He is RELENTLESS!

[Kenzie]

I am interested in the far future in free flight. I have many people I follow that do it and will most CERTAINLY take the Liberty Wings course to fulfill my dream and allow my Zon + BCC the freedom in flight they deserve. But first........ basic training. And oh my GOD!

Currently, my project is with my Blue Crown Conure. He is a DNA male named Poptart and coming up at around 2 years old now. I am speaking with a free flight mentor often about Poptart and attempting to work through our issues but second opinions would be cool.

For context, he is on a diet of Pssiticus (and sometimes Harrisons) pellet with veggies when I can. I will be upgrading everyone to breakfast chop everyday or every other day once I lock down a job and can afford to do this consistently.
We have just moved so all my previous progress has been blurred I am sure, but we have come to a stand still on our progress when I was doing consistent training. I am back at it now officially because we have successfully moved fully and can get back to normal routines.
I always remove food around 6-7 PM the night prior to do morning or mid-day training. He is... food motivated because he certainly isn't attention motivated. Poptart is pretty independent and LOVES to be with us in the same room and interact but touches are no his preferred.

She, my sort-of-mentor, had suggested that I do away with step up training and work on my recall. Poptart has been a total nightmare to train step up and recall- he DOES step up when he wants to. Otherwise he flies away. I don't have an issue getting him if needed like urgently or to get back to his cage- after about 2-3 fly offs he will ALWAYS step up. So thankfully he isn't totally unreliable in that department but getting a consistent step up was a challenge for sure. I have all of his favorite treats either in a bowl or in my hand for him to pick. He has the option (and yes, these are all cut to bite-sized treat pieces) of peanuts (big favorite), almonds, safflower seeds, papaya, pine nuts. I keep them mixed because he constantly changes what he wants for the day and even sometimes mid training session.

In our previous step up training I did for a small amount of time having him COMING towards my hand to willingly step up, without me asking for it in front of him. But then suddenly he was back to flying away.

My standstill is this: Poptart has started successfully recalling but ONLY if I have a treat wedged between my thumb and hand so he can land and instantly get a treat. I had occasionally had him recall to my hand without this present, I think he assumed one was present, but he STILL got the treat (and I even let him pick out a second for doing it like this). I CANNOT get him to fly to my hand unless a treat is present! I even hold the bowl behind my recall positioned hand and he gets all raised neck and eyeing it hard and even gives me some "i wanna fly" body language.

I need him to reliably recall to my hand without a treat present. But this standstill has been for..... like a whole month. It's infuriating. I feel like he 100% understand he will get a treat if he flies to my hand without a treat, as he has done it on occasion and OBVIOUSLY was rewarded for doing it. I don't know if he just really doesn't want to or what? He dislikes hands. I know this. I have also been giving a command "Touch," where when I say that, he'll allow me to place my hand where ever- I'll sometimes just lay my hand on his back for a couple of seconds, sometimes I'll lightly pet his head, or caress his wing to allow him to let me touch him. He respond well to this.

I try to end my sessions on his favorite - target training, and try to end before he gets like upset or bored or however he may get.
I have even done food management and had a few days that were him receiving his meals via a few training sessions a day which worked well but is a bit time consuming than I'd like.

We have breakthrough which seem AWESOME and they go well and I'm so proud then he goes back to like square one as if he doesn't know what I want of him.

I use a clicker to screenshot behavior. I KNOOOOW he knows what I want him to do. He is very smart.

Any recommendations? I am wanting to pull my hair out with how weird he is about this. The extreme success, then moments later utter failure. I don't get it.

 

[Zara]

 

[Zara]

@Monica @melissasparrots ?

 

[Conure101]

But first........ basic training. And oh my GOD!

Training… requires great… patience
Sorry, I don’t have any training advice. But I can give this thread a !

