Infertile Eggs

[MorningGloria]

I'm assuming my question would go best in this section?

I have found a breeder that I very much like and have set up an appointment to view the nursery. They currently have available two species I am considering, but the other more rare bird on my list they have a breeding pair of, but they have been laying infertile eggs.

I'm not in any rush so if fertile eggs is something that could take months, even years that is no porblem. What I'm concerned about is how often this happens to good breeders? Is it rare to have a bonded pair that have produced fertile eggs in the past to suddenly stop, or is this just something that happens?

My other concern is will it effect the health of future clutches?

 

[Billie Faye]

You might want to talk to your CAV about this...it might take a scope to find out what is going on inside both birds....
Diet/sunshine/conditions of the birds over time....
A think a vet would be the first place to talk with and then see about other breeders of these types of birds and see what they have in the same age group and if they are having this problem also...
JMHO

 

[MorningGloria]

Thanks for your advice Billie. Unfortunately I don't know of any other breeders I could talk to, but I will try to talk to an avian vet.

The information I returned through google says that it is common, but then the reasons they list (age and sex) are not a factor for this pair.

 

[Bokkapooh]

It can be the diet they are on, not enough proper size and variety of sized perches(of size and texture), not enough enrichment, not big enough aviary/fligth cage, not old enough. Thos are the top things I think of when examining why birds are layijng infertile eggs. There is ALWAYS room for improvement, in some cases, more than others.

 

[Sarin]

Not to burst anyone's bubble but sometimes birds are just infertile.. Have they ever had a successful clutch?

 

[Bokkapooh]

I'd take them to an avian vet if you wanted to check actual fertility rate on them. But poor nutrition and improper cage and environment, is the number 1 cause for infertility. Long term poor nutrition and improper environment can lead to permanent infertility, just like in people.

 

[atvchick95]

I get several infertile eggs out of almost every one of my pairs

yes I've even had a female who only produced infertile eggs I put her with 3 different males all of whom just had babies with other females

I trimmed the vent feathers of her (it's known to help) and still nothing ever

it had nothing to do with Diet/cages........ but I think in her case it was age - I think she was older then I was told - but w/out a band I would never know

even my young (1-3 yr old) birds give me infertile eggs in the same clutch as fertile

sometimes the female makes the egg before the male mates and that egg will be infertile then they mate and the next one with fertile

I have a Pair of budgies on eggs right now She is with her mate for the 2nd time and this is her 3rd mate - she has her egg laying pattern down 1st clutch is always 6 eggs, with usually at least 3-4 hatching 2nd clutch has always been 9 eggs with at least 3-4 hatching

she is on 9 eggs right now

I have a lovebird pair who can't seem to raise more then 1 baby, she normally lays 4 eggs 2-3 hatch only one lives

a pair of tiels - has 4 eggs 3 hatch every time

so I think it is more to do with the bird itself they know what they can handle and can't handle (or at least I think they do)



I've never had any issues with any of the babies born here that i've bred when they got old enough they've all grown up to be big healthy birds

 

[MorningGloria]

Not to burst anyone's bubble but sometimes birds are just infertile.. Have they ever had a successful clutch?

Yes, they have in the past

I'd take them to an avian vet if you wanted to check actual fertility rate on them.

They are the breeding pair (would-be parents) of a type of bird I'm interested in, not my own birds.

But poor nutrition and improper cage and environment, is the number 1 cause for infertility. Long term poor nutrition and improper environment can lead to permanent infertility, just like in people.

That's why I was concerned. In people sometimes it's genetic and sometimes like you said, it's environmental factors. I'll be going to visit in a few weeks so I will try to see for myself the conditions they are kept in.

 

[hsmoscout]

Are we not allowed to know what kind they are for any specific reason? Sorry, I'm nosy. I want to know!

 

[M.C Bird Rescue]

When dealing with breeding some birds just do stop breeding, no reason specified and then just restart again. Remembering that these are birds kept in cages and not birds in the wild, knowing what the actual time frame for each clutch produced a year, nothing is for certain. When we start dealing with the more exotic and less kept species less is known on actual breeding times, how many clutches, etc.
I have a friend I recommend highly she breeds crimson bellied conures, they had 1 clutch, then never produced again, her friend also has a pair of them, same situation.
Is it the birds that are "ill producers" or is it just not time?
We take these birds, cage them, then say..HAVE EGGS! They make the choice to breed, we cannot make them .
I am sure in time, they will produce again...

