Aggression Advice

[Reality Storm]

So, I have 4 1/2 year old male (DNA-tested) Bronze-winged Pionus named Loki. Loki is my first bird, so I only have google and forums like this to guide me. Since this past Labor day (2016) he has become exceedingly aggressive, and I don't know what to do and am seeking any advice from more experience Pi owners.

When this began, he was 4 years, 2 months. Up until Labor Day, Loki had never done anything that even resembled a bite. He was always been nothing but super cuddly and sweet. That weekend, he was boarding while I was out of town. When I picked him up, the vet tech told me that he had managed to escape his cage over the weekend. She'd gone back there and saw him on top of the cage, and when she tried to recover him, he attacked her and bit and scratched the back of her neck. I'd never seen him have any behavior like that before. We went home and he seemed fine.

The very next afternoon, I got home from work and let him out of his cage and he immediately attacked me. I was completely taken aback. Ever since then, this is his same behavior ever single afternoon. He is not like that in the mornings. When we get up in the morning he is his old usual sweet self as we make his food and I get ready for work. When I get home, though, he charges at me if I come near his cage.

Today, he was out all morning, sweet as usual. He decided it was bath time and was trying to bathe in the little bowl on his playstand. So I got out his big bowl and he proceeded to have a grand old time bathing and throwing water all over my bathroom. About 30 minutes later, he was preening and drying off on his perch and then flew over to me and started biting. This is the first time he's ever turned aggressive while I was here. Previous to this, it always happened while I was away (either at work, or even on a short run to the store). I had attributed it mostly to not liking being caged all day (or even for an hour while I ran an errand). Today he wasn't caged at all, and just went from angel to demon without any signs that I could see.

Since this has gone on, I've taken to not letting him out of his cage in the afternoons when I get home. I will site and talk to him in the room where is primary cage is so we do get some social time, but I really miss having him tooling around on my shoulder all evening until he got tired (at which point, in the past, he would take off from me and fly through the house back to his cage on his own).

Everything I've read indicates Pionus hit sexual maturity around 1 /12 to 2 years. This began when he was well past 4 years. I've seen other posts on here about mating season hormones, but those all seem to be spring and summer times. This began in the fall and has gone through the winter.

I don't want to have a cage-bound friend. I don't feel like it is fair to him, but at the same time he can't be out in the afternoons.

What I don't know is if he has decided I am no longer his best buddy, but instead some kind of rival; or if this is merely a hormonal thing that I can wait out. If the former, then I guess I'll have to look into rehoming him. If the latter, I just want to know if I'm doing any harm by not letting him out in the afternoons for the duration.

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all in advance.

 

[Maxsmom]

Welcome to AA and Pionus Pointe! Great that you are seeking assistance. I think he loves you but is just having a tough time with his hormones which will pass.

Sounds like cage agression. Potentially hormonal even at 4 years. Maybe the weather where you are spurs it on at another time of year than other pionus. Max (wcp) was hormonal well into Sept his first time and he started in Feb. It has been different every time but less severe. My cockatiel didn't get hormonal until she was 8 or 9 and I didn't think it would happen because onset is usually much earlier.

Have you looked at any resources from The Good Bird Inc or Behaviour Works? Try positive reinforcement training...it could absolutely save and enhance your relationship.

Lots of male pionus get rehomed at this age because owners have a tough time with change in behaviour. But by learning measures on how to deal with behaviour a lot of birds do not need to be rehomed. My white cap male is just months older than your guy and believe me I wouldn't be honest if I said I never thought of rehoming but my situation is exasperated by having two male pi and I didn't want either to lose any body parts. But I have learned to train them and it helps tremendously. Believe me if you have only 1 bird you can most likely resolve these issues. Try things like target training, rewarding all good behavior with a treat like a nut or a scritch, training him to do turnarounds, rewarding him when he says a word. Learn to understand his body language so you do not approach when he doesn't want you to.

Check out old videos on Pionus Pointe by Eloy. She posts videos of training of her pionus.

Many hugs. And we would love to see a photo of your guy.

