• Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
    Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here

Another lost parrot due to free flight.

Monica

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
5/18/10
Messages
11,271
Location
Hell, NV
Real Name
Monica
@Raz Thank you for giving us a more detailed account of what happened with Carly Lu. I hope you are able to find her and bring her back home! I do recall reading your post about teaching her to climb down in trees when first taking her outside, and I think that was a very smart idea to do!

I do wonder though about the other parrot she's flying with. Another escaped pet? Or perhaps a feral parrot?
 

Shyra

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/21/09
Messages
1,519
LOL - Actually, I don't think that anybody can be an accurate judge of character to any undomesticated species -not when it comes to predicting behavior 100% of the time, that is.


Again I agree with you but then no one can predict a domesticated animal 100% of the time either. For anyone to say they could would be pure arrogance and nothing more but we can make good decisions based on the information and experience that we have with that animal.


I agree 100% and that's why my healthy birds don't live in cages and get no commercial toys.

Those were only two examples, my point was that there is risk in anything that our birds do whether free flying or just living in our home. Birds have been sat on (so we obviously shouldn't let them on our couches, chairs, etc.) ; birds have been stepped on (so we shouldn't let them on our floors); they've drowned in toilets, sinks, tubs, even their own water dishes (so we can't give them liquids or baths, maybe just spritzing them will be all right but we definitely can't fill anything up with liquids in our home); oh and since you make your toys, can I assume you use no chains, quicklinks, rope, jute, hemp, or any other form to hang parts on because those can be dangerous as well as any toy itself because the bird could ingest the parts. Should I also assume the room you keep your bird in does not have walls or floors because they could fall from a perch and hurt their keel bone if they are not flighted and flighted they could hit the wall or window. It just goes on and on. Yes, I'm being over dramatic here but they are all valid examples. There is no way we can protect our birds 100% from everything.


Why is it the assumption is that free flying a trained bird is more risky than other things that could pose a life threatening danger? Yes, the bird could be lost. Every time a door in a home is opened while the bird is out of it's cage could also be lost, just recently someone lost their bird while carrying it in a travel cage because they accidentally fell it was lost for quite a while before found. Every day a bird is posted for being lost and they were not free flyers so I refuse to buy the idea that these birds are more in danger than any one else's.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind and say we should all free fly. It's something I will never do myself but I don't think we should be so negative and quick to judge those who do in the name of safety when it's impossible to keep our own birds 100% safe.
















 

petiteoiseau

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
12/7/13
Messages
1,165
Real Name
Bibi
Personally, I disagree with that. I don't think any species is 'programmed' to do much of anything, beyond reflexive behavior.
No, no, no, there is reflexive behavior and then there is instinctual behavior. People in the know correct me if I am wrong as this is not my area of expertise but, for what I understand, reflexive behavior is like a baby bird's feeding response (a physical response to a specific stimulus) while instinctual is like nest making (a complex behavior known without prior learning and with not necessarily an immediately preceding stimulus) and all species are 'programmed' for both. Then there are learned behaviors (like birds which learn to recognize the 'alarm' calls of other species they cohabit with) but a bird taking or flying off when something startles it is not reflexive or learned, it's instinctual. And that's where I find a problem with free-flight - because, in my personal opinion, you can't 'unteach' an instinctive behavior put in place to ensure the survival of the species.
 

FlyChomperFly

Moving in
Joined
7/17/14
Messages
8
Hello. Although i was aware you guys were here, my schedule unfortunately hasn't allowed me time to explore the discussions. plus, i didn't see an emergency to participate because there are so many excellent, knowledgeable people here who understand and are addressing the importance of flight in the home (my personal area of interest).

I have read Raz's blog in the past, but wasn't following it recently. had stumbled onto her account of Carly Lu the other day because i am doing an article about flight. similarly, i was visiting here for the same reason and noticed this discussion.

given that the experts are posting, i don't have a lot to add. however, i just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions that no one has yet addressed.

