What will you do when you are gone...

[Bokkapooh]

If you did this when you first got him, you didn't train or teach appropriate behavior, you punished.

Which is why Sid may be afraid of you Sophie's Mama. He knows you did the bad stuff, so he associates the punishment with you. I know you dont care why the a "NO" work, but as long as it works. But dont you want to know if its having a negative impact on your bird?

I know many of us may be guilty of using negative reinforcement on somebody we loved, but after we do research and read books up on behavioral training, and behavioral modification techniques that use POSITIVE reinforcement, we learned that what we do isnt as successful as positive reinfocement.

I use to yell at my dog for whenever she barked.. she just wagged her tail and look up at me. I have to admit, she used to be an excesive barker, but then after I and most of my family, ignored her when she would (sahe coppied her father, the rootie with this) bark at butterflies, birds, etc, and then look up at us and wag her tail BEFORE we even said anything..

But with parrots, they are prey animals, and they can develope major behavioral problems if they are yelled at or squirted. I work with many umbies that I have gotten in in the past 4 months, and many of them were physically abused either by hands, brooms, water bottles and verbally abused. They werent allowed to be birds. People had too high of standards for them, and didnt let them be who they are.. most of my rescues have feather related disorders and neurotic behaviors(rocking back and forth and shunning from fingers and if you look at them in the face). Most of my rescues are now very good at not being excessive screamers(the non-breeding comapnion birds were all excessive screamers when I got them in between 1.5-4months ago). And with AVIARY cockatoos, Umbrellas are known to let the world know about their existence. But for the most part, you dont know they are there, between the magnolias and fruit trees.

Its sad that you think screaming is a bad negative behavior I dont think any of my birds would be happy if they werent allowed to let loose with us encouraging it, atleast once a day.

Excessive screaming = bad. But being loud and happy birds and screaming while you beat up a toy and flap your whings while upside down on the 6ft java stand(just describing what Opa did right now, lol)..thats just normal behavior.

 

[Sophie's Mama]

If you did this when you first got him, you didn't train or teach appropriate behavior, you punished.

Absolutely, I intended to keep him the rest of his life and the constant screaming that he had learned at the previous home was not acceptable here. He was squirted twice. Never again...Never needed it again. But if you want a book I will give it....He was also positively reinforced by treats when he was being good, play time when he was quiet and we were all sitting as a family... After the initial water bottle training, if I said No and he stopped he was picked up and cuddled, or a treat was given. It is not a all or nothing. We use what works...So if getting this type of attention was "punishment" so be it. Now think about this....out there are birds that are driving their owners crazy screaming, and they have no clue as to how to get the attention of these loud babies. they were uneducated when they bought them, and can't have a loud, or biting bird as a pet....what now? That is how so many end up in rescue or homes that will not commit to them for a lifetime. My birds are definitely PARROTS! But they are generally well behaved and learning more every day. They are not excessive with their "vocalizing", so I have no trouble with my family or my neighbors, I can bring guests into my home and have a nice conversation without removing them to a "bird room" away from the family they have learned to love. they are being socialized so that they are not biting strangers and giving cuddles to the family. They will not be on a missing list for escaped birds, or a rescue or re homing list because their behavior is so bad that they can't be lived with in the average family, and when I die they will not be the "problem" bird that I left that no one wants to deal with. All in all they found a home. It is responsible and loving, it gives them a good diet, attention, toys and a healthy atmosphere. And as I have been told a unhappy bird will definitely let you know. They seem so happy. So before you criticize, remember where they came from and that they are one of the lucky ones that have a good loving home, after living in h---.

 

[Greycloud]

Geez, I go away for an hour and all hell breaks loose!

 

[Sophie's Mama]

Geez, I go away for an hour and all hell breaks loose!

Just differences of opinion....

 

[Birdiemarie]

I use the word NO! The birds quiet right down, now that may be because the dogs go lay down and the kids settle down...not sure what the reasons are...really don't care it works.

