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An article. Why the Caged Bird Does Not Sing
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Why the caged bird does not sing.
- Thread starter Saemma
- Start date
there seems to be a lot of news coverage lately about people in prisons and in isolation.
Every single time I wonder why no one mentions the similar effects on parrots held in the same conditions and why that is considered normal.
Every single time I wonder why no one mentions the similar effects on parrots held in the same conditions and why that is considered normal.
JLcribber
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Pretty darn eye opening isn't it?
The longer one owns and the more one learns about our large parrots, the more self evident it becomes that we have done these creatures a huge travesty. So sad.
The longer one owns and the more one learns about our large parrots, the more self evident it becomes that we have done these creatures a huge travesty. So sad.
waterfaller1
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I haven't looked at the article but I can imagine what it is about without looking.They should not be here. They should be free.
But the way I look at it is they are, so I would rather a few live with me. The one who does the research, and the best I can to provide a good diet, a safe environment,and enrichment, than in someone's home that gives poor to little care and minimum interaction.
tattoosiva
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Oh man, the truth hurts. That was a devastating read 
.
.
Monica
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If you want a deep and emotional read.... here ya go.
Ethical, Moral and Spiritual Considerations of Companion Parrot Care
Ethical, Moral and Spiritual Considerations of Companion Parrot Care
Still reading, but wanted to say thank you, Monica
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...I wish it would be left at that; take care of what's here, to best of our ability.
Amazing! I feel changed for the better somehow and I am so grateful I read this. Thank you again, Monica!
Monica
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You're welcome. It's a long read, but I think worth it. Kind of makes you think a little more of how we keep our birds and the relationships we have with them.
And it totally makes sense. I am going to strive to be a good zookeeper and not just a shoulder to sit on
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"Every single time I wonder why no one mentions the similar effects on parrots held in the same conditions and why that is considered normal."
Or, how often I hear on the news "locked up like animals," or that the victim of a crime was "treated like an animal." The very expression has a negative connotation- synonymous with being treated with cruelty and meant to invoke outrage in us. Yet this never dawns on those who say it: "then why is it ok to do it to animals?"
To think that this (the mental stress) is what we do to them is bone chilling. Really calls to mind the expression "loving them to death." But I think that, slowly but surely, consciousness is coming around. The theme of the most recent (and well received) doc. on parrots is obvious, as is that of the movie "Blackfish." Cirque du Soleil, a very entertaining (non-animal) circus of highly skilled entertainers is quoted for why they dont use animals as saying "they're wild animals NOT entertainers." Hopefully using animals for selfish purposes will be a relic of our more ignorant past one day.
The Pamela Clark article is good too. As food for thought on how to improve already captive lives. I found alot of meaning in the authors she quotes but wish she included references to things such as the needs and behaviors of wild birds - as she defines them (compare to how references are cited in the first article). For example, African Greys have been seen flying after dark - by whom and where? She must have a source. Or who observed parrots' feeding habits, studied their juvenile development, their need to keep busy, etc. etc. Just saying that backing these things up would be helpful. There was a thread not too long ago where the majority of those who do not take their birds for regular wellness exams cited "exposure to illnesses" as the primary reason. She doesn't include this as a reason in her article- not a big deal but worth pointing out. She also has a obvious bias against cages and wing-clipping. Again, ok, but she uses them as her main example of what's wrong with captivity. And that's how she interprets the quotes she uses (below) but doesn't seem to consider that "captivity" itself could be the problem. As the first article says, its more than just a "slight" altering of their natural habitat and history. Although I understand that her work as a consultant aims to improve the lives of the ones already captive as they are there to stay.
"Better to devote oneself to anger and bereavement, to confront the real possibility that soon there will be nowhere left to go, anywhere, to see an orchid in the wild, than to derive a single iota of pleasure from these small, doomed relics of a home that’s forever gone. "
Applied to parrots this would favor either preserving them in the wild or mourning their loss altogether rather than to collect them, to have captive parrots as the only reminder of a world gone.
As is...
"In a greenhouse these orchids (parrots) will flourish awhile and then, after a few years or many, die. A jungle is a form of eternal life, as ephemeral and enduring as the concept of love or mystery. It cannot be collected."
Beautiful quotes.
Or, how often I hear on the news "locked up like animals," or that the victim of a crime was "treated like an animal." The very expression has a negative connotation- synonymous with being treated with cruelty and meant to invoke outrage in us. Yet this never dawns on those who say it: "then why is it ok to do it to animals?"
To think that this (the mental stress) is what we do to them is bone chilling. Really calls to mind the expression "loving them to death." But I think that, slowly but surely, consciousness is coming around. The theme of the most recent (and well received) doc. on parrots is obvious, as is that of the movie "Blackfish." Cirque du Soleil, a very entertaining (non-animal) circus of highly skilled entertainers is quoted for why they dont use animals as saying "they're wild animals NOT entertainers." Hopefully using animals for selfish purposes will be a relic of our more ignorant past one day.
