New flighted bird, new name, & the Tent

[triciakoontz]

Name change!! If you saw my first post, I was planning on naming my little parrotlet Zippity Zoombah (we always give our pets two names in my family). Because he went crazy flying everywhere whenever his cage door opened. Like a jet plane on steroids! Lol! Well, things have changed dramatically in the five days since he’s been here and the name just didn’t fit nor was it easy to say. His permanent name is now Jolly Wingo. Because he is a jolly confident CUTE guy who also loves to fly!!



Today was a stellar morning! Jolly flew straight to my finger when his cage door was opened!! Super cool. Let me give him scritches. Ate chop and seeds out of my hand. Chattered to me. Oh my daze, I’m in love!

I’ve been bonding with Jolly inside a little $20 beach tent I bought and draped with garden netting over the wide open side. I’m doing this because the first day when Jolly was home and I let him out in a small bedroom, he spent a solid hour flying around and I had to pretty much grab him and hold him against his will to get him back into the cage. I absolutely hated that. I wish I had taken a picture of the haircutting scissors that I had gone and gotten and laid on the table beside his cage. I was so determined that he was not going to have to be forced again. But I also was sick, literally disgusted at the thought of clipping his wings and I just couldn’t do it.

So I asked myself the important training question. How can I set up the training environment where this little bird can be allowed to fly but there’s also a high chance of success with the bonding training? I thought about the bathroom but it actually has dangers in there for a little bird learning to fly. Falling on the hard edge of the tub or the tile floor or the sink would dangerous. So I’m thinking thinking thinking about how to reduce the size of the environment when he comes out of that cage. That’s when I thought of a tent. The very next morning I happen to be in a thrift store and they were selling new beach tents for $20. I got one!



The tent has been a perfect training solution! Jolly can come out of his cage and fly around a little bit, learning to hang onto the sides of the tent, to turn, to land on the bed and on land on the perch on top of his cage. Yesterday for the first time he landed on my finger! I rewarded him with both formula and nibbles off a millet spray. Today he showed huge progress, showing that he’s fully accepted me. He purposely flew out of the cage straight to my finger. Lots of food and scritches for reward!

Next step, probably tomorrow, will be to open the cage outside of in the small bedroom. I know he’ll fly around a lot but believe he will also fly to me for the handful of breakfast I’ll have. I’ll repeat training in the tent multiple times today to get him prepared for wider spaces. And help him firm up the important concept that being with me is not threatening and is very rewarding.

By Monday I’ll start more formal clicker training. First, I needed that connection with him. I needed him to feel safe and that he always has a choice to fly away. Reducing the size of his “universe” was very successful in both supporting him at his stage of development and achieving my goals. I’m so excited! He likes me!

 

[Mizzely]

I'm not a fan of the tent as it seems to mean like glorified flooding, but I'm glad it's working for you!

 

[Lady Jane]

I'm not a fan of the tent as it seems to mean like glorified flooding

Ditto

 

[triciakoontz]

I'm not a fan of the tent as it seems to mean like glorified flooding, but I'm glad it's working for you!

Huh?? It’s just a room. A small room. I lie in there and he chooses whether or no to come to me. He can stay on the perch at the top of the tent or the perch on top of his cage or fly or come over to me. He has spent a lot of time in the places that are not me. He’s not scared of me. He’s been coming over to to get formula since I got him home.

I open the cage door and the rest of the choices are his. About as far from flooding as you can get. What in the world made you think it was flooding??

 

[Zara]

How can I set up the training environment where this little bird can be allowed to fly but there’s also a high chance of success with the bonding training?

If you think your room is too big, you could have halved the room size with a tension rod and a light curtain. This would have still allowed your bird to choose of his own accord, while creating a smaller more managable space for you to both be in.

I open the cage door and the rest of the choices are his. About as far from flooding as you can get. What in the world made you think it was flooding??

He has two choices, sit on the cage or on you. It´s not enough. They should have more choices than that. There´s no wall perches in the tent.