 

[melissasparrots]

I don't have much advice. My only experience free flying has been with raptors for falconry. My first thought is that maybe your bird is not an ideal candidate for free flight. I've had parrots that acted like him and would never consider free flying them. Honestly, for parrots, I'm more in favor of a large outdoor aviary big enough for them to fly a bit, feel the breeze and get some sun.
But, to answer your question as directly as I can, in raptors, there are a few different training mentalities. In fearful birds or those that just don't trust well, I have a never lie to the bird mentality. In other words, they can trust that when I whistle for them to come, I always have a treat in my hand. I don't lie and call them without a treat. Or at least very rarely. This means that I have excellent recall and even if I do need to lie occasionally because we spot another raptor or a gun hunter around and I want my bird on my NOW and don't have time to fish around for a treat in my bag, that large well of trust means they will most often come when called.
With aggressive raptors or sometimes just to get more repetitions, some people do a variable treat method. Where they usually start with a treat every time they call. Then they skip the treat sometimes. It might only be one out of every three recalls that has a treat. I've also hidden the treat in the palm of my hand so the bird can't see it directly, then recall the bird and rotate my hand palm up so they can see that what appeared to be an empty glove, actually had a treat in it. In my case, I most often do that if I need to distance myself from the food due to aggression and I'll call the bird to the glove and drop the food on the ground as soon as it lands so the bird still gets fed, but I'm one step separated from the food. That part probably is not something you would do with a parrot though.
I would question why you simply have to have recall without reward. But mostly, I would question just how badly this bird needs to be free flown. To me, he sounds like a poor candidate.
Another thought that might not be well received from a parrot owner is that it seems like you are trying to use hunger management to drive his motivation but you are not going to the extent of weight management. In raptors that are a little more skittish than the norm, sometimes you really have to control that weight well. Many people find that there are some individuals that you have to control that weight and hunger so tightly and keep the birds edge of hunger so strong in order to get compliance, that it just isn't in the bird's best interest to be used for falconry. In the falconry world, we just feed that bird up and release it. Wish it happy hunting and an independent life. For a pet, I'd consider just keeping it indoors. Not all are made to be free fliers. With birds of prey, I can see significant variation in response due to weight from one day to the next and based on outside temperature and fitness. In order to get consistent results, I weigh the bird and I weigh the bird's meal so that it hits the same weight at the same time the next day. Its possible you are having variable results due to variable weight. He might be eating more one day and not feeling as hungry the next even though he always goes the same amount of time between meals. Also, there is such a thing as the body adjusting to a new weight or hunger. So, if I drop my birds weight a couple grams and all of a sudden he's coming to the glove great for two days in a row and on the third day he couldn't care less...That is like going on a diet and after a few days it doesn't take much to fill you up. There should be an optimal weight where the bird comes when called but is still in good condition and you don't have to starve him. Just manage it. If you can't find that sweet spot, it probably means the bird just is not cut out for free flight.
I also question why you need to touch him. That might be a trust destroying move for your bird. I touch my raptors very little. Some people have hands all over the birds. I just check their keel bone frequently to assess musculature and the bottoms of their feet every few days. And its just a quick check and I have their feet restrained with jesses which you should not use for parrots.
Response can also vary due to fitness. As the bird becomes more fit and more muscular with increased flying, its response will often improve and falconers often find they can raise their bird's weight as the bird becomes more fit. Response can very considerably due to hormones. Many people who fly mature raptors cut their season short because the birds get flaky during the spring. Migration and nesting instincts can be strong. With a parrot, the urge to ignore the human and go find a nest cavity may play a role. With hawks, our choices are to quit flying and put the bird in the hawk house to molt for the summer in peace and quite, release it back to the wild, or cut more weight to get its attention focused back on the falconer so you can keep free flying. Many people just don't like having to cut weight again because of natural hormones, so we just end our season. It comes back to some individuals being less suitable to free flight or having different times of the year when they are better or worse. For falconry, its a winter sport for us, so the cold winter warming into spring affects us. I imagine there is some crossover between falconry techniques and parrot free flying. BUT, YOUR PARROT IS NOT A RAPTOR. There will be plenty of exceptions to how techniques are applied even if the same concept is used. Learn to understand your bird as he is and not what you wish him to be. It sounds like he might be the type of bird with a past that causes him to be less than typically tame for a conure. In which case, just keep him as a happy indoor pet.

 

[Monaco]

Will it cause problems down the road to use the treat method he's enjoying now?

 

[clarousel]

Is he afraid of your hands? I wonder if not being able to step up affects the recall.