The Pamela Clark article is good too. As food for thought on how to improve already captive lives. I found alot of meaning in the authors she quotes but wish she included references to things such as the needs and behaviors of wild birds - as she defines them (compare to how references are cited in the first article). For example, African Greys have been seen flying after dark - by whom and where? She must have a source. Or who observed parrots' feeding habits, studied their juvenile development, their need to keep busy, etc. etc. Just saying that backing these things up would be helpful. There was a thread not too long ago where the majority of those who do not take their birds for regular wellness exams cited "exposure to illnesses" as the primary reason. She doesn't include this as a reason in her article- not a big deal but worth pointing out. She also has a obvious bias against cages and wing-clipping. Again, ok, but she uses them as her main example of what's wrong with captivity. And that's how she interprets the quotes she uses (below) but doesn't seem to consider that "captivity" itself could be the problem. As the first article says, its more than just a "slight" altering of their natural habitat and history. Although I understand that her work as a consultant aims to improve the lives of the ones already captive as they are there to stay.
"Better to devote oneself to anger and bereavement, to confront the real possibility that soon there will be nowhere left to go, anywhere, to see an orchid in the wild, than to derive a single iota of pleasure from these small, doomed relics of a home that’s forever gone. "
Applied to parrots this would favor either preserving them in the wild or mourning their loss altogether rather than to collect them, to have captive parrots as the only reminder of a world gone.
As is...
"In a greenhouse these orchids (parrots) will flourish awhile and then, after a few years or many, die. A jungle is a form of eternal life, as ephemeral and enduring as the concept of love or mystery. It cannot be collected."
Beautiful quotes.
Last edited:
melissasparrots
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Well I'm not likely to put too much stock in Why the Caged Bird does not Sing. Right off the top it sets out to appeal to you emotionally rather than logically. For starters, the pictures are heart drenching. Not a single picture of a fully feathered or properly cared for bird, or really any mention that its even possible for a bird to be happy in captivity. Then it goes on to list all the problems associated with rescued birds and lists at least a couple of rescue organizations. Now, we can certainly compare traumatized parrot behavior with traumatized human behavior. Does that mean we can compare a traumatized parrot with a happy healthy human or vice versa? To me this article ignores the possibility that an alternate reality is capable of existing. One in which the bird is actually happy in someone's living room.
A far more thought provoking article IMO was the one Monica posted. I will say, I noticed who authored it at the top and almost immediately clicked out of it. In fact, I think Monica posted it before and I disregarded it completely based on the author. Pam Clark was one of the first people I actually did a paying consult with when Ariel, my GSC2 went off the deep end after I had to give her shots. In fact, I credit advice I got from Pam and several other "behaviorists" for it taking Ariel so long to come back to mental health. I also don't like it where she said parrots aren't meant to be in captivity. But then she also said "Nor am I suggesting it is wrong to keep them in cages and enjoy them. I am suggesting, however, that we do so consciously and with compassion and with respect." Which I will agree with. So I'm guessing she is still working out her thoughts on that one with herself. I also highly disagree with what she said about fear being encouraged by trying to comfort a scared bird. That may be true in some birds and you probably should not reward fear behavior, but focusing on that statement is not going to help a scared bird become less scared. That was the focus of our consult and led down a completely wrong path of trying to train her to show more acceptable behaviors. However, she did go on to talk about how important it is for the bird to have control over its environment, be able to make some decisions regarding foraging etc. And that IMO is correct and in my experience with my bird, figuring out how to make that work in my living room was critical in getting her happy and no longer living in a cold dark state of fear all the time.
The part that surprised me(because I went into it expecting to disagree with everything she said) was all the stuff about the emotional expectations and needs of people. I think breeders are just as guilty of it as the anti-breeders. Just in different ways. I will also agree that we live in environments that are so much built around ourselves and our own creations that we struggle to just accept what is. Just for what it is and the nature of reality as it is. It was a HUGE thing for me to overcome with Ariel my fearful GSC2. I knew academically that my feelings of incompleteness, betrayal, anger, sadness etc were not helping my bird get better. But it took me years to let go of those things and accept that animals (all of them even dogs and cats although less so to them) just live at a different energy level and have different basic drives than we do. I got a cockatoo because I wanted a snuggly bird. I knew they can bite, and I’d read the www.mytoos.com website. I was prepared for plucking, screaming, biting. But I wasn’t prepared for my bird to be afraid of me. That for a period of about 7 years the emotional needs I wanted to have fulfilled by getting a cockatoo would be not only not fulfilled at all, but turned into huge amounts of anxiety and worry.
Birds don't exist to make us happy, but if we have our head on straight and do it right, there is nothing wrong with the fact that life with birds can make us happier. People that haven't spent much time out in the real nature, getting to know it for all its beauty and tragedy don't get it. Sometimes I struggle myself to get it. I'll feel out of sorts, too many thoughts going through my head. So I'll sit down and try to concentrate on the reality of life outside of human creations. Sometimes it takes me a good 30 minutes of fidgeting, setting aside all the emotions that I felt during my teaching day, personal relationships, expectations, all of want I want, can and can't have. All that stuff has no bearing on individual animals or their emotions.