He’s not scared of me. He’s been coming over to to get formula since I got him home.

I´m not sure why you needed to trap him in a tent then if he wasn´t afraid of you and is coming for feeds? With this you should be able to work with him in the room.
Remember you can still interact with him while he´s in his cage too.
To get him back in the cage, he will return there when hungry or thirsty as long as he has access (the door is left open for him), you just need to wait for him to go back in. Be sure to give a treat before closing the door.
It´s a good idea to remove out of cage foods a short while before you will want him back in his cage.

 

[Mizzely]

Sorry I must have misunderstood as it seemed like a scary experience to be in an enclosed space with a giant creature with no other option

 

[triciakoontz]

I’ll post my edited response below, Ran out of time because I got a call. This is a good training debate but I strongly feel I did the right thing to avoid 100% EVER having to catch him to put him back in the cage. Now, THAT is flooding and I refuse to do it unless it’s an emergency. One catch voids all the choices he made to come to me before that. I’ll go slowly with the small space until I know he’ll come to me and stay on my hand by choice until he goes back in the cage on my hand. Or will lure in the cage.

______________________________



Huh?? It’s just a room. A small room. I lie in there and he chooses whether or no to come to me. He can stay in the cage, on the door of the cage, on the perch at the top of the tent, on the rope hanging across the tent, on the perch on top of his cage, or fly around (which he does a lot), or come over to me. He has spent a lot of time in the places that are not me. He’s not scared of me. He’s been coming over to to get formula, strictly by his own choice, since I got him home. I merely shrunk the size of his universe when he’s out loose. That’s good training: provide a calm supportive setting that allows the animal to choose, allows the animal the possibility to be successful at something new.

I open the cage door and the rest of the choices are his. About as far from flooding as you can get. What in the world made you think it was flooding?? Flooding involves a deliberate forced massive release of adrenaline and does not give the animal true freedom of choice. They only have one choice in flooding - do what the flooded wants or be in dire physical threat; everything else, all other choices, are really bad or really scary.

I’m completely shocked that not one, but several people define setting up a smaller physical space as flooding. By the way, we often do this in the veterinary world, create a much smaller SAFE and perceptively species-appropriate resting space for an animal. This really works to calm when dogs or horses or other animals are freaking out and we want to bring down the adrenaline release.

In the case of a parrot who is frightened, frantically flying back-and-forth in fear across a big room allows a huge amount of adrenaline buildup. Acclimate the parrot to an appropriate much smaller space (use limbs, ropes, high perches, etc.) and then begin to allow the bird out in the smaller space with preferred food in several places. Then introduce a human to the area gradually. Just what I did. It went really fast with Jolly because he’s not afraid of humans and was highly motivated to get the formula those first few days.

Thanks for bringing up your concerns. I never would have realized anyone thought that. I’d challenge you to this question: In a half room with a sheet across (I have 12’ ceilings), exactly how would you get the bird into a much lower than overhead light/curtainrod/shelves cage when they needed to be safely in their cage overnight? Without adrenaline release??

 

[triciakoontz]

I´m not sure why you needed to trap him in a tent then if he wasn´t afraid of you and is coming for feeds? With this you should be able to work with him in the room.
Remember you can still interact with him while he´s in his cage too.
To get him back in the cage, he will return there when hungry or thirsty as long as he has access (the door is left open for him), you just need to wait for him to go back in. Be sure to give a treat before closing the door.
It´s a good idea to remove out of cage foods a short while before you will want him back in his cage.

Perhaps you haven’t worked with a fledgling? They burst from the nest with an explosion of energy and fly wildly to the first place they can land. And that burst is literally straight up. Survival instinct. That’s exactly how the breeder lost my first bird. He wiggled out of his hand and burst straight up 60’ in a pine tree. Very first flight. I’ve just had a clutch of 4 cardinals fledging all around my back yard and it’s crazy to watch their uncontrolled boomerang flights. I was not about to let Jolly crash around even a half room and land on hardwood flooring from 12’ up or fall behind the bed frame, etc. They are so extremely tiny. I fostered a clutch of 3 Linnies and lost one when he fell behind a bed and hit the iron railing.

