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Hazards of buying unweaned birds - Breeder's input appreciated.

melissasparrots

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Things that stand out as going wrong:
1. I had one apparently very healthy quaker baby drop dead for no apparent reason while I was cleaning the brooder. Necropsy showed a heart defect. I've raised over a couple dozen babies from that pair, so I don't think its bad genetics. Just bad luck for that chick. If he'd been sold unweaned (he was on about 3 feedings) the owners would have had a fairly traumatic experience. Most of those sorts of things will have shown themselves by the time the baby is weaned. So by purchasing weaned, not only do most breeders have a much better health guarantee, but the bird has also been in the world long enough for at least most congenetal issues to become apparent.

2. Splay legs and learning how to make a hobble to fix it.

3. Toes not in the right position and learning how to fix that.

4. A brooder that stopped heating consistenly and caused slow crops on day ones.

5. Parent parrotlets that overstretched the babies crop and figuring out how to get enough food into the bird but not have it go rotten sitting in the bottom of a flacid crop.

6. Baby swallowed a pine shaving on the eve of a major holiday when our emergency vets don't see birds. Parrotlet chick weight 11 grams when he did it. It took me a couple days to get it manipulated just right to get it out of him. Trying to keep him hydrated and then catching him up from lost growth time was a challenge. He made it though.

7. Babies pulled out of the nest with bacterial infections. Which after antibiotics turns into a fungal infection. So far in 25 years of doing this small time I've never had a chick get an infection after being pulled from the nest and only a couple times before pulling from the nest. Got a crash course in why its best to just spring for the culture and sensitivity right from the start rather than just settling for a gram stain to diagnose. You can't wait to try on a few different antibiotics meanwhile a bird is going down hill. You need to get the right drug the first try. At the very least a little more up front expense will save you by preventing multiple trips back and forth the vet, several weeks of drugs when you could have gotten it done in 10 days, and babies feeling icky longer than needed. Sometimes my vet needs to be told what I want him to do because more often than not he's happy prescribing after just a gram stain and thinks he's doing me a favor and saving me money. Not.

8. First flight and all that goes with that. Usually its directly into a wall, sliding down like some cartoon character and hitting the floor with a thud. I've personally never had one get hurt, but I have heard cracked beaks, brain injury and death from that.

9. Learning how to deal with the first independence phase and training to be gentle. My amazons can sometimes go through one heck of a push for independence at around weaning. Don't touch me, leave me alone, your too boring and old to bother with anymore. Most inexperienced hand-feeders don't have the skills to deal with that. They seem to be under the impression that buying unweaned they will get to shape the babies behavior, form a wonderful parent child bond and everything will be great all day long after that. Not. Baby will still at some point try to experiment with some new and not so desireable behaviors. Better to get that out of the way at the breeders than risk a bunch of hurt feelings and being sold to someone else again anyway.

10. Almost forgot-babies that for no apparent reason don't want to eat or have a lousy feeding response. I've had a few amazon babies that I fed so well when tiny that they got to be super lazy feeders. A couple of the girls even decided that regurgitating just swallowed food for a second tasting was fun, very self rewarding and thus habit forming not to mention messy. I can see someone inexperienced aspirating a baby or subjecting it to all sorts of vet visits trying to figure out whats wrong with it when really nothing is wrong. Not to mention if they turned to the internet message boards for help they'd be referred to a vet and likely given all sorts of advice to deal with a medical issue the bird doesn't have. I did have to learn that sometimes with some species letting them go empty between meals so they get a little hungry is a good thing. Some other species need every calorie they can get in order to reach full size. Just because I hand-raised a bunch of 'tiels, parrotlets and quakers didn't make me ready for all the little quirks that amazons and other species have. They are all different and I learn something new usually through my own mistakes any time I take on a new species. I don't sell unweaned because I can't imagine how it could possibly be better for the baby to go from someone experienced and familiar to someone not experienced. People will absolutely come out of the woodwork trying to convince me how experienced they are with hand-feeding and how nothing ever went wrong before so they can buy a baby from me unweaned. I'm not so concerned that nothing ever went wrong. I want to know how your going to deal with it when something does go wrong and that only really comes from experience. In many cases its a judgment call to go to the vet or deal at home. Is this baby dropping weight like crazy because its sick or is it just getting ready for its first flight? Only previous experience with that particular species teaches those sorts of things.