So your people that do rescue, are clearly having their emotional needs met when they do a rescue, come online and type out this huge long winded post about the horrible conditions this sweet baby was found in and we all give them lots of attention and affirmation for saving the poor tortured soul. Don't get me wrong, saving an animal in need is certainly a good deed. However, I worry that we are distorting the potential other reality where the bird has a good life by creating a culture of rescue. A culture in which humans are the bad guys, rescuing is good(of course its always good to rescue) but people that don't rescue are somehow lessor. Or for some people, rescuing an animal somehow helps them to love it more because of their own involvement and the feelings they have when nurturing. I also think people that rescue are more likely to talk up the virtues of getting an older bird because some of them don't go into the rescue with the same emotional expectations as someone getting a chick from a breeder. So the bird can't fail them and they don't have all these negative feelings. A really good deed isn't looking for the bird to like them back for rescuing them, isn't looking for anyone else to give them a pat on the back for doing a good deed. They are in it purely for making the animal happy. And to me that is something more people should do regardless if they rescue only, breed, or purchase from a breeder. Although, in many cases it is easier to live with a bird that comes from a breeder or has been well raised. Its easier to have our emotional needs fulfilled. But, before purchasing any pet, we also have to be prepared for the alternate to happen. Where the bird doesn’t turn out like we wanted, and yet we should still be prepared to love it anyway. And to do that selfless act which is to make the bird happy even if we get nothing for it in return other than fulfillment for making another being’s life good.
Letting go of all our human emotions that are wrapped up in a need to satisfy our own emotional needs can really clear our heads and simplify things. Instead of thinking, "I'm frustrated by my inability to make my macaw happy in my home, therefor they aren't meant to be in captivity." I'd rather see people thinking "what can I do to make my bird happy." It takes the focus on the human needs, and puts the focus on the bird's needs which in many cases are much simpler than we think they are. The anti-breeder contingent will think anything short of flying free with their own kind is a disservice. However, if you start thinking about giving control back to your bird then things get a little easier. We stop thinking so much about our feelings of guilt and inadequacy and more about just making the bird happy. Examining the birds reality. Not the reality that we think it should be mixed in with all our positive and negative emotions. But simply what is. Then, how do I take things that aren't so good for my bird and make it better. IMO, things that make most species happy are things that allow them to use the tools evolution gave their physical bodies to do. No, that does not have to mean flying through the trees IMO. Things that make people feel really fulfilled involve food handling(everything from hunting to gardening and cooking), ability to use tools and build stuff, parenthood, nurturing which probably feeds back into all the emotions regarding rescue, ability to compete and use our physical selves. Instead of fighting wars, we can compete in a friendly basketball game. Things that work our physical selves for what we have evolved to do. After all, basketball probably wasn't around 6,000 years ago and yet people today really love the sport and those that play it feel really fulfilled and better with themselves for it. Its a substitution for what we evolved to do, but just because its a substitution, doesn't make it less gratifying.
So in a similar way, you can look at some things your bird would be doing in the wild with their physical self and find substitutions that will work in the living room. Of course a rescued bird is going to have problems with those things. A neglected child would have problems behaving normally too. It doesn't mean that a well raised child is suffering horribly because another child it never met is being neglected and living in squalor. It doesn’t mean that a child living in the city playing the flute is less fulfilled that a kid living the country riding a horse or driving a tractor.
I really like being able to provide an outdoor aviary and letting birds be fully flighted. However, since I don't have an outdoor aviary, and my most complex bird is not flighted due to one of her parents taking off a wing tip in the nest box, I have to find other things for her to do. Since she can't fly, I take her for walks around the block several times a week or hold our cuddle sessions outside if the wind and temps aren't too bad. When the weather is purely nasty, we go for car rides. Birds in the wild forage. Birds in captivity can forage too. If your bird can't fly, give it a boing and let it do what many bird eventually learn to do on their own with a boing which is flap their wings really hard and make it move. I do think some species might benefit from having other birds around. Some species adapt to being single parrots better though. So, for busy people that don't want multiple pets, an amazon would be a good choice. An african grey maybe not.
People are certainly capable of making intelligent decisions regarding their pets. However, many people live their lives emotionally rather than logically. It can ruin both human:human relationships and our human:avian relationships. Sometimes its good to divorce your emotions as much as possible for a while. To give up want you want and just look at what is. Sometimes what we want is irrelevant and releasing ourselves from our own unproductive desires can lead to a different kind of fulfillment.