 

[Maxsmom]

Training Parrots | Parrot Training DVDS & Books

Written Works: Learning and Behavior - BehaviorWorks.com

vimeo.com/ondemand/parrotbiting

 

[Lady Jane]

@JLcribber

 

[camelotshadow]

Hope it works out. Funny it started with boarding 4 mo ago.
Don't think they can hold a grudge that long.
Not sure how long hormonal periods can take.
I'm guessing keeping him caged is frustrating for him too.

I guess some might say to get a T stick & work with him.

I adore Bronze Wings & hope it gets better.

 

[JLcribber]

Sounds like something pretty traumatic happened during this boarding. Bad enough to change his behaviour. One possibility.

I don't have any experience with that species but it's typical sounding ccage aggression. My solution for that is to take the cage out of the equation and change the environment.

What happens if you take him away from the cage to a neutral area?

 

[Dartman]

Yep, usually if it's cage aggression once they are away from their home area they get back to the way they normally act with you. When I bought Lurch a new much bigger house his aggression mostly stopped as it wasn't his yet and he had way more room to stay away from us when we had to reach insude or get near. It also helped that all the feeder doors and cups matched up and had swing out doors to change them so I no longer had to reach inside.
They can also claim their play stands or favorite areas to sit and eat or snooze around the house too.
Nerd claimed his cage, the table area beside it, my chair he loved to sit on under the table to think Nerd thoughts, and his play stand.
Dobby so far isn't very worried about his house and almost demands I reach in so he can jump on my arm and run up to my shoulder when I let him out for the day.

 

[momazon]

Yep, usually if it's cage aggression once they are away from their home area they get back to the way they normally act with you. When I bought Lurch a new much bigger house his aggression mostly stopped as it wasn't his yet and he had way more room to stay away from us when we had to reach insude or get near. It also helped that all the feeder doors and cups matched up and had swing out doors to change them so I no longer had to reach inside.
They can also claim their play stands or favorite areas to sit and eat or snooze around the house too.
Nerd claimed his cage, the table area beside it, my chair he loved to sit on under the table to think Nerd thoughts, and his play stand.
Dobby so far isn't very worried about his house and almost demands I reach in so he can jump on my arm and run up to my shoulder when I let him out for the day.

I agree with all that is posted, but the BW we rehomed was a real biter and would chase me biting my neck and ears. I never knew what the trigger really was, but it took over a year for her to settle.

When things were awful during my marriage, Dob would attack anyone without mercy, except for my daughter. When she moved out and all he had was me, he developed a routine of attacking me when I wore a hat or hood, or even if I had wet hair. I think their trauma comes out in more complicated ways that we know, and it takes more than we understand to make it pass.

 

[Reality Storm]

At first I thought this was cage aggression, as well. However, changing the cage had no impact on it. I first tried completely rearranging the perches/toys in the cage and swapped them all out, to no avail. I then discovered the cage had begun to rust and ended up throwing the whole thing out. He is now in a smaller cage while I await a stainless steel home for him from Expandable Habitats.

That said, despite the totally new cage, the behavior is still the same.

As I mentioned in the novel I typed above, this past weekend was the first time he's exhibited the behavior away from the cage and also as a dramatic change. He was out with me in the morning as is usual since he's a total sweetheart in the mornings still. After being out for a few hours, he switched over from sweet to attack mode and flew over to me to start biting. I didn't approach him this time, he came to me. Also, we were nowhere near his cage (which was in the other room).

It makes me wonder if it really is hormonal and somehow tied to daylight.

 

[Begone]

I believe it is both a traumatic thing and hormonal. The aggression is from a traumatic moment (and we can only guess what triggers it) and the attack is hormonal.
It is very important that you still love him, he really need your love at the moment. If he feels unwanted and unloved he will get worse and it will escalate.
When he gets angry still love him, be calm and just leave the room. Never cage him when he is angry! This will only make it worse. He will only getting more angry and at the same time feel that the cage is punishment.
Remember that he probably don't understand why he gets so angry and that he is a wild bird. We must always remember that. They bite for a reason but we should never take that personal.
Yes it will hurt our feeling every time they bite and attack us, but as I say, they are wild birds and we need to adjust for them, and not the opposite.

