Pedigrees for breeding birds?

[Chantilly Lace]

I was just thinking about this...

We breed chinchillas and it is really important to get a good, healthy breeding stock. We have pedigrees for our breeders, so we know what is in their background, if there are any mutations, etc. There are chinchilla shows, so chinchillas get graded basically by fur quality. You want the best of the best for breeding, to ensure healthy, high quality babies and to make sure there is no inbreeding.

Now, is there anything like that for birds? Or do breeders just buy two birds of the opposite sex and put them together? How do you prevent inbreeding and accidental hybrids because you didn't know the full background of the bird? Is there even such a thing as a bird pedigree? I am just really curious about this...thanks!

 

[Hankmacaw]

Presently, there is no such thing as a parrot pedigree (maybe the commercial breeders have some way of keeping track among them selves). It is something I would hate to see started for the reason that pedigrees not only help to stop the breeding errors you mentioned, but the also CREATE a snob appeal. I'm afraid that would lead to selective breeding for particular characteristic i.e. large heads and beaks in GW, long tails in Scarlets ..........

I was involved with quarter horses for much of my life, both racing and show and was always uneasy about how the were bred. An example - I was given a colt because it didn't have spots, but the colt's sire was Jet Deck and the dam was a double bred Three Bars pinto. That's a lot of inbreeding and there are examples of worse.

I would just hate to see the bird world go that route - but it may when people start considering them more as a ego booster than as the excellent companions they are.

 

[Chantilly Lace]

Presently, there is no such thing as a parrot pedigree (maybe the commercial breeders have some way of keeping track among them selves). It is something I would hate to see started for the reason that pedigrees not only help to stop the breeding errors you mentioned, but the also CREATE a snob appeal. I'm afraid that would lead to selective breeding for particular characteristic i.e. large heads and beaks in GW, long tails in Scarlets ..........

I was involved with quarter horses for much of my life, both racing and show and was always uneasy about how the were bred. An example - I was given a colt because it didn't have spots, but the colt's sire was Jet Deck and the dam was a double bred Three Bars pinto. That's a lot of inbreeding and there are examples of worse.

I would just hate to see the bird world go that route - but it may when people start considering them more as a ego booster than as the excellent companions they are.

Wow, that is something I never thought about, very interesting Mary! That is EXACTLY what a lot of chinchilla breeders do, they want chinchillas with large, short flat heads, not pointy heads.

 

[Monica]

If a species has a similar looking subspecies, there's a high chance that the birds are already hybrids... i.e. green cheek conures, mitred conures, senegals, who knows how many amazons...

It's kind of hard to start with pure stock, if all that's available to you might be hybrids, and no one realizes it... or no one realizes that the two birds in their possession are different subspecies.

 

[jmfleish]

There are stud books but they are poorly maintained since the avian world is a little paranoid and many breeders prefer that people don't know what birds or how many they have. Basically, if you're going to start breeding a particular species, you have to work with people you know. Many people just purchase already paired birds. It really depends on what you know and who you know...

 

[Mythreeiggys]

Pedigree = Lineage (in the bird world)

The only birds I've ever known to have a lineage chart is Crimson Bellie Conures. I'm sure with rarer species, charts are kept but it's likely we would ever see them because mostly they are bred and the babies are kept for future breeding. I know with CBC's, most (responsible) breeders won't buy a pair/single without a lineage. There were, I believe, only 8 pairs originally imported into the US so with them, it's pretty important to have their Lineages.

 

[penguin]

I know for cockatiels birds are known by the breeder's last name or aviary name, which tend to develop an identifying characteristic pretty much exclusive to the breeder. Cockatiels known as "Greeson Line" cockatiels tend to be larger. Phil Feret breeds for composition and line. There are other breeders known for other things, certain mutations, for instance.

 

[Verivus]

That's weird. I'm used to the dog world where everything purebred has a pedigree. How do bird breeders keep track of genetic diseases and such?