The flip side, many breeders adamantly disregard that parrots are not always well kept. They ignore that rescues are needed or that not all the birds they sell are going to excellent homes. They breed for the emotional need of nurturing a chick, or to make money while enjoying nurturing a chick. With all that focus on their own emotions, they can easily disregard the long term welfare of the animal they sell. And many people because they were raised in those dysfunctional homes as Pam pointed out, are not very good judges of character. They consider good as what is familiar to them. Not what really is good. Deep down in the character of the person Good. And in doing so, they can do a lot of damage to the species. The hard work of breeding comes in weeding out all the emotional garbage of potential buyers and finding someone that not only is a good emotional match for the bird with expectations the bird can actually meet, but also is themselves a person of character and able to do good for the bird, even when times are tough. I don't sell the co-dependent people. If I get the slightest co-dependent vibe from someone, I tell them to get a dog. I also explain life with the bird in ways that the bird will not meet their emotional needs and make sure they are willing to live with that and that they aren't just agreeing with me to placate me and let them buy a bird.
I think everyone could be a little more selfless when making better lives for their birds. That might mean you just have to move beyond some of your negative emotions and eventually get to something productive.
A far more thought provoking article IMO was the one Monica posted. I will say, I noticed who authored it at the top and almost immediately clicked out of it. In fact, I think Monica posted it before and I disregarded it completely based on the author. Pam Clark was one of the first people I actually did a paying consult with when Ariel, my GSC2 went off the deep end after I had to give her shots. In fact, I credit advice I got from Pam and several other "behaviorists" for it taking Ariel so long to come back to mental health. I also don't like it where she said parrots aren't meant to be in captivity. But then she also said "Nor am I suggesting it is wrong to keep them in cages and enjoy them. I am suggesting, however, that we do so consciously and with compassion and with respect." Which I will agree with. So I'm guessing she is still working out her thoughts on that one with herself. I also highly disagree with what she said about fear being encouraged by trying to comfort a scared bird. That may be true in some birds and you probably should not reward fear behavior, but focusing on that statement is not going to help a scared bird become less scared. That was the focus of our consult and led down a completely wrong path of trying to train her to show more acceptable behaviors. However, she did go on to talk about how important it is for the bird to have control over its environment, be able to make some decisions regarding foraging etc. And that IMO is correct and in my experience with my bird, figuring out how to make that work in my living room was critical in getting her happy and no longer living in a cold dark state of fear all the time.
The part that surprised me(because I went into it expecting to disagree with everything she said) was all the stuff about the emotional expectations and needs of people. I think breeders are just as guilty of it as the anti-breeders. Just in different ways. I will also agree that we live in environments that are so much built around ourselves and our own creations that we struggle to just accept what is. Just for what it is and the nature of reality as it is. It was a HUGE thing for me to overcome with Ariel my fearful GSC2. I knew academically that my feelings of incompleteness, betrayal, anger, sadness etc were not helping my bird get better. But it took me years to let go of those things and accept that animals (all of them even dogs and cats although less so to them) just live at a different energy level and have different basic drives than we do. I got a cockatoo because I wanted a snuggly bird. I knew they can bite, and I’d read the www.mytoos.com website. I was prepared for plucking, screaming, biting. But I wasn’t prepared for my bird to be afraid of me. That for a period of about 7 years the emotional needs I wanted to have fulfilled by getting a cockatoo would be not only not fulfilled at all, but turned into huge amounts of anxiety and worry.
Birds don't exist to make us happy, but if we have our head on straight and do it right, there is nothing wrong with the fact that life with birds can make us happier. People that haven't spent much time out in the real nature, getting to know it for all its beauty and tragedy don't get it. Sometimes I struggle myself to get it. I'll feel out of sorts, too many thoughts going through my head. So I'll sit down and try to concentrate on the reality of life outside of human creations. Sometimes it takes me a good 30 minutes of fidgeting, setting aside all the emotions that I felt during my teaching day, personal relationships, expectations, all of want I want, can and can't have. All that stuff has no bearing on individual animals or their emotions.
So your people that do rescue, are clearly having their emotional needs met when they do a rescue, come online and type out this huge long winded post about the horrible conditions this sweet baby was found in and we all give them lots of attention and affirmation for saving the poor tortured soul. Don't get me wrong, saving an animal in need is certainly a good deed. However, I worry that we are distorting the potential other reality where the bird has a good life by creating a culture of rescue. A culture in which humans are the bad guys, rescuing is good(of course its always good to rescue) but people that don't rescue are somehow lessor. Or for some people, rescuing an animal somehow helps them to love it more because of their own involvement and the feelings they have when nurturing. I also think people that rescue are more likely to talk up the virtues of getting an older bird because some of them don't go into the rescue with the same emotional expectations as someone getting a chick from a breeder. So the bird can't fail them and they don't have all these negative feelings. A really good deed isn't looking for the bird to like them back for rescuing them, isn't looking for anyone else to give them a pat on the back for doing a good deed. They are in it purely for making the animal happy. And to me that is something more people should do regardless if they rescue only, breed, or purchase from a breeder. Although, in many cases it is easier to live with a bird that comes from a breeder or has been well raised. Its easier to have our emotional needs fulfilled. But, before purchasing any pet, we also have to be prepared for the alternate to happen. Where the bird doesn’t turn out like we wanted, and yet we should still be prepared to love it anyway. And to do that selfless act which is to make the bird happy even if we get nothing for it in return other than fulfillment for making another being’s life good.