The tent is a safe first step. He got out today in the room and can navigate really good from learning his turn around maneuvering and hovers and cling-on’s over 5 days in the tent. Would use a tent again in a heartbeat, just sizing up for a larger bird. Of course you don’t need it for larger birds, Amazon’s up, as not nearly as much danger of them getting trapped behind things, etc.

 

[The_Mayor]

So, I probably know the least about what you all are talking about, but my experience feels like it might be relevant.

When I got my parakeets I knew there was no way I could reasonably make my apt bird safe. Just too much stuff, too many things to get under, behind, or caught on. So, what I did was build an "encounter zone" (yes, I use the quotes every time I think about it) with PVC and appropriate-sized netting. Took a little trial and error to find the size/consistency that worked, but eventually I did. It was set up around their cage, about 6'x8'x6', and completely closed off so I didn't have to worry (much) about them getting loose in my apt.

Since we weren't anywhere close to hand-tame, much less coming when called, I only let them out when I knew I could stay in my apt until they went back into their cage on their own. I made sure their food and water stayed in the cage, so I knew sooner or later they would go back in.

To me, it felt like a good compromise. I could sit in there with them and they could get used to my presence and eventually get up their courage to eat millet out of my hand (as long as I stayed completely still) or not, if they didn't want to. I set it up with ropes and perches and put paper on the top of their cage so they could use that as a running-around track (tiny little dinosours make adorable foot steps running up and down on a sheet of newsprint.) They didn't have a huge amount of room to fly, but it was enough for them to stretch their wings outside their cage. And, it was enough room that I felt like we were together, without me intruding into their personal space.

Anyway, I found it mostly worked for my interest which was letting them out of their cage to interact with me on their own terms. I think there was really only one time when we really ended up in a battle of wills about them not going into their cage and even then I just dozed in my living room until I heard them sneaking into their cage at which point I leapt un and closed the door behind them.

There may have been cackling.

But, while it wasn't a great night for me, I felt like it ended okay.

 

[Shezbug]

I agree with Mizzely and Zara. I find the use of a tent that size a bit disturbing to be honest.
I also feel it’s flooding regardless of the cutesy name you give the tent. The birds choices are extremely limited in that weird environment it was put in.
People bond with birds all the time without taking away their freedom by trapping them or cutting wings.

 

[Mizzely]

I use bribery I've had untame birds and they land wherever and always return home. Like I said I must have misunderstood and I'm glad it's working for you. Just not for me!

 

[triciakoontz]

@Zara said, “He has two choices, sit on the cage or on you. It´s not enough. They should have more choices than that. There´s no wall perches in the tent.”

Not correct. Hanging rope. Rope pinned across the top. Two perches higher than me. The whole thing was dismantled before I saw these concerns or I’d show you a photo.

“I´m not sure why you needed to trap him in a tent then if he wasn´t afraid of you and is coming for feeds? With this you should be able to work with him in the room.
Remember you can still interact with him while he´s in his cage too.
To get him back in the cage, he will return there when hungry or thirsty as long as he has access (the door is left open for him), you just need to wait for him to go back in.”

Again, I don’t think you have worked with fledglings. They do NOT ever go back to their nest. A 4” fledgling parrotlet in say 1200 cubic feet of space (if I could reduce the room to 10x10x12) would literally never go back into the cage. That’s a huge area for a tiny parrotlet. And likely very frightening. He wouldn’t know how to get back down to the cage. Nor does would he have a survival instinct to do so. Saying this will happen is simply bad advice.

With all due respect, those kinds of statements are why people let birds out and then have to force capture them, causing great damage to a beginning relationship. Breaking down the training of the bird into tiny successful steps is the whole point of what I did. There was no flooding. There was no dangerous flying. He easily learned to go back to his cage because he was only 18” above it, not 8’ above it. He learned to fly to my finger for millet. I just stood on a stool a few minutes ago and he stepped over from the high hanging perch to my hand for millet. Because he learned that in a small safe happy setting with no panic whatsoever.