 

[henpecked]

When breeding birds like zons and macaws (that mate for life) , responsible breeders (like me) have a life long commitment to a pair of birds that will breed for maybe forty years. Are we casual about putting pairs together??? Would you be? Would you pair birds you no nothing about? or would you buy the best babies you could find and raise them for 10 years before having a chance to start realizing any income? large parrots are very different from other pet breeding operations. You have so much time,work,money and love invested in a pair, that quality of breeding stock means every thing. that's why "wild caught" are so popular. Buying stock (babies) from unknown source and possible hybrids is such a risk .(and the reason we are breeding 2nd generation of our own birds ) Usually good,pure breeder babies are way more costly than your average pet baby. yes the market is flooded with cheap "hobby" breeders who casually put any two birds together and will destroy the gene pool of birds like the Panamas. But there are "purist" like me who care, That's one of the things you should look for when choosing a breeder.The last pair of DYHs i bought i researched completely and drove 2100 miles one way to buy them. Sorry for the rant.

 

[melissasparrots]

There are starting to be pedigrees for some smaller birds that are bred for mutation and that have actual standards to breed by. I've been to a few cockatiel breeder websites that show pedigrees for their birds. However, as someone pointed out, many times pedigreed birds are prettier and match an artificially created standard needed to win at a bird show. However, the larger size and line breeding needed to make birds that match the standard tends to also breed in other problems like shorter lifespan, egg laying problems etc. If it were just used to track genetic problems and match unrelated birds it wouldn't be so bad. But many times its used more to track color pattern and size without really looking at genetic history for things like cancer, feather cysts, etc that can be genetic.

 

[Verivus]

Well people breed for things like color regardless of whether or not a bird has a pedigree. At least with a pedigree the good breeders can weed out genetic problems. I remember on a popular species-specific list I am on someone was looking for a new home for their shy male bird. A bird breeder on the list, whom many people had recommended as a good and responsible breeder, offered to take the bird because he "needed a male breeder". That crossed that breeder off my list. No responsible dog breeder would take in a shy dog as breeding stock so why is that okay in the bird world?

 

[Stevo]

Well people breed for things like color regardless of whether or not a bird has a pedigree. At least with a pedigree the good breeders can weed out genetic problems. I remember on a popular species-specific list I am on someone was looking for a new home for their shy male bird. A bird breeder on the list, whom many people had recommended as a good and responsible breeder, offered to take the bird because he "needed a male breeder". That crossed that breeder off my list. No responsible dog breeder would take in a shy dog as breeding stock so why is that okay in the bird world?

What research has been done to prove that a shy bird passes on a particular "shy" gene to his progeny? What is wrong with a shy bird in any case - maybe it's of lesser value as pet bird (not sure why that would be the case??) but who's to say that's not going to actually be a better trait in an aviary context?

Pedigrees have come about from Human generated breeds - not species from the wild. They're proof of line breeding and assist in sorting out potential breed disorders. In order to start a 'Bird Pedigree' you would have to validate the birds history from the wild, and even in that case there's still no guarantee of a wild bird being 'pure' (hybridisation occurs naturally in the wild).......

It behoves any breeder to do their own research when looking for new stock - no piece of paper is going to make up for that. DNA profiling can help confirm species, but not much work has been done in that area to make it a readily accessible tool. I'm sure it will in the future. Zoos and some larger breeding organisations/facilities do indeed keep records and 'stud books' to provide some assurance of species, but it's unlikely to make it all the way to the 'backyard breeders'.

 

[Verivus]

I doubt there is any research in the birdy genome at the moment so no I don't think there is any evidence for or against shyness stemming from genetics in birds. However, I don't doubt that genetics play a factor and if there were research out there being done I'd bet it'd support my opinion. Studies of human genetics show that yes, shyness and other aspects of personality are something that is pre-determined by genetics. That doesn't mean they will be shy, there just will be a propensity that they will be. Nurture plays a part, but it can only go so far as nature (the genetics) allow. It's the same with dogs and I doubt it's different in birds.

The vast majority of bird breeders don't breed birds to re-introduce to an aviary or the wild. The vast majority breed birds for the pet market, including the breeder I mentioned. Expanding on my example, a shy bird (IMO) has a much higher chance of producing birds who have a higher propensity towards shyness. How is that going to be good for the bird or for it's owner(s)? It's a lose-lose situation for both. These birds are not in the wild. Many did not grow up in the wild. They are here trying to fit in to a domestic life because people want them to.