Letting go of all our human emotions that are wrapped up in a need to satisfy our own emotional needs can really clear our heads and simplify things. Instead of thinking, "I'm frustrated by my inability to make my macaw happy in my home, therefor they aren't meant to be in captivity." I'd rather see people thinking "what can I do to make my bird happy." It takes the focus on the human needs, and puts the focus on the bird's needs which in many cases are much simpler than we think they are. The anti-breeder contingent will think anything short of flying free with their own kind is a disservice. However, if you start thinking about giving control back to your bird then things get a little easier. We stop thinking so much about our feelings of guilt and inadequacy and more about just making the bird happy. Examining the birds reality. Not the reality that we think it should be mixed in with all our positive and negative emotions. But simply what is. Then, how do I take things that aren't so good for my bird and make it better. IMO, things that make most species happy are things that allow them to use the tools evolution gave their physical bodies to do. No, that does not have to mean flying through the trees IMO. Things that make people feel really fulfilled involve food handling(everything from hunting to gardening and cooking), ability to use tools and build stuff, parenthood, nurturing which probably feeds back into all the emotions regarding rescue, ability to compete and use our physical selves. Instead of fighting wars, we can compete in a friendly basketball game. Things that work our physical selves for what we have evolved to do. After all, basketball probably wasn't around 6,000 years ago and yet people today really love the sport and those that play it feel really fulfilled and better with themselves for it. Its a substitution for what we evolved to do, but just because its a substitution, doesn't make it less gratifying.
So in a similar way, you can look at some things your bird would be doing in the wild with their physical self and find substitutions that will work in the living room. Of course a rescued bird is going to have problems with those things. A neglected child would have problems behaving normally too. It doesn't mean that a well raised child is suffering horribly because another child it never met is being neglected and living in squalor. It doesn’t mean that a child living in the city playing the flute is less fulfilled that a kid living the country riding a horse or driving a tractor.
I really like being able to provide an outdoor aviary and letting birds be fully flighted. However, since I don't have an outdoor aviary, and my most complex bird is not flighted due to one of her parents taking off a wing tip in the nest box, I have to find other things for her to do. Since she can't fly, I take her for walks around the block several times a week or hold our cuddle sessions outside if the wind and temps aren't too bad. When the weather is purely nasty, we go for car rides. Birds in the wild forage. Birds in captivity can forage too. If your bird can't fly, give it a boing and let it do what many bird eventually learn to do on their own with a boing which is flap their wings really hard and make it move. I do think some species might benefit from having other birds around. Some species adapt to being single parrots better though. So, for busy people that don't want multiple pets, an amazon would be a good choice. An african grey maybe not.
People are certainly capable of making intelligent decisions regarding their pets. However, many people live their lives emotionally rather than logically. It can ruin both human:human relationships and our human:avian relationships. Sometimes its good to divorce your emotions as much as possible for a while. To give up want you want and just look at what is. Sometimes what we want is irrelevant and releasing ourselves from our own unproductive desires can lead to a different kind of fulfillment.
The flip side, many breeders adamantly disregard that parrots are not always well kept. They ignore that rescues are needed or that not all the birds they sell are going to excellent homes. They breed for the emotional need of nurturing a chick, or to make money while enjoying nurturing a chick. With all that focus on their own emotions, they can easily disregard the long term welfare of the animal they sell. And many people because they were raised in those dysfunctional homes as Pam pointed out, are not very good judges of character. They consider good as what is familiar to them. Not what really is good. Deep down in the character of the person Good. And in doing so, they can do a lot of damage to the species. The hard work of breeding comes in weeding out all the emotional garbage of potential buyers and finding someone that not only is a good emotional match for the bird with expectations the bird can actually meet, but also is themselves a person of character and able to do good for the bird, even when times are tough. I don't sell the co-dependent people. If I get the slightest co-dependent vibe from someone, I tell them to get a dog. I also explain life with the bird in ways that the bird will not meet their emotional needs and make sure they are willing to live with that and that they aren't just agreeing with me to placate me and let them buy a bird.
I think everyone could be a little more selfless when making better lives for their birds. That might mean you just have to move beyond some of your negative emotions and eventually get to something productive.
Monica
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David, Pamela does explain in her article why she's pro-flight. I do understand your points though.
Melissa, in regards to not rewarding a terrified animal, I do understand that. I've seen it with dogs so much! I've seen people pick up and pamper a dog when it's acting aggressive or terrified, which only reinforces the belief in that dog that he or she should act that way. It's one thing to comfort an animal that needs comfort. It's another to unknowingly reward that state of mind.
When Charlie came to me, he was afraid of dogs. If he saw a dog or heard a dog, he would scream! Mitred conures are loud enough when they aren't screaming from fright! When I was out walking with him and he started screaming because of a dog, I would immediately put a bounce into my step which distracted him, then I'd comfort him. Surprisingly, it worked. Now he's ok with dogs. It may have helped that my dog isn't much of a barker and he doesn't really have much interest in the other animals in the house.