* Domestication -- i have read (both here and other places) where domestication is given as the distinctive factor between training capabilities of parrots vs. cats and dogs. and yet, all examples of training then talk about dogs. i would challenge the average person to show me that a domestic cat is *typically* more responsive to training than a parrot.

also, scientists are fairly convinced now that dogs probably self-domesticated because they *wanted* to be around humans. well, parrots are very similar. I would imagine you guys have seen the videos of the wild parrots in Australia swarming around people and landing on their arms, heads, and shoulders. what do you think the chance of a wild bird from the northern hemisphere--let alone flocks of them--doing that? parrots do tend to self-domesticate--some have said that was one of the downfalls of the Carolina parakeet--curiosity killed the birdie. in fact, a feral cat can often be more skittish and elusive than a wild bird.

for concrete evidence that it isn't domestication, but training... just check the craigslist lost and found in the major cities (NY, LA, Chicago, etc) on any given day--there are *hundreds* of lost dogs and cats listed across the country. their domestication doesn't keep them by their human--proper training does. no diff than a bird.

so, yes...training parrots to come/heel/recall really is just like properly training your dog. the reason it's so difficult for us and that we freak out about it so much is because with birds, it happens in 3 dimensions--where we humans are unable to function...and because birds are prey--unlike dogs and cats. that is the REAL distinction and that is the major difference in how a species *may* need to be addressed when training--but not necessarily.

* Dangers of freeflight - while i don't personally regularly freefly outside, i have flown my birds outside a few times without any incident. the only time i have had an issue was when my indoor flyer that was NOT trained for outdoor flight got outside. similar to what others have said...now that i am training as if my guys are going to fly outdoors, they are much safer.

even tho i personally don't freefly much, i work with people who freefly and i spend a lot of time helping people recover lost birds--both outdoor flyers and esp those that never go outside. while i don't have independent statistics, i can tell you from extensive personal experience that given how often freeflyers fly outside, there are very few losses compared to other birds (including flighted and non-flighted).

please note -- based on my experience, the losses that are most preventable are the birds that are flighted in the home but have no recall training. those are the birds who have the skill and strength to get themselves high or far...but not the training to come down or to respond to their human.

some of you questioned why Raz focused on a human taking Carly initially...well, it's a fact that the biggest danger to outdoor flyers is humans. outdoor flyers tend to be far more confident and social than the average pet parrot...so will frequently go visit with humans. remember...outdoor flyers are drilled to come to a human--that is the core of their training, and what they consider to be a fun game. the vast majority of freeflyers go missing because a human takes them. so, that is one of the biggest challenges that people who freeflyer outdoors face--trying to figure out how to prevent their birds from landing on someone.

* Harnesses - you were talking about harnesses. i won't go into it here, but i posted a whole explanation on my youtube channel about the dangers of using the flight suit. after stepping up my training to make our guys outside-ready (esp flying down from height), the flight suit tether failed and our grey ended up on a 40-foot tree. having been trained to recall and desensitized to the outdoors, once she saw us, she thought it was a cool game and spent the next hour or so whistling and calling 'hello' to passersby. we were freaking out, but she flew down.

those of you familiar with shanlung are probably aware that he unfortunately discovered how harnesses can also be unreliable. he had 2 flyoffs of birds who were harnessed at the time.

* Overview - while some of you have issues with the people who freefly outdoors...there are still so many who feel that in-home flight is very dangerous and not worth the 'risk.' they feel that clipping is best for the birds in almost all cases. as some here have pointed out...there are many still who feel that indoor flight is totally irresponsible. that is what my article is about, so this is a very interesting discussion.
 

Shyra

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/21/09
Messages
1,519
FlyChomperFly Thank you for posting. Enjoyed your insight into this subject.
 

petiteoiseau

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
12/7/13
Messages
1,165
Real Name
Bibi

Again I agree with you but then no one can predict a domesticated animal 100% of the time either. For anyone to say they could would be pure arrogance and nothing more but we can make good decisions based on the information and experience that we have with that animal.