"I even hold the bowl behind my recall positioned hand and he gets all raised neck and eyeing it hard and even gives me some "i wanna fly" body language."
this sounds like he questions your hand but I'm no expert!

Does he fly to you if you hold the treat up or show it with the other hand? I sometimes do this with Preeno. Also, have you tried showing the treat and then hiding it in your hand?

Will it cause problems down the road to use the treat method he's enjoying now?

I think it could be a problem if he free flies off somewhere and cannot see the treat from a distance.

 

[melissasparrots]

Free flight wise, I also question how you are going to get him back in the car. Lets say you have good recall and he comes when called. It would not surprise me if a bird like this tries to fly away as you approach the car, or try to get him into a carrier.

 

[Kenzie]

I don't have much advice. My only experience free flying has been with raptors for falconry. My first thought is that maybe your bird is not an ideal candidate for free flight. I've had parrots that acted like him and would never consider free flying them. Honestly, for parrots, I'm more in favor of a large outdoor aviary big enough for them to fly a bit, feel the breeze and get some sun.
But, to answer your question as directly as I can, in raptors, there are a few different training mentalities. In fearful birds or those that just don't trust well, I have a never lie to the bird mentality. In other words, they can trust that when I whistle for them to come, I always have a treat in my hand. I don't lie and call them without a treat. Or at least very rarely. This means that I have excellent recall and even if I do need to lie occasionally because we spot another raptor or a gun hunter around and I want my bird on my NOW and don't have time to fish around for a treat in my bag, that large well of trust means they will most often come when called.
With aggressive raptors or sometimes just to get more repetitions, some people do a variable treat method. Where they usually start with a treat every time they call. Then they skip the treat sometimes. It might only be one out of every three recalls that has a treat. I've also hidden the treat in the palm of my hand so the bird can't see it directly, then recall the bird and rotate my hand palm up so they can see that what appeared to be an empty glove, actually had a treat in it. In my case, I most often do that if I need to distance myself from the food due to aggression and I'll call the bird to the glove and drop the food on the ground as soon as it lands so the bird still gets fed, but I'm one step separated from the food. That part probably is not something you would do with a parrot though.
I would question why you simply have to have recall without reward. But mostly, I would question just how badly this bird needs to be free flown. To me, he sounds like a poor candidate.
Another thought that might not be well received from a parrot owner is that it seems like you are trying to use hunger management to drive his motivation but you are not going to the extent of weight management. In raptors that are a little more skittish than the norm, sometimes you really have to control that weight well. Many people find that there are some individuals that you have to control that weight and hunger so tightly and keep the birds edge of hunger so strong in order to get compliance, that it just isn't in the bird's best interest to be used for falconry. In the falconry world, we just feed that bird up and release it. Wish it happy hunting and an independent life. For a pet, I'd consider just keeping it indoors. Not all are made to be free fliers. With birds of prey, I can see significant variation in response due to weight from one day to the next and based on outside temperature and fitness. In order to get consistent results, I weigh the bird and I weigh the bird's meal so that it hits the same weight at the same time the next day. Its possible you are having variable results due to variable weight. He might be eating more one day and not feeling as hungry the next even though he always goes the same amount of time between meals. Also, there is such a thing as the body adjusting to a new weight or hunger. So, if I drop my birds weight a couple grams and all of a sudden he's coming to the glove great for two days in a row and on the third day he couldn't care less...That is like going on a diet and after a few days it doesn't take much to fill you up. There should be an optimal weight where the bird comes when called but is still in good condition and you don't have to starve him. Just manage it. If you can't find that sweet spot, it probably means the bird just is not cut out for free flight.
I also question why you need to touch him. That might be a trust destroying move for your bird. I touch my raptors very little. Some people have hands all over the birds. I just check their keel bone frequently to assess musculature and the bottoms of their feet every few days. And its just a quick check and I have their feet restrained with jesses which you should not use for parrots.
Response can also vary due to fitness. As the bird becomes more fit and more muscular with increased flying, its response will often improve and falconers often find they can raise their bird's weight as the bird becomes more fit. Response can very considerably due to hormones. Many people who fly mature raptors cut their season short because the birds get flaky during the spring. Migration and nesting instincts can be strong. With a parrot, the urge to ignore the human and go find a nest cavity may play a role. With hawks, our choices are to quit flying and put the bird in the hawk house to molt for the summer in peace and quite, release it back to the wild, or cut more weight to get its attention focused back on the falconer so you can keep free flying. Many people just don't like having to cut weight again because of natural hormones, so we just end our season. It comes back to some individuals being less suitable to free flight or having different times of the year when they are better or worse. For falconry, its a winter sport for us, so the cold winter warming into spring affects us. I imagine there is some crossover between falconry techniques and parrot free flying. BUT, YOUR PARROT IS NOT A RAPTOR. There will be plenty of exceptions to how techniques are applied even if the same concept is used. Learn to understand your bird as he is and not what you wish him to be. It sounds like he might be the type of bird with a past that causes him to be less than typically tame for a conure. In which case, just keep him as a happy indoor pet.

