat of the Wild Mountain Gorilla (and they don't survive in captivity!) as is mining for the Timneh grey. I think we have enough trouble keeping the ones we already have from going extinct and teaching the world to use resources sustainably.

It's a tough one. In general I'd lean against bringing a species back if there was no place for it in this world other than captivity. And the ones you mention "cows, sheep, pigs, and chickens" are livestock, they have a utilitarian purpose and are largely mistreated. A genetically wild animal is so dependent on the variables in it's natural habitat (in ways we're continuing to learn about) that it's almost certain it will suffer from that deprivation. Then to have, as you put it, "all of their instincts and behaviours preserved and intact" would be the source of their suffering. So, I don't see the benefit to an animal in being brought back under these circumstances. Unfortunately, if we can't undo the human intervention that caused the extinction in the first place. Also, I'm assuming that initiatives to bring back a species would require funding. Meanwhile we have protected areas such as Tambopata in Peru and Virunga in Africa that are still incredibly beautiful and who's countries can't afford to police them from illegal poaching, mining, deforestation, etc.

IMHO rather than support the satisfying of a human whim or curiosity so that we can praise ourselves for what we've accomplished it would be better to support conservation (not only for ourselves but for future generations and the health/cleanliness of this planet). To visit wildlife in it's natural habitat, observe from a distance (as it should be), and gain the experience of a lifetime (imaging coming up close to a family of Wild Mountain Gorillas!). We end up supporting the existing beauty we have on this planet that wer're loosing. I bet there are creatures (birds, etc.) still waiting to be discovered, flora/fauna, cures/medicinal agents, we'll never know if for the sake of economy we simply stomp in and destroy.

 

[Monica]

Emily, we don't need to use a similar species embryo to hatch out an extinct species of bird. Chicken eggs work just fine! Unless you consider houbara bustards to be similar to chickens!!! Just found another article where scientists were able to make a male duck produce chicken sperm, so rather than having baby ducklings, they'd have chickens! (or eagles, or other birds... sounds ironic... a duck hatching a predator!)

Rare Bird Embryo Grows Inside a Chicken Egg, Hatches Normally
'Duck fathers chicken' in experiment that could see extinct animals come back to life | Science & Tech | News | Daily Express
Hens could produce eggs of different species, revive extinct birds - UPI.com


On the subject though, I think it would be awesome if we could bring back an extinct species with enough DNA to be able to create a sustaining flock! We've already brought back species from extinction (not a parrot, not a bird), although she only lived for 11 minutes... but I have also heard of one breeder trying to breed back the carolina parakeet through hybridization. I have yet to see any proof of this, so I don't know how far they've gone. There's also the quagga project, which is breeding zebras with traits similar to the extinct quagga and they've done a pretty great job with their breeding probject! Someone else also produced a hybrid macaw that he called the "cuban macaw" since it had some similarities to the pure species.


David, I'm subscribed to that thread. I was sad to find out that Susan took *all* of Chris's parrots - except the thick bills. I guess he was lucky to keep them. Bad situation but I'm hoping that he can make his life return to some sort of normalcy and that he can accomplish his goals that he started years ago.