Ok I have to know..what is the species!

 

[Sarin]

I, too, am curious as to what species these birds are!!

 

[MorningGloria]

Sorry guys! I didn't mean to keep you in suspense! I was avoiding mentioning the species because I didn't want it linked back to the breeder. I didn't think it was fair to suggest negligence without them having an opportunity to defend themselves (especially since otherwise they're great breeders) but that's probably just my paranoia talking. They're goldens.

When dealing with breeding some birds just do stop breeding, no reason specified and then just restart again. Remembering that these are birds kept in cages and not birds in the wild, knowing what the actual time frame for each clutch produced a year, nothing is for certain. When we start dealing with the more exotic and less kept species less is known on actual breeding times, how many clutches, etc.

I have a friend I recommend highly she breeds crimson bellied conures, they had 1 clutch, then never produced again, her friend also has a pair of them, same situation.
Is it the birds that are "ill producers" or is it just not time?
We take these birds, cage them, then say..HAVE EGGS! They make the choice to breed, we cannot make them .
I am sure in time, they will produce again...

Ok I have to know..what is the species!

Thanks for putting my mind at ease. Even if I wasn't able to get the golds, I would still be interested in buying another species from them. Some of the info that turned up in google searches brought out my worse fears. I got Archy from a pet store chain and wanted to do everything I could to make sure my next bird is from a very reputable source.

 

[srtiels]

Does the breeder have a vet? You might be able to inquire their vet as to a recommendation as to health.

If they do not have a vet are they doing flock treatments with the birds they have? I have found that sometimes the use of Doxy can cause shirt term infetility and/or long term or permanant.

Ask about lighting and caging. Many times if birds have not had access to sunlight or Vita lights, health problems can crop up such as obesity which can cut down on fertility...or reproductive problems such as peritonitus, soft shelled eggs, prolapse etc. with the hens. Any breeder hen should have a flat tight abdomen. If pouchy and exteneded it could mean a possible reproductive problem.

 

[Beatriz Cazeneuve]

Most breeders do not allow their birds to rest enough between clutches. If they even do follow the sun seasons (which most of them don't), they make the breeding one way too long so the birds become depleted and stop laying fertile eggs. I would not buy a bird from a breeder that has a lot of infertile eggs, it means the birds are not been kept as well as they can be. The breeders would never admit to it and claim that infertile eggs are normal but, in reality, if a pair is of an appropriate age, well rested, well fed, well exercised and the environment is stress free, you really don't get infertile eggs.

 

[vancha]

I am inclined to agree with Beatriz. I have personally never had an infertile egg from any of my "breeders"... But then again, of course, I bred them very rarely. If you let them do it naturally by their own decision, it seems to me they should be able to produce fertile eggs. I do believe that a lot of infertile eggs indicates a problem with the birds - either internally, meaning that health problems have rendered them infertile - or externally because of a simply poor environment. I would be very careful with this breeder and do a little "inspection" myself. Then again, looks can be deceiving.

 

[Jan]

I've never heard of a pair not ever producing infertile eggs, it does happen. There can be numerous reasons why they produce infertile eggs... age, maybe too young, too old is not usually the case unless extremely old age, diet can play a part in it, their health, some males can just have a low sperm count, often they may not get the mating thing done just right. It is correct that a pair should be taken in to be checked out for cause of infertility if it happens for probably more than 2 years or more in a row... then could be issues with either male or female or even both internally with the reproductive system.

My Pionus and Amazons only will breed through the months of April to July as a rule. We have a very short breeding season here at our high elevation and they are housed outside and weather/seasons play a huge part on their mating/breeding cycle. Birds who are housed in a enclosed enviroment stand more chance to mate/breed at almost any given time but they still have their own internal instinct of when mating is to be. In my books, people should not let their breeders produce more than 2 clutches per calendar year, it just is not could on them even if you give them ample calcium, and such. They need a break to replenish their system on their own time frame.