Sorry if it seemed unclear- he ALWAYS 100% gets a reward to flying to me. He gets DOUBLE reward for flying to me without me flashing a treat, and I want him to be able to fly to me without a treat wedged between my thumb - that is typically the only way i can get him to come to me and he comes nearly all of the time with a treat wedged there.

I am personally under the mindset that any parrot can be a freefly candidate (unless of course they have mental or physical issues stopping them from such). But training, the right person, and different methods for different birds etc would be required and obviously those who had been far neglected may have to be counted out or worked on extensively. I am convinced he just doesn't view me as a favorable person and maybe we TOGETHER are not free flight compatible. He enjoys being around me, we chat and have head bobbing contests a lot but when my boyfriend comes around, he gets super stoked and he prefers my boyfriend. My BF won't train with him, though, and I feel like if my BF did... I'd have a totally different and eager to train bird.

He has done enough repetitions over the course of nearly 2 months to understand the behavior I want and the reward he gets. I had him successfully do a few repetitions just yesterday without holding a treat on my thumb, but it's like he just "forgets," and after a few successes, is back to only wanting to fly to me with a treat wedged between my thumb (I know 100% he's not dumb though and he's not forgetting that easily, just doesn't want to).

The whole touch training is just to get him comfortable with me touching him in case of emergencies and to check him over well and I'd like to eventually work on doing his nails without restrain. I'm fine with him being as independent as he is and uninterested in loves, pets, etc and prefer it that way to not create a hormonal bird but I would like him to associate me touching him with positive treat giving to ensure if I ever need to handle him and touch him, he won't freak out. He responds very well to this training and has even started coming towards my cupped hand to be touched so he can earn his reward.

As for the weight management, I'd have to do more research and it's unclear to me what exactly that consists of but under NO circumstances do I want him always on the edge of extreme hunger. I would like our training to be 100% joyful encounters where that are no hunger pangs and we can earn yummy rewards. He did well when I was using his pellet diet as training so he'd get his meals 100% through training but I won't always have time for that. I made sure to include his favorite - target training - in those sessions to ensure he was easily earning rewards and not feeling awfully hungry.

 

[Kenzie]

Free flight wise, I also question how you are going to get him back in the car. Lets say you have good recall and he comes when called. It would not surprise me if a bird like this tries to fly away as you approach the car, or try to get him into a carrier.

And this is why I would never consider free flying him if our training does not come out perfect! I am not keen on losing my bird, nor am I keen on having a bird freeflying that can't come to me when it's time to go. If I can't get a great recall with him indoors and outdoors (I work with my Amazon at batting cage outdoors), then I may not be the person for him to freefly with.

 

[Kenzie]

Is he afraid of your hands? I wonder if not being able to step up affects the recall.

"I even hold the bowl behind my recall positioned hand and he gets all raised neck and eyeing it hard and even gives me some "i wanna fly" body language."
this sounds like he questions your hand but I'm no expert!

Does he fly to you if you hold the treat up or show it with the other hand? I sometimes do this with Preeno. Also, have you tried showing the treat and then hiding it in your hand?


I think it could be a problem if he free flies off somewhere and cannot see the treat from a distance.

He does sometimes. He's SUPER SUPER weird with training. One day it'll be like good, like he remembers our sessions. And the next day, or sometimes like the next session it's like he just looks at me as if I have a notecard labeled "STUPID" on my head and we have never even ATTEMPTED the training we've been doing for the last month and a half or two.