Do you really mean that? As long as it works and they are quiet what is motivating their obedience doesn't matter.....or did you use it as a figure of speech? I'm not debating you, just find that an interesting point and know it is said sometimes as a tongue-in-cheek statement.

 

[Karen]

Lots of good reading in these articles. If you only have time to read one article PLEASE READ this one:

The Facts About Punishment: S.G. Friedman, PhD, Utah, and Bobbi Brinker, Ohio
http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/pdffiles/punishment.pdf

He Said, She Said, Science Says S. G. Friedman, Ph.D.
“Never make a parrot do something it doesn’t want to do

The Struggle for Dominance: Fact or Fiction?
S.G. Friedman, PhD, Utah, and Bobbi Brinker, Ohio
http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/pdffiles/dominance.pdf

The ABCs of Behavior
S.G. Friedman, Ph.D., Utah State University
http://www.thegabrielfoundation.org/pdffiles/ABC.pdf

Barbara Heidenreich articles;

Wow. That Bird Sure Can Scream!

What's Wrong With the Step Up Command?

 

[Cynthia & Percy]

thanks for the links Karen when I first got Percy I was taught to punish him with the water bottle It did not work that well and now after a lot of work with positive he will even let me do his nails without restraint I have not 'punished him' in years after I found out that it was wrong and he is a much better bird he is so more cooperative a joy to have

 

[Sophie's Mama]

Birdie Marie :What I mean is..Are you serious! I have several rescue birds, when I take in a bird, dog or any other pet into my household I intend it to be a member of our family. Permanently...That may not mean anything to you, but it does to me. I see rescues every day that were pets that were not trained to become the member of a family, they end up back in rescue or sheltered or worse. I usually get the "worse" case scenario. When I received Sid his conditions were terrible. Everybody knew him on the block as the bird that screamed all the time. When I saw him, he was...well lets just say it was not baring on abuse it WAS abuse. I brought him home, into a new cage, with new food and a loving home. He had become used to screaming to get attention. It was BAD! I knew it had to stop for him to remain in our home. I got his attention with a squirt from a water bottle, twice...can I say that again TWICE. It worked. After he stopped we praised him. It was done twice. He still gets baths from a water bottle, loves them! He does not "flinch" when they are around him, and we have not had to use one again. He is not kept from vocalizing...This is ridiculous! I never had to use a water bottle with Sophie, she answered to vocal commands from the start. Aggie gets loud about once a week, we just call her name and she quiets down. They all have learned I am not going any where, but none of them have used screaming as a way to get positive attention. There are many other ways to do that.

"Whatever works"... was a way of blowing you all off. You have turned this thread into a sniping session on the way I deal with my birds. And it was supposed to be about how to choose someone to care for them after we are gone, and they will out live us.

We all care for our birds differently, Every abusive owner I got a bird from, a bird that was neglected, thought they were doing it the right way. I don't agree with the safety practices of many on this forum. They don't agree with me. Most are differences of opinion. A forum is a place to exchange ideas and methods, I have not gotten any decent suggestions on different ways to train, just negative judgmental comments. That's productive.

People come on this forum that have no bird experience, judging and criticizing is one way to make them go else where, not educate them. If someone has a issue about a birds behavior, we should show them a way to try to 'oh yes the BAD word' "correct" their behavior so that another bird is not homeless, or neglected because someone can't deal with it. Some may listen, some may not, but unless they keep looking they will never learn.

I think many of you have a "my way , or the highway" approach to people and this way of thinking will never be effective!

To close, I listen to every one on this site, many have much more experience with birds than I do. I listen and in some cases I try their methods in some I don't. But unless you have been a visitor in my house, you truly have no clue as to the way my birds are cared for. Think about it!

Karen: Thanks for the links they are very helpful!

 

[Bokkapooh]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophie's Mama
I seem to see a trend of the bird being in control not the owner...