I've also read plenty of occurrences when a perfectly tame and friendly bird has a 'fight or flight' reaction, the bird takes flight, freaking out, then the human rushes over to comfort the bird. What just happened? Bird learned that their human is scary! The birds associated their fear with their human, even if the human wasn't the one who scared them. It would then take at least days or weeks before the bird got over their unrationalized fears. Because of this, I often recommend allowing the bird to calm down some before trying to interact with them.
It is in our nature to want to comfort others and to provide support. However, it can at times be more harmful than good. It really depends on the situation.
Melissa, in regards to not rewarding a terrified animal, I do understand that. I've seen it with dogs so much! I've seen people pick up and pamper a dog when it's acting aggressive or terrified, which only reinforces the belief in that dog that he or she should act that way. It's one thing to comfort an animal that needs comfort. It's another to unknowingly reward that state of mind.
When Charlie came to me, he was afraid of dogs. If he saw a dog or heard a dog, he would scream! Mitred conures are loud enough when they aren't screaming from fright! When I was out walking with him and he started screaming because of a dog, I would immediately put a bounce into my step which distracted him, then I'd comfort him. Surprisingly, it worked. Now he's ok with dogs. It may have helped that my dog isn't much of a barker and he doesn't really have much interest in the other animals in the house.
I've also read plenty of occurrences when a perfectly tame and friendly bird has a 'fight or flight' reaction, the bird takes flight, freaking out, then the human rushes over to comfort the bird. What just happened? Bird learned that their human is scary! The birds associated their fear with their human, even if the human wasn't the one who scared them. It would then take at least days or weeks before the bird got over their unrationalized fears. Because of this, I often recommend allowing the bird to calm down some before trying to interact with them.
It is in our nature to want to comfort others and to provide support. However, it can at times be more harmful than good. It really depends on the situation.
Melissa, I enjoyed your post, even though I didn't agree with quite all of it. I think it provides an interesting countervailing view, and I like your common-sense approach. Partly going along with what you said about the failure to acknowledge that some birds do fairly well in captivity, I'd also just like to note for the record that my birds do sing, just not very well, ha.
But, I'll also throw out my usual thoughts on rehome and rescue birds, which is that I feel that rehomes and rescues can be just as well behaved and rewarding to own as those reared by good breeders, and, many times, they were raised by good breeders just a short time previously. I know that Zoe and Keene were. I just ended up being their second or third home. That's not the same thing as going to a rescue and getting a traumatized bird like my Liam. And, yes, he has the legendary "baggage" and isn't most people's idea of a good "pet." That doesn't mean I have a saint complex for having him. I just like Illiger's But, my most emotionally rich relationship with a parrot is with my rehome RFM, not my breeder-bought Hahn's (although I love him too). I think people often discuss this issue via a false dichotomy: baby or rescue. Really, there's a whole range or spectrum of rehome adoption possibilities in between. Many parrots being rehomed are not significantly different from breeder-bought babies. Two of mine were under a year of age, so there wasn't much time to develop baggage. They are both male minis, though, and those people realized quickly that that wasn't what they had in mind, even with the first wave of adolescence.
I partly agreed with what you said about a culture of stigma for those who choose, for whatever reason, to buy a baby, although I think that is only partly a knee-jerk reaction and partly warranted based on many individual cases--the insistence on a baby is often a function of ignorance, namely the mistaken belief that they're better off with a parrot they raise themselves. And, it's not the breeder who teaches the baby how to be an adult parrot in a human household--it's the first owner. And, because that involves a very different skill set from dog ownership, some people who are kind and good people are still not the right people to do that, although others do a fine job. My BGM's first owners did pretty well with her, even though they didn't have all the needed resources. I liked Pamela Clark's emphasis on parrot-keeping as a form of "zoo-keeping" rather than typical domestic pet ownership. I've said similar things myself without having read her thoughts. So many people just don't realize how different parrots are. I like your advice to some to get a dog. That's really what many people actually want, although they may not know it.
About the culture of stigma for those who choose to buy a baby: I know of long-term members here who have bought babies and gotten static or who've even lied and hidden the fact that they bought the bird, either never revealing the bird to the AA community or making up a story about where the bird came from. I'm not sure I understand that choice, but I can see why they might feel that way. I bought my female Hahn's Mattie from a breeder after I had a full awareness of the rehome cycle, but I specifically wanted a female Hahn's, because I thought that would be best for my Max. I didn't get much static, a little, but that was because I explained the choice and underlying reality that female minis don't land in the rehome cycle nearly as often as males. There are many reasons why people make the choices they do, and I think a little more slack can be offered in some instances, although I also think that some of the reasons why people get babies are inherently flawed (because they just don't want to deal with an ordinary, reasonably well-behaved adult parrot--which, with any luck, is precisely what the baby will become in a few years--and it can be so much more disappointing to have a bird change than to go into it with eyes open. People can claim they won't be disappointed, but there's often the mindset of "my baby is different and will remain this way forever," which I've seen over and over and over again).