Indeed you can't but domesticated animals have been (throughout the process of domestication) genetically engineered to all have the same temperament and that's why we can say that 99.999% of Border collies will herd and that 99.999% of Labradors love swimming. And, personally, I can predict that none of my dogs will ever bite me but I could not that my loving parrots would never do.


Those were only two examples, my point was that there is risk in anything that our birds do whether free flying or just living in our home. Birds have been sat on (so we obviously shouldn't let them on our couches, chairs, etc.) ; birds have been stepped on (so we shouldn't let them on our floors); they've drowned in toilets, sinks, tubs, even their own water dishes (so we can't give them liquids or baths, maybe just spritzing them will be all right but we definitely can't fill anything up with liquids in our home); oh and since you make your toys, can I assume you use no chains, quicklinks, rope, jute, hemp, or any other form to hang parts on because those can be dangerous as well as any toy itself because the bird could ingest the parts. Should I also assume the room you keep your bird in does not have walls or floors because they could fall from a perch and hurt their keel bone if they are not flighted and flighted they could hit the wall or window. It just goes on and on. Yes, I'm being over dramatic here but they are all valid examples. There is no way we can protect our birds 100% from everything.
Why is it the assumption is that free flying a trained bird is more risky than other things that could pose a life threatening danger? Yes, the bird could be lost. Every time a door in a home is opened while the bird is out of it's cage could also be lost, just recently someone lost their bird while carrying it in a travel cage because they accidentally fell it was lost for quite a while before found. Every day a bird is posted for being lost and they were not free flyers so I refuse to buy the idea that these birds are more in danger than any one else's..


Because, although there are always risks, most accidents you mentioned are perfectly preventable and only happen to people that were not careful enough. It's a harsh commentary on bird owners whose birds had accidents, I know, and I am not trying to hurt anybody's feelings (I include myself in the list of people that made stupid mistakes) but it's true and we all know it. And the 'assumption' (although I don't see it as an assumption but a fact) that free flying a bird is more risky than keeping them in a house is because the bad outcome of giving them a toy with a chain might be a lost claw or toe but the bad outcome of free flying a bird is losing it. And, although we can claim ignorance of certain risks (like toys, chains, etc) or that they were not 'our' fault (somebody opening a door, leaving the cage open, etc), we can't do it when we are taking a bird outside without a harness which everybody knows it's risky - even the people who do it. Ergo, while something we did not think properly through and ended up hurting the bird is an 'accident', doing something that you know beforehand is risky and when the outcome can be death for the bird, it's a gamble. And I don't agree with gambling with an animal's life.











[/quote]
 

Monica

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
5/18/10
Messages
11,271
Location
Hell, NV
Real Name
Monica
@FlyChomperFly I follow you on Youtube and have found many of your videos to be astounding! I've enjoyed watching your videos! I know many others have also found your videos to be insightful and helpful. Thank you for your input! You make some great points! :)





@petiteoiseau length of chain can be quite important, too...... re: the following thread

!! Dangerous toys list !! | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

What if the chain had gotten wrapped around the birds neck instead?
 

ConureTiel

Sprinting down the street
Avenue Veteran
Joined
6/24/14
Messages
534
Location
Virginia, USA
petiteoiseua said

LOL - I didn't say that I called it 'positive reinforcement', I said that I used it. I didn't call it anything, not even training! I just taught them by repetition and praise because I loved animals and hated making them suffer in any way. American Indians used positive reinforcement when taming their horses, they did not call it anything but 'taming' and knew nothing of behavioral science but they still did it.
What you said was what I quoted, that you were using it before it was called positive reinforcement. And I was just saying that unless you are older than Skinner et al it is unlikely that you were using it before it was termed positive reinforcement. I doubt you are that old! :hehe: :dance4:

Anyway, what Native American groups are/were known for using reinforcement-based techniques with their horses? Most horse training utilizes escape training/ the negative reinforcement of getting release from the pressure of the leg or the rein by offering the desired change in gait or direction. Though there certainly are plenty of uses for positive reinforcement in horse training, too, esp with groundwork (and some under saddle work as well). But even current trainers who use what have been called " horse whisperer " type techniques, like Buck Brannaman and so forth, things like round pen work and so on - mostly that falls under the negative reinforcement umbrella. Plus a lot of good old-fashioned desensitization and socialization and proofing.