Also, this statement, “You can work with him in his cage.” Of course you can. However, the longer an animal stays in a cage, the more severe the cage-bound phenomenon becomes. It happens super fast, the cage bound phenomenon, especially with a frightening change of setting, such as when a bird is sold to a new owner. It literally can happen in a couple of days if you just leave that bird in the cage. Again, a small space for freedom and exploration outside the cage was perfect.

Have a new horse? You don’t keep him stalled up for long but you also might not let him out in a big pasture if there’s any question of how you will get him back in the stall. Small turnout. With boarded cats at the clinic we had a 4 stage progression from the crate they came in to being able to go outside in the big cat run. It created confidence and a sense of power over their environment to take it in stages instead of freaking them out by releasing them in a big space.
This progression is used all the time in zoos.

 

[triciakoontz]

I’ll take this over to my training friends. Not going to defend here any more. Many of you are making completely untrue assumptions based on no facts. Wish I could just delete the whole thread. Always challenging to bring up new training ideas in an establishment setting. Although, oh yeah, it’s a really well proven idea in vet and zoo management…

 

[triciakoontz]

So, I probably know the least about what you all are talking about, but my experience feels like it might be relevant.

When I got my parakeets I knew there was no way I could reasonably make my apt bird safe. Just too much stuff, too many things to get under, behind, or caught on. So, what I did was build an "encounter zone" (yes, I use the quotes every time I think about it) with PVC and appropriate-sized netting. Took a little trial and error to find the size/consistency that worked, but eventually I did. It was set up around their cage, about 6'x8'x6', and completely closed off so I didn't have to worry (much) about them getting loose in my apt.

Since we weren't anywhere close to hand-tame, much less coming when called, I only let them out when I knew I could stay in my apt until they went back into their cage on their own. I made sure their food and water stayed in the cage, so I knew sooner or later they would go back in.

To me, it felt like a good compromise. I could sit in there with them and they could get used to my presence and eventually get up their courage to eat millet out of my hand (as long as I stayed completely still) or not, if they didn't want to. I set it up with ropes and perches and put paper on the top of their cage so they could use that as a running-around track (tiny little dinosours make adorable foot steps running up and down on a sheet of newsprint.) They didn't have a huge amount of room to fly, but it was enough for them to stretch their wings outside their cage. And, it was enough room that I felt like we were together, without me intruding into their personal space.

Anyway, I found it mostly worked for my interest which was letting them out of their cage to interact with me on their own terms. I think there was really only one time when we really ended up in a battle of wills about them not going into their cage and even then I just dozed in my living room until I heard them sneaking into their cage at which point I leapt un and closed the door behind them.

There may have been cackling.

But, while it wasn't a great night for me, I felt like it ended okay.

That was a great great idea! The tent everyone is freaking out about is 5.5’x5’x4.5’ high. I sat in a chair outside of it the first two times, just talking to him. Feeding millet through the crack in the netting. And so forth. I’m really good at baby steps and you sure were too! I’m also lucky Jolly’s very people acclimated. But had never been loose outside a tiny cage except being held in the breeders hand. I kind of flipped at the way the breeder tried to teach me how to hold him for feeding.

 

[saroj12]

I’ll take this over to my training friends. Not going to defend here any more. Many of you are making completely untrue assumptions based on no facts. Wish I could just delete the whole thread. Always challenging to bring up new training ideas in an establishment setting. Although, oh yeah, it’s a really well proven idea in vet and zoo management…

Don’t leave. It’s not well known on AA yet that you’re a certified animal trainer and know what you’re talking about.

 

[The_Mayor]

Have a new horse? You don’t keep him stalled up for long but you also might not let him out in a big pasture if there’s any question of how you will get him back in the stall. Small turnout.

Heh! Not to derail this thread, but you've reminded me of my sister's horse who was pretty much uncatchable - so much so that he was the exception to the barn rule that horses didn't get turned out wearing a halter.