I'll post more if I think of them later. Ooops just remembered #11-ruptured air sack leaking air bubbles into the skin around the crop forcing formula into one small area of the crop and not emptying out of that and turning hard. Vet couldn't figure out what was wrong because he wasn't experienced with avian pediatrics and his old eyes wouldn't let him see the nearly microscopic air bubbles under the skin around the crop. Grams stain showed no bacterieal issue but baby was prescribed baytril just in case and because vet had no clue otherwise. Unfortunately, birds on medicine often feel icky because of the meds and don't eat as well or vomit. With babies needing food to grow, unecessarily medicating a baby just in case isn't always the best way to go. I ended up treating that one myself by poking a sterilized needle under the skin and squeezing the air out. Had to do that twice, plus a few more days for all the little bubbles to disipate and the baby needed plenty of TLC after to get caught up and not end up stunted. Have no idea how he ruptured an aircell sitting in a kleenex lined bowl. Baby was about 7 days old when he did that. I have to wonder if I over filled his crop a little bit and stretched the surrounding tissues too much. I can't see how that would rupture and air sack, but ????? I'll probably never know. I never did end up using the baytril on him. By far the huge majority of babies I've had with problems have survived. Its very rare for me to loose a chick.
Melissa
 
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featherbabies

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One thing I do is to make sure that every baby that has weaned, still stays for a week or two, just to decrease the chances that the baby will regress. Luckily it has never happened, but I do have a plan in place. I would recomend that they offer warm mushy foods from a little spoon, like oastmeal, or cream of wheat. The baby could get the comfort while decreasing the chance of the new owner aspirating the baby. Just let the little one have a few nibbles from the spoon rather than putting it in the mouth.
As breeders, we never stop learning. A fun aspect is that different species behave differently as babies. My tiels would always begin refusing formula when they were getting ready to fledge, which I expected. But my gcc babies would refuse a lot earlier in the process. I panicked until I realized it was a pattern. As soon as the babies "felt" they dropped enough, they began eating better again.
 

palmtoolady

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I've been a breeder/handfeeder since the late 90's and have done thousand's of hand feedings. I shudder every time I see that someone is going to buy an unweaned baby especially when they have no experience. While you don't have to be a rocket scientist and good old common sense goes a long way there is a lot more to it than mixing some formula and feeding a baby. One of the most important things I have learned from feeding so many babies over the years is that the more experience you have the more it helps. An experienced hand feeder can usually quickly recognize that there is a problem and know what to do about the problem whereas someone with little to no experience might be wondering if there is even a problem or trying this or that until it is too late. I have a personal policy of when there is a problem to consult my avian vet first rather than fool around and be on the internet asking for home remedies or advice. I'm a firm believer in going to the vet first and then write about it on the internet in order to share the experience with others. I am very proud to say that with the hundreds of babies I have had, greys, eclectus, caiques and rosies mainly that I've ever only lost one baby. I found a rosebreasted cockatoo baby dead in the brooder one morning when it was 3 weeks old. Of course it had a necropsy and was sent for histo which came back that it had a hematoma on its liver that it was most likely born with and it ruptured and the baby bled out. There was nothing anyone could have done to save that one. I have also never aspirated a baby or burned one's crop. Even though I've had a lot of feeding experience I'm always careful. I have another personal policy that no matter how much of a hurry I'm in or how stressed I am that if I am feeding a baby all that is put aside and I make sure to slow down and pay attention. That's not to say I've never had problems with babies because I have and the more babies the more problems, law of averages. LOL I've had everything from a runny nose and slight bacterial infection, to a ruptured air sac, broken legs, yolk sack peritonitis, aspiration pneumonia (I didn't aspirate the baby, he was having foot problems and my vet had him in a hobble which upset him so much that at some point he managed to aspirate a bit of formula) and I'm sure a few others. Luckily with the help of my vet we got all the babies through these problems. Unweaned babies are more supseptible to problems than weaned babies. I don't think the average person is capable of handling these types of problems nor should they have to. I'm a big believer in proper equipment for raising babies. The younger the baby the most critical the temperature and humidity. 2 degrees can mean life or death to a new hatchling. A professional breeder usually has state of the art brooders to keep their chicks in rather that the person who is going to buy an unweaned baby and try keeping it in an aquarium with a heating pad. They simply don't want to make the investment in equipment they are only going to use for a short time and I don't blame them.