Quote:
but I know there are many who couldn't take the loud outbursts.

This is what got me in here, lol. If you have recieved rehomed birds you should know that is a frequent reason for them being rehomed.

AS for the bird being in control, no one here seems to want to change negative behavior, all we hear is it is in their nature....That doesn't keep them in a good loving home, other wise there would not be so many re homed birds.

I have mostly rescue birds, so I know what your talking about when you say these beautiful intelligent animals are being rehomed, abused and neglected so often.

However, I do not think anything that my birds do, is negative. They scream at night. I reinforce it. I only reinforce screaming and hollering and overall normal birdie happiness, at night. I want them to. I want them to let loose, and get all that excess energy out of them so they go to bed ontime without any complaints. Its there time to let loose of their days worries and excess energies. In the wild these majestic animals fly miles and miles per day screaming the whole time (most parrots scream in flight, especially macaws and cockatoos). In captivity they cant express and release that amount of energy. Does it mean they dont have that energy? Nope, because they sure do! But in our human homes, we need to allow them to express their energy levels and to release so that they are a calmer happier bird. So I understand this, and I let my birds let loose. They scream (happily, nothing annoying like), flap their wings, fly, wrestle each other, normal things people would consider as being unruly. Normal bird things.

The reason why I reinforce this "negative behavior" is because they are going to want to scream and fly, no matter what, even if I yelled at them and threatened them with human conception of punishment. They will still want to do it. So for the past almost 4 years, since I have had cockatoos and other large parrots, I have been reinforcing NIGHT TIME "naughty" behaviors. So I, and the rest of the household, only have to be annoyed or upset with ONLY 1 hr of screaming, excessive fly time, etc. Its only one hr a day. I personally find it quite exhilarating.

And so I incorporated our human activity time (dinner, music, kids running around and acting crazy) at 6pm (6pm the time my birds want to have some fun). The kids just ate dinner and they are pumped with energy. On bad days, they cant go outside because of the climate we live in, its too wet. So they can be a bit hyper indoors for an hour, at night after dinner. Either blasting music, playing videos games obnoxiously loud, arguing, etc. And this is a great time for my birds to also let loose, be non-quiet, excessive flying and playing, etc.

After an hour, it basically stops. It has been the routine for the past almost 4 years (4 years this November).

Not only do birds have excessive energy levels in captivity, and not able to express and release that energy. Bird behavioral problems happen when they go through hormones. And they have even MORE energy than a regular bird. Hormonal parrots will misbehave in most households. These birds cannot release as much energy as they would in the wild. And they still have soo much of it. Most people feed starchy foods (corn, breads, etc) and feed a diet high in sugar and corn products (many pellets are too high in sugar and corn) which pumps our birds up with so much energy. Thats like a kid on sugar-high and not able to release that energy. Your going to have problems on your hands. But no matter what you feed, your bird needs to still be able to release that energy. And since your birds cant fly, screaming and excessive flapping and having a good time at it, helps release that energy.

These aren't unruly behaviors. And these behaviors can be trained and modified to fit into your life style(like screaming is only 1 hr a day for us, and we have one of the loudest birds on earth, and we have a flock of them). Sure these birds should be in the wild, but they live in our homes. However we need to make room in our lives to accommodate who they really are.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

AS for the bird being in control, no one here seems to want to change negative behavior, all we hear is it is in their nature....That doesn't keep them in a good loving home, other wise there would not be so many re homed birds.

Every day I see posts of people thanking the forum and the people on it for providing them with information. This forum has helped many people keep their birds who they were thinking of rehoming because of the information they received here. So, it's not the information being given, it is whether or not someone really wants to hear it.

For the record, I change animals negative behavior for a living. No one said that we shouldn't ever change their behavior but we did talk about what behavior can and should be changed and what behavior is natural and should be accepted by parrot owners. And, recommended changing behavior by ways of positive reinforcement and not forceful or punishment based methods.