Since we knew him and knew he was fine going out with the other horses (although, very bossy), people learned "don't bother trying to catch the big bay. Just bring the other horses in and when he sees that everyone else is heading to the barn he'll come galloping up so he doesn't get left behind." My horse, by contrast, was highly food-motivated, so he'd not only come trotting over to the fence to see me, but he'd stand by the fence so I could get a leg over cause he knew the bulge in my pockets was crunchy, delicious molasses treats.

 

[Sodapop&Co.]

Have a new horse? You don’t keep him stalled up for long but you also might not let him out in a big pasture if there’s any question of how you will get him back in the stall. Small turnout.

Please don't feel so attacked. I'm not highly experienced or a certified trainer, but I can at least speak to the horse example. IMO, no - what you do is build a relationship with the horse, and show the horse that it can trust you - all of that while in their pasture with their buddies and food available where it has all the room to choose whether or not it wants to be with you. From one possible perspective, any other method would be a "cheat" at best. Now the way you spelled out can work fine too, and for some people perhaps that's the only way they can do it. I find many horse people can't and don't know their horse on a personal, emotional level. Sad but fine; different people have different goals. Most people on this forum have friendship, trust, love, happiness as their general or only goal. Sometimes training as a means to get to that goal, rarely as the main focus. There is simply a difference in mindsets, and that's fine and good. This method seems to have worked fine with your Jolly. Good! But I'd caution against expecting too much from your bird now. And I'd be open to the idea that birds think and work in a very different way from most domesticated animals; in fact I'd say a relationship with a bird is more like a relationship with a human, than with a dog. Training vs Relationship. We all have our own balance that works for us.
We're all doing the best we can for our birds (or any animals) with the knowledge and experience that we have, and everyone on this thread wants only the best for any bird.

 

[Mizzely]

Certified or not, there are always two ways to do things. There are many dog trainers I don't agree with their tactics either. Same with sleep trainers for babies... Or really any other "certified" anything.

Doesn't mean their methods don't work. Just that they don't align with my own beliefs or way of doing things.

 

[Shezbug]

If trapping a bird in a tent to train it is what certified avian trainers do then I seriously don’t ever want one near my birds!
I’m guessing the certified training certificate mentioned here is not in the avian or equine field.
Each to ones own I guess but there is a well known certified dog trainer in my area who still teaches and honestly believes that certain breeds of dogs can lock their jaws shut so I don’t feel that all trainers are above the rest of us or always correct regarding their knowledge and treatment of animals. Even if the dog trainer I mentioned didn’t have weird outdated beliefs (more than what I mentioned here) I don’t like the way she chooses to do things- her methods would cause my dog to cower so she would not be a good fit for me and my dog.
The horse training comment was just as odd to me as the tent idea and is the total opposite of the experiences I‘ve had.
There are many different ways to get similar results- not all of them should be used or work well in every situation.
As I said earlier… each to ones own.

 

[MiniMacaw]

Many here have training, raising or medical experience, we just don’t go around talking about it all the time. I’m a CVT, I work with working dogs (Malinois) and my husband works with working horses. Many members here have done so too, and many have certainly raised fledglings but are too nice to say anything.

The biggest danger to any professional is believing you know it all/best and only seeking advice from the likeminded. It’s not an attack to hear other opinions and recommendations/methods. We can all make our own educated opinions and do what’s right for us. But coming from a humble place lets us learn and continue to grow in our professions or passions. The cumulative knowledge of parrot owners on this forum can’t be discounted because some people don’t have a piece of paper with their name on it.
When I was still working in the clinics I remember every new hire was so worried that the licensed CVTs would look down on them even though they’d be hired for the same job. But every person brings a new valuable perspective and their own experience. If I said to everyone I didn’t agree with that I’ll go find a group of people I do agree with and only work with them, I wouldn’t have gained much knowledge at all. Especially in the world of parrots and companion birds as a whole, where everything changes all the time. They’re not comparable to dogs or horses training wise...though it was believed so a long time ago.