And as Maxsmom said, to train him is a very good idea. Everything that is positive can brake the habit of getting angry. Take him outside, do things with him, train him or just spoil him for a short moment.
Bath him every second day and go "short hiking" with him if he likes that. Fly train him inside and outside (if he can wear harness) is also very good.
To make him tired (they get really tired using their brains) and satisfied with his life will make him less angry, but to cage him and not letting him do something at all will only make it worse.
I really hope that you not give up on him, continue fighting. It will get better.
Good luck!

 

[Maxsmom]

I think if there is cage aggression one let's them be and doesn't approach cafe when they do not want you to do so.

For aggression away from cage try to write down what happens right before a bite to see if you can determine a pattern to figure out what the trigger is. But what you are describing really does sound hormonal. I clip Maximus when he is hormonal so no flying attacks. He has to say good boy to request me to come pick him up when he wants to get around the house.

AND I agree too about the possibility of trauma. Positive reinforcement behaviour helps this.

 

[Maxsmom]

I believe it is both a traumatic thing and hormonal. The aggression is from a traumatic moment (and we can only guess what triggers it) and the attack is hormonal.
It is very important that you still love him, he really need your love at the moment. If he feels unwanted and unloved he will get worse and it will escalate.
When he gets angry still love him, be calm and just leave the room. Never cage him when he is angry! This will only make it worse. He will only getting more angry and at the same time feel that the cage is punishment.
Remember that he probably don't understand why he gets so angry and that he is a wild bird. We must always remember that. They bite for a reason but we should never take that personal.
Yes it will hurt our feeling every time they bite and attack us, but as I say, they are wild birds and we need to adjust for them, and not the opposite.

And as Maxsmom said, to train him is a very good idea. Everything that is positive can brake the habit of getting angry. Take him outside, do things with him, train him or just spoil him for a short moment.
Bath him every second day and go "short hiking" with him if he likes that. Fly train him inside and outside (if he can wear harness) is also very good.
To make him tired (they get really tired using their brains) and satisfied with his life will make him less angry, but to cage him and not letting him do something at all will only make it worse.
I really hope that you not give up on him, continue fighting. It will get better.
Good luck!

Sage advice

 

[Dartman]

I'm pretty sure poor Lurch went through some trauma after connecting the dots to the way he acted and still reacted some times even after he was finally happy here. If I raised my hand sometimes he'd flinch, one day I raised my hand not thinking about it and he screamed and flew away. So who knows what baggage he may have that is in the recesses of his mind setting him off, along with hormones making him crazy. It took about 5 years to get Lurch to where he decided I was trustworthy and a friend but he still would bite on occasion, it was just who he was and a feature. I let him do as he pleased as long as it wasn't hurting anything and he slowly got more curious and happy with his life and decided I was his chosen one. Dobby of course has always known love and happiness so he pretty much just turns away or gives a ferocious beaking if he's really upset though have no doubt if he truly had to he would bite very badly. So far we haven't found a trigger so bad to make him decide to do any flying attacks, I had enough of those with Lurch till he finally calmed down and started giving warnings again. You'll have to work through it together and eventually I think he'll decide your worth his trust and the attacks or bites will get fewer and farther between as he decides he really doesn't want to hurt you, though he still might from time to time as he gets scared or a new trigger comes up.
Nerd was with me 31 years and he only bit when scared or hurt and I always knew why he bit, not so much with Lurch though I'm sure he had his reasons. I do know one trigger was he liked going into the bathroom with me and after a bit he'd screech and bite my neck. It turned out he was fascinated by the water faucet and wanted a drink and to play in the water. Once I sat there to see what he'd do and he ran down my arm and got a bunch of drinks then played with the water and climbed on the faucet. After that we had a understanding, I'd take care of business and he'd wait patiently, then I'd say want a drink and he'd run down my arm and drink and play, when he was done I'd say you done? and he'd run back up my arm to my shoulder. I never got bit going in there again, he just didn't know how to tell me he wanted the water so he'd get frustrated I wasn't doing what he wanted and bite.