Training employed in a kind manner, yes, hopefully, but not necessarily positive reinforcement. But if you are aware of something else entirely I would love to be pointed in the right direction.
 

Shyra

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/21/09
Messages
1,519
Ergo, while something we did not think properly through and ended up hurting the bird is an 'accident', doing something that you know beforehand is risky and when the outcome can be death for the bird, it's a gamble. And I don't agree with gambling with an animal's life.
[/quote]


I realize there will be no changing your mind on this subject and respect your thoughts on it. My opinions differ greatly in that if the training and time is put into it I don't see it as being any bigger gamble than some of the other things we do as bird owners. Some would say that by just having a dog in your home you are gambling with your birds life. I vehemently disagree with that way of thinking but dogs have gotten hold of birds so it does give credence to that school of thought just as a few birds have been lost to free flying. We always hear of the bad things that happen and base decisions on those handful of instances rather than considering all the families who have both dogs and birds living in harmony where nothing has happened or all the other people free flying their birds who have never lost one. I can't help but believe that if we opened our minds and celebrated the positives more rather than dwelling on the negatives that transpire not only our birds but we would also lead richer lives.

Bibi, I've enjoyed debating this issue with you.
 

jmfleish

Cruising the avenue
Vendor
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/19/09
Messages
13,329
Location
Madison, WI
Real Name
Jen
I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't think positive reinforcement training has anything to do with domestication. Go out there and do a search, it works on any animal in the same manner, across all species. Why do so many dog trainers go to chicken training seminars to learn how to clicker train with positive reinforcement if it wasn't the same technique? Why would you be able to train a shrimp with positive reinforcement if it wasn't the same training technique? Someone brought up Karen Pryor's book, Clicker Training For "Insert Species Here". The concept is the same regardless of the species and that's what I find so enticing about it. It makes no difference who you want to work with as long as you understand the science behind it!

As for free flying, if done correctly, just as Shyra pointed out, it has just as many dangers in it as keeping a bird. The point is, you have to train to do it and train well. When I lost and recovered Amarillo, Dana pointed out to me that you have to train your birds like you're going to free fly them, even if you're never going to do it because there is always a chance that they could end up outside. I've taken that to heart. Not only is it solid advice, but it creates a stronger bond with your birds, so nothing lost in doing so.

Two of my birds right now do come to me when called but not every time. You can bet that I'll be working on that as well as working with every bird in my house to come when called, even the ones who cannot fly. It's an invaluable tool to have in my skillset.
 
Last edited:

FlyChomperFly

Moving in
Joined
7/17/14
Messages
8
@FlyChomperFly I follow you on Youtube and have found many of your videos to be astounding! I've enjoyed watching your videos! I know many others have also found your videos to be insightful and helpful.
Thank you for your compliment, Monica. as i mentioned, i am here to research opinion on flight, so i have to focus on that for the moment. however, after this project is done, since you are so familiar with what i've posted already, i would be interested in brainstorming with you about flight in the home. is that something you would be interested in doing? if not, no hard feelings ;) just let me know.
 

Shyra

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/21/09
Messages
1,519
Thank you for your compliment, Monica. as i mentioned, i am here to research opinion on flight, so i have to focus on that for the moment. however, after this project is done, since you are so familiar with what i've posted already, i would be interested in brainstorming with you about flight in the home. is that something you would be interested in doing? if not, no hard feelings ;) just let me know.