Anyway, I thoroughly agreed with what you said about breeders going into it refusing to think that their birds could end up in the rehome cycle, when it is patently clear that so many birds do, or else doing it for the money and not really caring where the birds end up. I think Keene's breeder was pretty surprised and a little upset when I informed her how I had adopted the baby she'd raised a year and a half earlier. I don't think Illy Patrick's breeder was all that shocked, though.
I know Illy Liam's wasn't.
But, I'll also throw out my usual thoughts on rehome and rescue birds, which is that I feel that rehomes and rescues can be just as well behaved and rewarding to own as those reared by good breeders, and, many times, they were raised by good breeders just a short time previously. I know that Zoe and Keene were. I just ended up being their second or third home. That's not the same thing as going to a rescue and getting a traumatized bird like my Liam. And, yes, he has the legendary "baggage" and isn't most people's idea of a good "pet." That doesn't mean I have a saint complex for having him. I just like Illiger's
But, my most emotionally rich relationship with a parrot is with my rehome RFM, not my breeder-bought Hahn's (although I love him too). I think people often discuss this issue via a false dichotomy: baby or rescue. Really, there's a whole range or spectrum of rehome adoption possibilities in between. Many parrots being rehomed are not significantly different from breeder-bought babies. Two of mine were under a year of age, so there wasn't much time to develop baggage. They are both male minis, though, and those people realized quickly that that wasn't what they had in mind, even with the first wave of adolescence. I partly agreed with what you said about a culture of stigma for those who choose, for whatever reason, to buy a baby, although I think that is only partly a knee-jerk reaction and partly warranted based on many individual cases--the insistence on a baby is often a function of ignorance, namely the mistaken belief that they're better off with a parrot they raise themselves. And, it's not the breeder who teaches the baby how to be an adult parrot in a human household--it's the first owner. And, because that involves a very different skill set from dog ownership, some people who are kind and good people are still not the right people to do that, although others do a fine job. My BGM's first owners did pretty well with her, even though they didn't have all the needed resources. I liked Pamela Clark's emphasis on parrot-keeping as a form of "zoo-keeping" rather than typical domestic pet ownership. I've said similar things myself without having read her thoughts. So many people just don't realize how different parrots are. I like your advice to some to get a dog. That's really what many people actually want, although they may not know it.
About the culture of stigma for those who choose to buy a baby: I know of long-term members here who have bought babies and gotten static or who've even lied and hidden the fact that they bought the bird, either never revealing the bird to the AA community or making up a story about where the bird came from. I'm not sure I understand that choice, but I can see why they might feel that way. I bought my female Hahn's Mattie from a breeder after I had a full awareness of the rehome cycle, but I specifically wanted a female Hahn's, because I thought that would be best for my Max. I didn't get much static, a little, but that was because I explained the choice and underlying reality that female minis don't land in the rehome cycle nearly as often as males. There are many reasons why people make the choices they do, and I think a little more slack can be offered in some instances, although I also think that some of the reasons why people get babies are inherently flawed (because they just don't want to deal with an ordinary, reasonably well-behaved adult parrot--which, with any luck, is precisely what the baby will become in a few years--and it can be so much more disappointing to have a bird change than to go into it with eyes open. People can claim they won't be disappointed, but there's often the mindset of "my baby is different and will remain this way forever," which I've seen over and over and over again).
Anyway, I thoroughly agreed with what you said about breeders going into it refusing to think that their birds could end up in the rehome cycle, when it is patently clear that so many birds do, or else doing it for the money and not really caring where the birds end up. I think Keene's breeder was pretty surprised and a little upset when I informed her how I had adopted the baby she'd raised a year and a half earlier. I don't think Illy Patrick's breeder was all that shocked, though.
I know Illy Liam's wasn't.
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melissasparrots, I enjoyed reading your post for the same reason, and without repeating what Holiday said. Although, I disagree that the first article is an emotional appeal rather than a logical one. I think it's the opposite. I'm actually planning on looking into some of those rescues supplying that data. I also want to put out there that I don't necessarily consider a rescued bird to be "saved." Many here know this better than I do, and as per the examples in the article, many birds have lifelong struggles as a result of various upbringings/experiences. They may end up in a rescue surrounded by caring people but thier problems are far from over.
Also, without going back and re-reading I don't believe it's possible to reward fear or anxiety. Only to shut them off, so to speak. Waiting for test results at a doctors office comes to mind....one may feel anxiety until the doctor tells us we're fine. I don't look at that as a reward only an alleviation of that fear. Thoughs?
But I fully agree with what you're saying about substitutions. How an emotional need to forage or to seek can be met in our homes through foraging toys, and several other examples you mentined.