Obviously a piece of paper is not everything and to decide based on pedigree alone is beyond foolish, but it does play a part. I have no interest in bird breeding so I don't know and don't really care to think about how pedigrees would be introduced, but I'm betting it's not as impossible as you make it sound. Where do you think dogs came from? They didn't spring up from the dirt. All dogs were mutts at one point if you go back far enough. And if you want to go farther back they all come from the wild.

 

[karen256]

There are studbooks for some of the rarer species (or at least species that are rare as pets). The crimson belly conures mentioned are a good example. Crimson bellies are not rare in the wild but only 50 or so were ever brought to the US - so the studbook is necessary to prevent inbreeding.

As for show standards, the more domesticated parrots (budgies, lovebirds, cockatiels) ARE bred to specific show standards and pedigrees are usually kept for show birds - but other species are judged on the basis of simply being a good representative of their species and looking like a strong, healthy wild bird in build (not necessarily in color). Inbreeding may occur in breeding rare colors, and some rare color mutations can be very valuable. However, this is simply due to some buyers preferring rare birds. Shows tend to place more much emphasis on a bird's build and condition than on its color which would tend to discourage much inbreeding.

 

[karen256]

Oh and behavior is very likely strongly genetic. I don't know of any research in birds specifically, but there have been famous domestication experiments with foxes and rats. In one they worked with wild rats - which are normally shy and frightened of people. Breeding for tameness to humans and aggression to humans, in as little as 7 generations, they had 2 very different groups of rats. One group were vicious and would hurl themselves against the cages screaming trying to bite people, but the other group were extremely sweet and affectionate. Same thing with foxes - it took surprisingly few generations to breed foxes as tame and friendly as dogs.
They also found that as they bred them based only on temperament, the animals began to lose their wild type coloration and developed spots or pied type colorings.
'Domesticated' behavior seemed to be largely due to lower levels of some hormones like adrenaline I think. This also affected the coloring.

Anyway, it seems reasonable that behavior is also strongly influenced by genetics in birds. Of course, a lot of birds' behavior is learned - like a naturally nice bird becoming aggressive due to mistreatment. But still, I think an effort should be made to not breed aggressive birds. Domestic dogs don't bite much because a dog is potentially very dangerous and dogs that bit were usually put down or at least never bred. But in the case of parrots it seems all too often, an aggressive bird is seen as only suitable for breeding since it doesn't make a good pet, which is very unfortunate.

 

[Callista15]

I don't know about parrots, but I keep Serama bantams, and I do keep pedigrees on them. However, most Serama people don't bother, and so out of my foundation stock, one female is out of unknown bloodlines(she'd been sold multiple times so no clue where she came from), one female I know her bloodline but not her parentage, and my male I know his bloodline and his sire, but nothing about his mother. However, I am very careful about keeping track, as Seramas tend to have issues with low fertility, and the ever present "Shrinking gene".

 

[jmfleish]

I don't know about parrots, but I keep Serama bantams, and I do keep pedigrees on them. However, most Serama people don't bother, and so out of my foundation stock, one female is out of unknown bloodlines(she'd been sold multiple times so no clue where she came from), one female I know her bloodline but not her parentage, and my male I know his bloodline and his sire, but nothing about his mother. However, I am very careful about keeping track, as Seramas tend to have issues with low fertility, and the ever present "Shrinking gene".

YAY! A Serama keeper! We have a 7 month old male Serama Silkie. He's a baby doll when he isn't creating chaos or running after the parrots! LOL! As for parrots, there are stud books but parrot people are kind of a strange breed and a lot of people don't like to advertise what they have, so most of those books go unrecorded unless you're talking about a very rare species and then sometimes people will keep track of where their pairs have come from...it's a muddy business.

 

[Callista15]

Oh cool! I didn't know there was anyone else into Seramas on here! Nice to see that there is! I have a serama boy around the same age. He's a sweetie. I have two of his eggs peeping in the incubator, waiting to hatch this weekend.