I mentioned in an above reply that I may just not be the person for him. He likes my company - we have fun chatting and playing (but he's NEVER been a touch bird, so we just use our voices and body language). He doesn't hate me like attack, bite, etc. I can get him to step up when needed and he'll even fly to a perch next to me to sit and chat with me and get my attention. He'll also come over if I'm giving another bird attention because he wants it. HOWEVER, when my boyfriend is around he gets more excited, wants to fly around to room to land on whatever perch is closest to him and loves when my BF talks to him. I feel as if my BF would train him, we'd see a successful freefly candidate.

I wouldn't ever freefly him if I cannot get a reliable recall on a cue only and no treat present. He is welcome to always expect a treat and I'll always reward but this will NEVER ever work if we cannot phase out the physical presence of the treat for a solid recall.

 

[Kenzie]

I don't know if there are other techniques for me to use.... I just don't know what to do! I've never met such a hard headed thing before.

I cannot tell exactly what he wants of me. I wish I could ask him how we can make this easier for him.

 

[Kenzie]

Will it cause problems down the road to use the treat method he's enjoying now?

Unfortunately for freeflight, yes. For basic recall to just do training, it's no big deal but still something I would want to eventually phase out.
For freeflying specifically they can fly far and not always see a treat and your recall should be on a cue preferably. Always reward for recall, but shouldn't have to always have a treat in eyeview to get a response from them.

 

[Kenzie]

The only thing I have not tried has been training my Amazon in front of him. Observational learning + the feel for competition. Since he flies over to take attention from the other birds, I feel as though he would be jealous to see us interacting and my Zon being rewarded. I'll have to get my Zon back on track, though! I've been tunnel visioned on Poptart and my previous house was so small for the training that I had backseated her. But she enjoyed it and I really need to get her exercising again.

 

[Monica]

I don't have an issue getting him if needed like urgently or to get back to his cage- after about 2-3 fly offs he will ALWAYS step up.

Poptart flying off could be part of the issue....

I try to end my sessions on his favorite - target training

Have you incorporated target training into recall training? I imagine you have, but just double checking.


Sometimes when you are stuck on a behavior, it helps to try teaching a new, different behavior before going back to the one you are stuck on. Not sure if something like that may help.

 

[melissasparrots]

I don't know if there are other techniques for me to use.... I just don't know what to do! I've never met such a hard headed thing before.

I cannot tell exactly what he wants of me. I wish I could ask him how we can make this easier for him.

Is it possible that you are just trying too hard and he is bored? With my first falconry bird, I misunderstood a behavior. After a couple of weeks of creance(long leash) training, she seemed like she would come to the glove reliably, but every now and then she would fly right over my head and shoot for a tree behind me. Of course, if she had been free flown, this is exactly what I would want her to do. I would want her to move just ahead of me, tree to tree as I walk a field. But, at the time, I just wanted compliance and assumed we needed more repetition. In reality, the bird was ready for free flight, and I ended up over training her. I am totally not saying Poptart is ready for free flight. However, it might be time to change to a different room, or work on specifically transferring from your hand to the carrier or work on going into and out of the car until you can get more specific guidance from someone that free flies parrots. In the falconry world, inconsistent results are usually variations in hunger. If you can get 10 recalls perfectly one day and just one recall before he isn't interested the next, that might be the difference in hunger level. You can also experiment with having lower calorie food as your training food. His motivation might not be as high for a lower calorie food, but you might be able to get more repetitions. Or, offer pieces of sunflower instead of the whole sunflower.

 

[Kenzie]

Poptart flying off could be part of the issue....




Have you incorporated target training into recall training? I imagine you have, but just double checking.


Sometimes when you are stuck on a behavior, it helps to try teaching a new, different behavior before going back to the one you are stuck on. Not sure if something like that may help.

He doesn't like stepping up but like I said, will when needed and I was recommended to move on from stepping up training because he was regressing after doing fantastic.

I have started recall with target but he wasn't keen on it, could not get a response out of him- I may try this again since he has successfully begun recalling at times.

I was thinking about going ahead and teaching a spin and wave, so I may do that.