I think that, being in the industry for over 40 years, Pamela does believe that parrots don't belong in captivity. But the reality she works in is that they're here. I think she wants others to realise it as well and to use that as a basis for husbandry practices. I wonder how much she has seen and what, in her opinion, is the ratio of homes that can provide for a parrot (and make the types of changes she's reccommends) to those that cannot. I can only guess that it's greatly one-sided.
I also strongly agree with her view on preserving them in their natural habitat. Anyone who owns parrots is brought in to the consciousness of their plight and endangered status. But I believe that when she talks about how we've distanced ourselves from nature, how our needs/desires are no longer survival based (for example, status sympols, cell-phones, cars, clothing to impress) that these material posessions include animals as well. I think conservation issues are brushed aside because we like to "own" and if it's not ours we don't care. Unfortunately this puts parrots in the category of posessions as well. And how much inconvenience is a person willing to put up with in a mere posession? Hypothetically.
Also, without going back and re-reading I don't believe it's possible to reward fear or anxiety. Only to shut them off, so to speak. Waiting for test results at a doctors office comes to mind....one may feel anxiety until the doctor tells us we're fine. I don't look at that as a reward only an alleviation of that fear. Thoughs?
But I fully agree with what you're saying about substitutions. How an emotional need to forage or to seek can be met in our homes through foraging toys, and several other examples you mentined.
I think that, being in the industry for over 40 years, Pamela does believe that parrots don't belong in captivity. But the reality she works in is that they're here. I think she wants others to realise it as well and to use that as a basis for husbandry practices. I wonder how much she has seen and what, in her opinion, is the ratio of homes that can provide for a parrot (and make the types of changes she's reccommends) to those that cannot. I can only guess that it's greatly one-sided.
I also strongly agree with her view on preserving them in their natural habitat. Anyone who owns parrots is brought in to the consciousness of their plight and endangered status. But I believe that when she talks about how we've distanced ourselves from nature, how our needs/desires are no longer survival based (for example, status sympols, cell-phones, cars, clothing to impress) that these material posessions include animals as well. I think conservation issues are brushed aside because we like to "own" and if it's not ours we don't care. Unfortunately this puts parrots in the category of posessions as well. And how much inconvenience is a person willing to put up with in a mere posession? Hypothetically.
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I have to agree with you there. You see this idea a lot in dog training discussions and most behaviorists that I'm familiar with believe that you can't reinforce/reward emotional states. You can reinforce behavior, but not emotion. Fear is an emotion, the animal will experience it in a fear provoking situation regardless of how the person responds. I see a lot of unnecessary anxiety and, thus, poor behavior because an owner has been told not to "coddle" their little dog when it gets nervous or you'll just make it more fearful.
It could all be nipped in the bud by a gentle pat, a calm "It'll be okay" and just a little reassurance from the human. Instead the animal is forced to escalate from a little unsure/fearful to full out frantic panic because nobody bothers to give a little reassurance. At that point the person finally picks the dog up. So the next time the dog is fearful it skips right to the "frantic panic" behaviors because it has learned that the more subtle signs will get it nowhere. The fear hasn't changed, it was no more fearful the second time around than the first...just the outward behavioral display has been ramped up because the more subtle signs were ignored.
When your five year old is nervous and scared of their first day at kindergarten and balks as you're walking into those school doors for the very first time, what do you do? Most people reach down and grab their kid's hand and give it a gentle squeeze, acknowledge that it is scary but also assure them that everything will be okay. Why we don't do the same for an animal (whether a parrot, cat or dog) I just don't understand.
Shivan
Walking the driveway
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Am I the only one who's seeing the irony here? These people all have birds. Everyone on here has birds. Isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to type with one hand how awful it is to have captive birds, and with the other hand caress our favorite fid? And I'm not talking about anyone specifically, just the idea of it. And it doesn't matter if your bird is a rescue, rehome, or hand reared baby, because you're still supporting the billion dollar industry that birds generate...food, cages, toys, etc.
Parrots are here to stay. And happiness and well-being are not dependent on geography. It's a state of mind, and we all know when our birds are healthy and happy. and there's my 2 cents.
Parrots are here to stay. And happiness and well-being are not dependent on geography. It's a state of mind, and we all know when our birds are healthy and happy.
and there's my 2 cents.
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- David
"Why we don't do the same for an animal (whether a parrot, cat or dog) I just don't understand."
When parrots are fearful or anxious they tend to display behaviors that the average person considers "bad," or unwanted. People have been taught to ignore these behaviors. To expect them to escalate and then lead to an "extintion burst," whererby the behavior extinguishes because it doesn't bring about any reward. I think this focus on what we want, and then misapplying the advice, rather than on the animals emotion, age, circumstance, is the reason - in brief.
When parrots are fearful or anxious they tend to display behaviors that the average person considers "bad," or unwanted. People have been taught to ignore these behaviors. To expect them to escalate and then lead to an "extintion burst," whererby the behavior extinguishes because it doesn't bring about any reward. I think this focus on what we want, and then misapplying the advice, rather than on the animals emotion, age, circumstance, is the reason - in brief.