Earlier in this post I mentioned that common sense went a long way. A few years ago I joined a hand feeding list thinking that I could offer some good advice when asked. After a few months I found that it was causing me too much heart ache listening to the problems people were having because they bought an unweaned baby. I would try to explain to them the importance of a good thermometer and carefully checking the temperature of the formula. They would tell me how they didn't need one they could test a bit with their lips and know if the temperature was right or not. I'd try to explain the importance of daily weighing their babies and funny but some people would tell me how they could just look at them and tell. My final straw when I couldn't take any more was when a girl told me her baby had formula running out of its check and when I told her she had a crop burn and needed to get to an avian vet ASAP she insisted she could not have possibly burned the crop and was going to put skin glue over the hole. I know most people would have far more sense and listen and really try to do a good job but I think its much better to buy a weaned baby. Just one final thing I'll add here is that yes, a baby will bond to its hand feeder but they will just as easily bond to the next person that takes care of them. You definately do not have to hand feed to bond.

Pat
 

Greycloud

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Excellent info Pat! I wish people would just realize it is not a game. Little lives are at risk. :(
 

Ziggymon

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Very informative thread, even to someone like me who has no intention of ever getting a baby bird. Thank you.
 

Kathie

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Short and sweet.

I have no time for any breeder, pet shop or bird store that will sell an unweaned baby. I think it should be against the law.

Even the most experienced hand feeder can make a mistake.

To allow an inexperienced hand feeder to take a baby home is incorrigible. Further, it is a bunch of monkey drizzle that a bird will bond better if the new owner feeds it. All it does is allow more room for new babies to come in to sell. Move one out and bring more in.

Steps off soap box.
 
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avianantics

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I no longer breed or raise babies, but I did for nearly 30 years and will be happy to share my experiences. But, it's late and there's no room on the soapbox, 'cause Kathie won't move over. So.... I will delay my input until tomorrow. Goodnight all.
 

Leza

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Short and sweet.

I have no time for any breeder, pet shop or bird store that will sell an unweaned baby. I think it should be against the law.

Even the most experienced hand feeder can make a mistake.

To allow an inexperienced hand feeder to take a baby home is incorrigible. Further, it is a bunch of monkey drizzle that a bird will bond better if the new owner feeds it. All it does is allow more room for new babies to come in to sell. Move one out and bring more in.

Steps off soap box.
I personally wouldn't consider this an opinion or an emotion, but the cold hard TRUTH!! :highfive:
 

Merlie

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I no longer breed or raise babies, but I did for nearly 30 years and will be happy to share my experiences. But, it's late and there's no room on the soapbox, 'cause Kathie won't move over. So.... I will delay my input until tomorrow. Goodnight all.
Shelly ..

Would still love your input on the subject. I know you'll have great info.



Short and sweet.

I have no time for any breeder, pet shop or bird store that will sell an unweaned baby. I think it should be against the law.

Even the most experienced hand feeder can make a mistake.

To allow an inexperienced hand feeder to take a baby home is incorrigible. Further, it is a bunch of monkey drizzle that a bird will bond better if the new owner feeds it. All it does is allow more room for new babies to come in to sell. Move one out and bring more in.

Steps off soap box.


Oops. Sorry. I didn't read through the entire thread before I responded. :(
No worries Kathie ... I feel the same way you do on all counts. :heart:
 

LaSelva

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Not a breeder but I'll quote one....