Well if Monica doesn't, I know I and I'm sure others would. :)
 

Monica

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
5/18/10
Messages
11,271
Location
Hell, NV
Real Name
Monica
Thank you for your compliment, Monica. as i mentioned, i am here to research opinion on flight, so i have to focus on that for the moment. however, after this project is done, since you are so familiar with what i've posted already, i would be interested in brainstorming with you about flight in the home. is that something you would be interested in doing? if not, no hard feelings ;) just let me know.
Sure, but I'm not sure I'd be of much help! :embarassed: There have been some fabulous replies made here by other members! :)
 

Saemma

Ripping up the road
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
11/7/09
Messages
27,187
@Raz and @ratgirl - I would like to say Thank you to the both of you for adding value to this thread. Up until now, I feel that there hasn't been any other person on this forum who has had the capacity to explain *responsible free flight training* in an effective and very approachable manner which helped me to understand or appreciate what's involved.

Thank you for your time and explicit posts, I've really appreciated them very much. This isn't to say that I've become a fan or am running out to sign up for lessons, just means I can sense that the reason why you both have allowed this type of lifestyle for your companion parrots is because something inside the both of you feels this is right and are comfortable to accept the consequences.

Raz, I hope you find your Carly Lu, I really do. If I understand correctly, you've known her for 10 years? :)

By the same token, if your thoughts about what she is currently doing out there is accurate, I wonder if she'd be happier to remain outside rather than come back to her former life? Just thoughts.

 

GlassOnion

Biking along the boulevard
Joined
2/8/11
Messages
5,275
I have a bird who is very high energy, gets depressed in a cage and would truly, absolutely benefit from outdoor free flight. However, he is also high strung with a panic response that I could never trust, so he is not a sound candidate at all. It's disheartening to realize that I can't ever provide this for him.
 

ratgirl

Strolling the yard
Joined
7/14/14
Messages
76
I am a little late on the discussion, but I have a little tidbit to add from a dog training school I went to this month. Did you know it takes 2 years of regular, daily, recall training, in many different environments to have a perfect recall on a dog? That means, they will stop mid activity, and come, that includes bite work, killing rabbits or whatever. I wonder if the same is applied to birds?

According to who?

Dana
 

ratgirl

Strolling the yard
Joined
7/14/14
Messages
76
Do you have any experience training mammals like dogs, cats, horses or only birds?

Yes. I have trained dogs, cats, horses, goats, chickens, rats, and a tiny bit with fish. So what? Training is training. It's about reinforcement delivered contingently and contiguously with a behavior. The actual physical skill of it takes time, as well as learning to read the animal you are working with, but it's pretty similar.

And as far as prediction behavior goes, you can't 100% predict the behavior of any individual with free choice. But past behavior is a good indication of what will probably happen in the future if none of the conditions change.

Dana
 

SunUp

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Joined
9/21/11
Messages
1,961
I've read this thread with great interest. All my birds are flighted, and my grey and lovebird are especially adept. While I don't think outdoor free flight is in our future, I'd LOVE to have access to a large, indoor facility to fly my birds in. I sort of envision a big, open area with perhaps some potted trees to land in/sway from, various perches high and low to practice coming down, that sort of thing. Something with enough space so they could really get moving through the air, not just take the short flights they manage in my home. For me, that would be the best of both worlds...the chance for my birds to really boogy along, but still be safe from outdoor concerns.
Okay, pretty off topic I guess...just sharing the dream! :lol:
 

ratgirl

Strolling the yard
Joined
7/14/14
Messages
76
I don't think you can call free-flight training operant conditioning as the reward is in the action itself and not a subsequent consequence to it - and there is also no punishment.


D: I don't understand this sentence at all. Operant conditioning is learning that happens based on the antecendents that precede the behavior and the consequences that maintain it. All operant (learned behavior) works this way. The other type of behavior is respondent, which is only affected by antecedents, whereas operant behavior is a function of it's consequences. So I can't make heads or tails of that sentence above.



-------------
EXACTLY! Birds react to environmental stimuli which we cannot control at all! And, as far as I know, the only reinforcers for birds that free-fly is the flight itself and, possibly, a treat afterward but I doubt the 'positive consequence' of the treat would trump a strong environmental stimulus every time. And that risk of 'not every single time' is what I find objectionable about the practice.


D: With all due respect, I don't think you understand free flight training at all. Have YOU ever trained even an off leash dog?

Dana
 
Top