 

[Reality Storm]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Thus far, I have been unable to really teach Loki anything. I did manage to teach him to say a guttural "Hello" that he will only do around me and really only when he sees food that he wants. Aside from that, I've so far proven to be a terrible trainer and haven't gotten him to do anything (I'm fully aware that they aren't talkers.)

I've tried getting him comfortable with a harness, but I was never able to get him to accept it.
I've tried getting him to perch on a specific colored perch (at my vet's recommendation) to no avail.
I've tried teaching him other basic things I've seen (turn around, etc.) and haven't even been able to get him to even just touch things on command.

Basically, I just don't seem to grasp how to train him to do anything, really. This was all before the aggression started; now its nearly impossible to do anything with him at all. I own a couple of Barbara Heidenreich's DVDs, but still haven't been able to accomplish anything with him. I've tried finding Youtube videos, but all I can ever seem to find are folks showing off birds doing things they've learned, but never anything that helps me understand *how* to teach him. (If anyone can point me to something that really teaches *me* how to teach him, I'd be eternally grateful).

So, I've tried to just give him freedom and plenty of his own choices. Up until this started, it was great. He generally flew to me when I called him (it never seems like "on command" though; more like he's reading my intent). He had (up until a week ago) an enormous cage with plenty of room to move as well as plenty of things to do (foraging toys, preening toys, foot toys, variously positioned food/water bowls). As stated, at the moment he is non-aggressive and super docile in the mornings. I spend all morning while getting ready for work with him out with me, doting on him and working on whatever I can try in that time. On the weekends, he's out all morning until the aggression kicks in and I try to work on anything I can with him (though again, I think *I* am just not getting it when it comes to training).

 

[Reality Storm]

When he gets angry still love him, be calm and just leave the room. Never cage him when he is angry! This will only make it worse. He will only getting more angry and at the same time feel that the cage is punishment.

Question about this: Based on this past weekend's experiences. His aggression seems to come on around late morning (10:30 or 11:00 AM) which I am normally not home for during the week. When I get home, even going near his cage shows him ruffle up and hiss and start preening and attacking his perches as a display. So obviously I don't even attempt to take him out. Previous to this behavior, he would always be anxious to come out as soon as I got home, but now I obviously can't.

If I do have him out when the behavior comes on (like on weekend mornings), I can't just leave the room, as this weekend proves he flew out to find me and then attacked. Is it the same as caging him if I close the door to the room he's in at the time?

 

[Begone]

If I do have him out when the behavior comes on (like on weekend mornings), I can't just leave the room

Why? Don't you have doors to close behind you?

Is it the same as caging him if I close the door to the room he's in at the time?

No. By leaving him you are not punish him more then that hes not allowed to be with you.
When you cage him, you often use some kind of violence or perhaps a towel to get him back. You will not want to make him more angry, that is why I recommend just to leave the room and give him a time-out on his own. Go back after 5 minutes, if he still angry, leave him again. E.t.c.

If something like this happen to me (it has for some years ago) I always study wild birds and try to find out what they would have done in the wild.
To "fly away" in this situation is what another bird would have done if it not would have chose to fight to death.

 

[Reality Storm]

Eloy, thank you, again, for the feedback.

So, I had the great fortune today to speak to someone in person who also has a pionus. I was ordering from their site and the checkout was broken so I called their number and she casually asked me what kind of bird I had and how old he was. When I told her Loki was 4 1/2 she asked me if he'd had his first hormone season yet. I proceeded to explain to her the same as I did here and her only response was "Yup, exactly the same as mine the first year and at the same age." She comforted me greatly telling me that it will get shorter and lighter as he ages, and that her (now 19 year old) happy pi had all exactly the same symptoms and signs as Loki is having.

That definitely confirms (in my mind) that it is purely hormonal and not likely trauma at the vet that weekend (just coincidental timing). And that I just need to grin and bear it a little longer and we'll come through it (we're now 5 months in and she said her pi's first time through lasted 6 months.

My biggest concern was that online searches I'd done said his hormones should have kicked in at about 2 years and that the "season" should be in the spring/summer instead of his current fall/winter. That someone else has had the same experience is very heartening and will help me (and Loki) greatly.