 

[Billie Faye]

I would also ? if they are on pellets high in soy products:
Felicity Lawrence: Soya is in 60% of all processed food. But should it carry a health warning? | Life and style | The Guardian
Consumer Health Articles: THE PLOY OF SOY
There are issues with soy/infertile eggs/male birds... human males also can develope this problem...
One of the reasons I don't feed pellets

 

[vancha]

That is very correct, Billie Faye. Soybeans contain phytoestrogens. However, taking a closer look, I am not sure whether this would affect birds in the same way. That said, I have heard tales abound of young birds molting into their adult feathers prior to reaching adulthood after being fed a soy-based hand-feeding diet, and claims about infertility because of soy. (I myself do feed pellets, and prefer soy-based hand-feeding formulas simply because I feel the benefits outweigh the odds, but what is another story).

However, I saw this:
"Soybeans contain isoflavones called genistein and daidzein, which are one source of phytoestrogens in the human diet. Because most naturally occurring estrogenic substances show weak activity, normal consumption of foods that contain these phytoestrogens should not provide sufficient amounts to elicit a physiological response in humans.

Plant lignans associated with high fiber foods such as cereal brans and beans are the principal precursor to mammalian lignans which have an ability to bind to human estrogen sites. Soybeans are a significant source of mammalian lignan precursor secoisolariciresinol containing 13–273 µg/100 g dry weight."

Taken from Wikipedia (Soy)

With that in mind, wouldn't that infer that other high fiber foods like other beans could have these affects? And I don't know whether a lot of research has been put into how these phytoestrogens affect birds. However, many bird owners feed a bean mix weekly - from the information present, I wouldn't be too quick to say soybeans are the only cause of such fertility issues if they do exist.

 

[Beatriz Cazeneuve]

That is very correct, Billie Faye. Soybeans contain phytoestrogens. However, taking a closer look, I am not sure whether this would affect birds in the same way. That said, I have heard tales abound of young birds molting into their adult feathers prior to reaching adulthood after being fed a soy-based hand-feeding diet, and claims about infertility because of soy. (I myself do feed pellets, and prefer soy-based hand-feeding formulas simply because I feel the benefits outweigh the odds, but what is another story).

However, I saw this:
"Soybeans contain isoflavones called genistein and daidzein, which are one source of phytoestrogens in the human diet. Because most naturally occurring estrogenic substances show weak activity, normal consumption of foods that contain these phytoestrogens should not provide sufficient amounts to elicit a physiological response in humans.

Plant lignans associated with high fiber foods such as cereal brans and beans are the principal precursor to mammalian lignans which have an ability to bind to human estrogen sites. Soybeans are a significant source of mammalian lignan precursor secoisolariciresinol containing 13–273 µg/100 g dry weight."

Taken from Wikipedia (Soy)

With that in mind, wouldn't that infer that other high fiber foods like other beans could have these affects? And I don't know whether a lot of research has been put into how these phytoestrogens affect birds. However, many bird owners feed a bean mix weekly - from the information present, I wouldn't be too quick to say soybeans are the only cause of such fertility issues if they do exist.

I don't feed anything made with soy to any of my animals (birds, dogs, cats). I don't like the fact that soy is so very poisonous in its natural state that farmers don't even need to treat their crops with insecticides because no insect would eat it. I don't like the fact that soy has both estrogenic and goitrogenic effects. And I don't like the fact that there are no long term studies done on feeding it to animals (or people for that matter).

The thing with estrogenic effects and sexual hormones is that they are tricky, tricky, tricky and things that one would think have one effect, have the opposite! Look at Lupron, for example, this is something that we give birds to stop them from producing sexual hormones but the reason why this works is because Lupron makes them produce so many that the body, sensing something is very, very wrong with this picture, shuts down the production altogether. And that's also the reason why Lupron doesn't work all the time or long-term (I also do not approve of using Lupron with birds).

 

[srtiels]

wouldn't that infer that other high fiber foods like other beans could have these affects?
-----------------------------------------------

A high fiber diet can deplete minerals in the diet. Minerals function as coenzymes. They enable the body to carry out virtually every biochemical reaction needed to sustain life. Like probiotics they are naturally occurring elements that come from soil, rock, water, animal and plant sources. There are 'bulk' minerals, which are needed in higher quantities, such as calcium, magnesium, potassium, phosphorus and sodium. 'Trace' minerals, which are needed in tiny/small amounts, include zinc, copper, iron, manganese, chromium, selenium, and iodine, to name a few. Many of these minerals are also used in the body for egg formation...thus the lacking of them could possibly lead to infertily in the hen.