As for my own experience first, I bought two of my birds from Parrots of the World unweaned. Marc Morrone showed me how to hand feed properly and was always available to answer any concerns. I had no problems. They are a Blue Throated Macaw and a Timneh. He’s actually been selling birds this way since he opened his doors in 1979. Most of the birds in his store are out and about in the bird room and interact with the customers. The majority of the birds are unweaned baby’s with very few older birds and some of his personal pets. The latter are all wild caught from the importation days. The youngest birds are in glass tanks or on straw bedding tables. His birds come shipped to his store from his breeding facilities in Florida.

Now the breeder quote (not the hazards you wanted and a bit of a difference of opinion).....

 
“Between the ages of four and six weeks of age a baby bird naturally develops awareness of its surroundings but its desires still revolve mainly around satisfaction of hunger and sleeping. This is the particular time period that it’s best to ship the bird. At this stage of development, it’s a natural occurrence for it to spend time in a darkened enclosed area and---being placed into and traveling in--- a shipping crate-- creates very little or no stress. At this stage of development it has yet to acquire prejudices. Prejudice about just how warm the hand feeding formula is. About what type of feeding instruments are used. About how it’s physically manipulated prior to and during the hand feeding process. About the color of clothing, the body shape and size of the caregiver. And about it’s environment. It is at this stage of development that they are the most adaptable without stress. It is at this stage of development that they can be hand fed easily, even by a novice with minimal experience. But this is also the time when they will begin to develop awareness of everything around them. They begin to develop opinions as to what is normal and how things should be. They begin to judge their security in an environment by how predictable that environment is. When they are permitted to go through this very important mental development stage in a retail pet shop, they become a better socialized bird than one that is kept till weaned or until the full-feathered weaning stage by the breeder. They become accustomed to all different sizes, shapes and colors of people and therefore the bird is less selective as to who it will allow to become its friend. They become accustomed to all different noise and activity levels and therefore are less stressed at the variable activity levels that they will incur when purchased and moved into their new home and environment. The fact is that you can never make up for the well-rounded experience that a baby parrot gets in a good pet shop---- during the most important psychological development stages between the ages of six weeks through weaning.”

“I have hand raised and sold well over 20,000 parrots in the last 20 years, and I have sold them at all stages of development. I also have many long-term clients that I have been with for ten to 15 years. Clients who buy from me as well as many other breeders. The statistics are in and they speak very clearly. --- The vast majority of birds that wind up being considered maladjusted are those that are not shipped from the breeder to the pet shop until they are either ready to wean or are already weaned.” - Howard Voren
 
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JLcribber

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Anyone who has "sold" over 20,000 parrots is "the" source of a much larger problem than any unweaned bird.

I won't even comment on Mark "Moron".
 

Lovebird Lady

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On THAT note, I have a few questions. What determines the timing of a baby bird's readiness for adoption? When is a baby ready to move to its adoptive home from the breeder? Does it depend on species? I know that an exact time cannot be determined as this varies from species to species and from individual parrot to individua parrot, but on average, let's say, for a baby Poicephalus Brown Head, what would be the average age for such a species to be ready to move to its new home?
 

Renae

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There is more to hand rearing babies than just the feeding part. Temperature control, illness awareness, weaning onto solid foods, fledging .. are all part of it as well .. so advice regarding those issues are definitely included in the "hand feeding" experience.
There certainly is, and there is a lot to say on this subject, when someone asks for advice on hand-feeding, and it is their first time, you don’t know where to begin.

I have only been hand-feeding now for around 5 years, it isn’t very long, but in that time, I have lost a few babies, and I have had babies suddenly fall ill. There really is so much to take in when you consider it, that baby is RELYING on YOU, their life is in your hands.

Most of what I was going to say has already been posted, so I won’t repeat it. :)
 

Ziggymon

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AmberMuffinz

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On THAT note, I have a few questions. What determines the timing of a baby bird's readiness for adoption? When is a baby ready to move to its adoptive home from the breeder? Does it depend on species? I know that an exact time cannot be determined as this varies from species to species and from individual parrot to individua parrot, but on average, let's say, for a baby Poicephalus Brown Head, what would be the average age for such a species to be ready to move to its new home?
A couple weeks after they stop taking formula is when we feel comfortable finding them homes. It really depends on the species and the birds. A lot of our cockatiels weaned a week or two before the websites and people said. We never forced them, we just offered fresh foods and seed/pellets in their "big birdie cage" and they just stopped taking formula because they were eating a lot of other stuff on their own. You can look up online to see the intervals of certain species, but some birds will wean later or earlier, so really I would just say a couple weeks after they fully weaned to make sure they don't go backwards in that time.
 