 

[JLcribber]

the "season" should be in the spring/summer instead of his current fall/winter.

This is totally situational. Geography (where you live), current environment, diet, photoperiod all affect when the "season" is in your house.

 

[Fuzzy]

Agree with what John just said. Kobe doesn't have a particular "seasonal" time. Years ago it used to be fall through winter and maybe a touch of spring or much later towards summer. This time, I think it was summer through to fall. He's fine right now. I notice too that he used to moult before Christmas so he was always looking his best with new feathers for his Christmas photos. Interestingly the last two years he seems to be moulting after Christmas.

Actively training is a good idea so that you can get some sort of positive communication happening between the two of you. Although be aware that you are constantly training an animal with absolutely EVERY interaction you have with them - if they can see, hear, smell, touch you, you are training them. What can you use as reinforcement? That is the key. Treats? Access to a particular toy? Head scratch? You can train anything by using a method called Shaping. Shaping is breaking down the goal behaviour into teeny tiny manageable steps. For example with target training you might start with desensitizing Loki to the target of your choice. I use a chopstick. You could start by leaving it lying around to begin with and bringing it gradually nearer to his cage over a couple of days so as not to provoke more than the mildest of reactions. When he's used to the presence of the chopstick you might hold it up at a distance from him, but close enough so that he can walk towards it if he want to. The steps or approximations might go something like this:

Loki looks at the chopstick (bird has to look at what he's going to touch!). Immediately reinforce! I'm going to suggest a treat here, but it could be anything.
Loki turns his head towards the chopstick. Treat!
Loki turns his body towards the chopstick. Treat!
Loki leans towards the chopstick. Treat!
Loki takes half a step towards the chopstick. Treat!
Loki takes a full step towards the chopstick. Treat!
Loki takes a second step towards the chopstick. Treat!
Loki reaches his beak towards the chopstick. Treat!
Loki touches the end of the chopstick! BIG treat!!!

You've just taught him to touch a target! You can break down ANY behaviour into tiny steps or approximations just like this - from stepping up to turning circles to presenting feet for toenail clipping to entering a travel cage, etc, etc. If Loki were to fail one of those approximations, then you would go back to the last successful one and work back up again in even smaller steps. Keep training sessions very short - 30 seconds to a couple of minutes here and there through the day. First session you might only cover the first three approximations which is great! Next session you would start again and maybe get to the forth or fifth approximation. As Loki learns you will find you begin to skip over the steps he has already learned. Always end a session on a successful note.

If Kobe shows "aggressive" body language at my approach if he's in his cage (you so perfectly describe the observable behaviour in Loki), I walk away again (I am removing the reinforcement for the unwanted behaviour - me). But I also see if I can cue another more desirable behaviour. It works for us if I call out something we say together when he's relaxed and gentle... it's just a "huh" but more often than not, it changes his attitude and I can come back again and open his door. Or you could target him to another area of the cage whilst you open the door - this is what I do when I slot food bowls in. Kobe earns reinforcement for targeting his body to a perch away from the food bowl... then he also gets the reinforcement of the newly slotted in food bowl. A win win situation that has over time lessened any aggression when I put the food bowls in. If Kobe flies at me (I know flying to bite from flying to land) then I will duck (thereby removing any reinforcement for biting). Then as soon as possible I will positively reinforce any other behaviour. He might have landed on top of the fridge where there are toys. If he touches a toy I will immediately praise him (Kobe finds my attention very reinforcing). All the time, I am trying to remove reinforcement for unwanted behaviour and at the same time reinforce any other acceptable behaviour - it is called Differential Reinforcement in behavioural terms. If you only remove reinforcement for unwanted behaviour it will build frustration on the part of the animal which is why it should be combined with positive reinforcement for another more desirable behaviour asap.

 

[Dartman]

Great post, that lays it out in a easy to understand way. Dobby is very food motivated provided it's a high value treat to him but I don't really use it in training like that but it comes in handy when I need him to come to me or am just trying to work at getting him to decide I'm as worthy as my sister is. Would have been a good idea with Lurch but we mostly worked it out with time.