 

[Kenzie]

Is it possible that you are just trying too hard and he is bored? With my first falconry bird, I misunderstood a behavior. After a couple of weeks of creance(long leash) training, she seemed like she would come to the glove reliably, but every now and then she would fly right over my head and shoot for a tree behind me. Of course, if she had been free flown, this is exactly what I would want her to do. I would want her to move just ahead of me, tree to tree as I walk a field. But, at the time, I just wanted compliance and assumed we needed more repetition. In reality, the bird was ready for free flight, and I ended up over training her. I am totally not saying Poptart is ready for free flight. However, it might be time to change to a different room, or work on specifically transferring from your hand to the carrier or work on going into and out of the car until you can get more specific guidance from someone that free flies parrots. In the falconry world, inconsistent results are usually variations in hunger. If you can get 10 recalls perfectly one day and just one recall before he isn't interested the next, that might be the difference in hunger level. You can also experiment with having lower calorie food as your training food. His motivation might not be as high for a lower calorie food, but you might be able to get more repetitions. Or, offer pieces of sunflower instead of the whole sunflower.

Thanks for this insight! I DO have many folks who freefly and have offered me advice and I talk to one VERY often, I just wanted to come here and get insight on other folks who train - not specifically for recall/flight, but any training to see if maybe anyone had solutions to this hiccup.

It's possible he is bored. And I have thought of trying to do multiple tricks in a training sessions, but I am scared to teach him that if he doesn't want to do what I've asked, we can just willy nilly move on and he won't ever have to do what I want him to do the most. He has it in him, I know 100%! I am just not approaching our sessions correctly and I have no idea which way to turn. Poptart can 100% be successful with this.

Do you think he'll learn that "I don't want to recall, I'm just going to wait until she moves onto a next trick"? Is there a way to avoid that?

 

[Kenzie]

Is it possible that you are just trying too hard and he is bored? With my first falconry bird, I misunderstood a behavior. After a couple of weeks of creance(long leash) training, she seemed like she would come to the glove reliably, but every now and then she would fly right over my head and shoot for a tree behind me. Of course, if she had been free flown, this is exactly what I would want her to do. I would want her to move just ahead of me, tree to tree as I walk a field. But, at the time, I just wanted compliance and assumed we needed more repetition. In reality, the bird was ready for free flight, and I ended up over training her. I am totally not saying Poptart is ready for free flight. However, it might be time to change to a different room, or work on specifically transferring from your hand to the carrier or work on going into and out of the car until you can get more specific guidance from someone that free flies parrots. In the falconry world, inconsistent results are usually variations in hunger. If you can get 10 recalls perfectly one day and just one recall before he isn't interested the next, that might be the difference in hunger level. You can also experiment with having lower calorie food as your training food. His motivation might not be as high for a lower calorie food, but you might be able to get more repetitions. Or, offer pieces of sunflower instead of the whole sunflower.

OH and as for the new room or something, we literally just moved in a week ago. It's a new environment and when I saw he was comfortable in the new home and understood the layout after a few days of playing only, we resumed training. I would TOTALLY make the flights more interesting for him.... but he is even worse if I change it up. I have tried different heights and different distances. I haven't even ATTEMPTED out of sight recall because he will barely come to me IN SIGHT, no chance he'll come out of sight.

 

[Monica]

He doesn't like stepping up but like I said, will when needed and I was recommended to move on from stepping up training because he was regressing after doing fantastic.

I have started recall with target but he wasn't keen on it, could not get a response out of him- I may try this again since he has successfully begun recalling at times.

I was thinking about going ahead and teaching a spin and wave, so I may do that.

I understand that he doesn't like to step up... however, if he ever feels the need to fly away instead of stepping up, then you are hurting your training by him feeling the need to fly away... You need to figure out a way to get him to comply without flying away. For example... why do you want him to step up? Could it be to move him to his cage? Can you get him to target to his cage instead of having him step up? If you need him in a carrier, can you teach him to go into the carrier himself rather than putting him in the carrier?

How can you change what you are asking to get the desired behavior while avoiding the undesired behavior?


Can you describe the steps you took on getting recall through target training?


Definitely try changing up his training regime!