Of my 21 birds, 12 were rescues. Of my current 9 dogs, 3 of them were rescues. Many of my animals have come here with behavioral issues and their behavior has been modified by using positive reinforcement and no punishment. For me, it's not all about control it's about building a cooperative relationship with my animals and making sure that their needs are being met. You talk about control, and being in charge and the leader and those things are not in my vocabulary regardless of the species I am working with. You get much further in the relationship (not just in what you want, but in the relationship with the animal) when you take into consideration what is good for them and what they want as well.

You weren't attacked, but I think you insulted people when you started this thread by saying that people on this forum let their birds be in control and allow their cockatoos to scream loudly twice a day. And, we simply said, of course people with cockatoos allow their birds to scream loudly twice a day because that is what birds do. A cockatoo screaming loudly twice a day is normal and labeling that as "negative behavior" and wanting to change it is not doing the bird any favors or allowing him to be who he is in my opinion.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

.It is one thing to give advice, it is another to make it out that using a water bottle to get Sid's attention is cruel. Sorry isn't! In one of the cases it didn't even hit him, just caught his attention. Mountains out of mole hills!

Many of us believe strongly in positive reinforcement and feel strongly that positive punishment has no place in animal training. If that water bottle changed Sid's behavior in two trials, believe me, it was pretty aversive to him. You can sugar coat it all you like, but it doesn't change what it was, it was positive punishment.

 

[myakando]

Good thread. As for our birds, yes, they do scream at times and can become quite loud. They're not nearly as predictable in the morning as they are in the evening. We loooove it when they scream! In all honesty, I'd probably like it if they'd scream more but they don't. Whenever the time comes that we can no longer care for them because of our age/health issues....etc. down the road (many years away hopefully), they will go to The Gabriel Foundation.

 

[Sophie's Mama]

Good thread. As for our birds, yes, they do scream at times and can become quite loud. They're not nearly as predictable in the morning as they are in the evening. We loooove it when they scream! In all honesty, I'd probably like it if they'd scream more but they don't. Whenever the time comes that we can no longer care for them because of our age/health issues....etc. down the road (many years away hopefully), they will go to The Gabriel Foundation.

I looked into them and found them to be a wonderful organization! Lucky birds. My birds will be divided up between family members. they live with us as family and everyone here chose for them to remain family.

 

[Sophie's Mama]

This is an appropriate thread we are responding to the original post.

The origional thread was Re: What will you do when you are gone...this is way off thread.

 

[Birdiemarie]

Do you really mean that? As long as it works and they are quiet what is motivating their obedience doesn't matter.....or did you use it as a figure of speech? I'm not debating you, just find that an interesting point and know it is said sometimes as a tongue-in-cheek statement.

..."Whatever works"... was a way of blowing you all off...

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

 

[Birdiemarie]

The origional thread was Re: What will you do when you are gone...this is way off thread.

This thread very quickly veered off into a very interesting thread on behavior techniques the result being a sharing of various ideas by different members so it is appropriate and not off topic. I have deleted the inappropriate posts and will allow it to continue.

 

[AngelGoffin]

Sadly, I have two birds that were "punished" by water bottles in previous homes, when they see them they cower, makes me so sad They do the same with brooms

Angel too but hang in there, it's getting better all the time! The other day she was sitting on the kitchen window sill and I swept the entire floor and she didn't blink! Also she's at about 70/30 when she sees a water bottle (or any kind of spray bottle actually). 70% of the time it no longer bothers her. She is learning that I just don't do that to her.

 

[jmfleish]

Hmmm....this is a very thought provoking thread. I've had birds for almost 8 years now and what I learned right from the start is that they are definitely nothing like dogs or cats. How you train cats and dogs and what you expect of cats and dogs you definitely cannot apply to parrots...throw that all right out the window. Parrots are the most self absorbed animals I have ever met and that's not a negative thing, it's just an observation. When you train a parrot, you can't expect them to understand the word "No" or to react to negative stimulus like a spray of water. These things will back fire on you in every instance. You will either scare them to death and you will get submissiveness for the wrong reasons or you will encourage the behavior because they like your punishment. Either way, you are losing.