Didomum

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Igot my miligold at 6 weeks old and at this time still hand feeding him. I just want to put in that is not something you should think of doing. It not easy or even fun most of the time. My hand feeding history so to speak is with budgies lots and lots of them from the time I was very young. But feeding budgies and feeding macaws are so fare apart. I'm so lucky to have a great avian vet at my beck and call that also is a dear friend. Without this help I could not and would not have taken this on. I hear "oh! But it's a baby" yes a very big strong powerful baby. Im going to have to handle a very big strong boy that wants to be independent and not want mum feeding him any more when he ready for weaning. That part is going to be hard. Getting the feed right keeping the weight going up keeping the baby alive and well is just the beginning. If you find the right breeder that has had time to spend raising the bird not just feeding it you will end up with a much better bird for life then trying to hand feed one yourself.
So why am I hand feeding with out going in to to much. There was a need for this baby and some other to be moved out. There was no choice. But anyone that thinks it easy think again. Yes I have a wonderful young man that we hope will always stay a friendly and lover able as he is right now. But it's not wrote in stone.
 

KatherinesBirds

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I have never liked selling birds that are not fully weaned and eating on their own. I have very few people who feed precisely the way I do. My instruments are always kept very clean and the food is always fresh and at the exact temperature it needs to be. Guess I just like the control factor that I have over how its done. I have seen food go down the wrong way with buyers who are not experienced with syringe feeding. Brooders must be clean and kept at the right temp. My formula was given to me by Robbie Harris in CA and it is a homemade one. Everyone has their own method. I prefer to sell a bird that is eating on its own.
 

CaliEckies

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I can post my personal experience on here:
Purchasing a bird who is not weaned can result in death. I don't point fingers b/c I am not sure who did it but that matters very little the end result is still the same. We had 4 people hand feeding a baby Grey and he received a crop burn. We took him to an avian specialist spend thousands on surgery to fix him and he still passed away. So even if only one person on here saw my post hopefully it would persuade them not to take on hand feeding and even though in our situation we did not get him from the breeder the person who handed him over did the result was still the same. It is illegal in California to sell unweaned birds... but many many many breeders still do so.

RIP Raider <3

raider.jpg
 

LaSelva

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"I don't point fingers b/c I am not sure who did it but that matters very little"

Regardless of whether the bird was sold unweaned, it took someone to make the formula too hot as well as neglect to check the temp. Sorry, I don't see how you can say that whoever did it (the personal incompetence) matters very little. IMO it should matter because they could do it again. I think, as with driving a car (which could also result in death), the hazards are more a matter of the competence of the person doing it. And that 's where the accountability is. There's nothing wrong with making people aware of theoretical hazards or what can go wrong in any endeavor - such as in a thread like this. But the skewed perspective is when they are portrayed as the norm.
 
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allen

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ok i just came across this thread and here is what i do.

first rule i have is no baby leaves till he/she is fully weaned. even if the person is a breeder. some will say i am a breeder and i know how to hand feed. as a breeder i do not know if what they are saying is the truth.

2nd i try to let the parents feed the babies. but if i have to i am well prepared to take over. thermonitor/syringes/digital scale/brooder/heating pad/measuring spoons just for the formula/i always buy fresh formula with every new clutch as formula has an expiry date

3rd i always keep the babies an extra 7-10 days after they are weaned just to be sure they are drinking and eating on there own

4th i have turned buyers down who wanted to buy my babies if they have not got a proper size cage or do not answer the care of birds questions right. and there are times i just get this feeling not to sell to certain people. it maybe just me but they are my babies till they leave and as a breeder we need to be carefull who we sell them to
 
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