The only way to truly get a parrot to work with you and not break its will so that you can let its personality shine (which is why we do want to share our lives with them) is through positive reinforcement and by understanding how they work. They do bite and they always bite for a reason. The answer to this problem isn't to yell at them and tell them no, it's to understand why they are biting. There is a reason for their biting, in every single instance, there is a reason and if you don't understand that, you are never going to understand your parrot.

This silly stuff about "I rescued these birds" is just that too, it's silly. So what, so you got the bird from a rescue. I worked closely with a rescue for two years and in all that time, with almost 300 birds coming in the door, only one bird was what I would truly call a rescue. What is a rescue? A rescue is a bird who will die if you don't do something right that instant to help that bird. It isn't about a dirty cage or bad food, it's about immediate need of help because of possible death or true bodily harm. We use the word "rescue" far too much and abuse the word. Most birds move from home to home or find themselves in shelters simply because they are in need of a new home, not because they were physically abused. I will grant you that birds in shelters may be more stressed out and may come across as more "aggressive" but once out of that situation with a little bit of work and some understanding, they can come out of that "aggressive" stage fairly easily.

Bottom line is, you have to realize that your parrot is not your dog or your cat and you can't treat it like that. You have to accept your parrot for what it is, a wild animal. You are not in control of your parrot, you live with your parrot, your parrot is your companion, not your pet.

 

[Karen]

Sadly, I have two birds that were "punished" by water bottles in previous homes, when they see them they cower, makes me so sad They do the same with brooms

Such a shame. I can't help but tear up when I read about any parrot being punished by an aversive method.

I try to only use positive reinforcement and never would I use an aversive punishment. One of my GW's bites himself and twists a beak full of feathers when he does something (lunges or bites) that in his past life he was punished for doing. It's the saddest thing you've ever seen. I talk softly to him and tell him I would never hurt him. I have had him 5 years...I don't think he's ever getting over whatever was done to him to make him turn on himself.

Both birds screamed when I picked up a broom when I first got them. I am VERY careful about doing so but I can use a broom around my birds now, because they trust me. I thought they had left that fear behind but when Kita had to be left at the vets office for the day they reported her being fearful of the broom when the tech was sweeping up the area. So sad to realize they never get over this.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Such a shame. I can't help but tear up when I read about any parrot being punished by an aversive method.

I try to only use positive reinforcement and never would I use an aversive punishment. One of my GW's bites himself and twists a beak full of feathers when he does something (lunges or bites) that in his past life he was punished for doing. It's the saddest thing you've ever seen. I talk softly to him and tell him I would never hurt him. I have had him 5 years...I don't think he's ever getting over whatever was done to him to make him turn on himself.

Both birds screamed when I picked up a broom when I first got them. I am VERY careful about doing so but I can use a broom around my birds now, because they trust me. I thought they had left that fear behind but when Kita had to be left at the vets office for the day they reported her being fearful of the broom when the tech was sweeping up the area. So sad to realize they never get over this.

Oh, that is so sad. I can see why that would be hard for you to watch. I think with time and probably some classical conditioning (somehow having high value food appear when the broom appears) they might get much more comfortable with it.

It's so sad and this is why I get frustrated when people talk about and recommend punishment and aversives whether they are talking about a bird or a dog or whatever like it's no big deal. It is a big deal to a lot of animals. I realize that people sometimes feel like "it works" but for me, "working" means that the animal is always safe, comfortable and confident. I think it's very sad that some people just want the animal to "stop" doing whatever they (the human) doesn't like and at all costs regardless of what it does to the animals. That's not humane care at all.