Do Handfed Birds Make Good Breeders?

[inquisitivefeathers]

(I just recently joined this site, and this is the first general bird forum I've joined (I'm not normally a forum person, I just like to read) so I hope lots of people will post on this thread. I've posted on other bird forums before that were specifically aligned to specific birds (finches, pigeons, etc) and I feel like I tend to get ignored, with my topics only getting a single reply while like all the other topics get like 10+. Anyway, sorry for the rant, I just hope I'm treated well here.)

So, it's becoming increasingly common for birds to be handfed, from tiny budgies and lovebirds to huge macaws. These days, it can actually be fairly difficult to find a bird that's NOT handfed (but still bred by a reputable breeder).
Hey, I don't mind handfeeding and all, but...
Who are going to be the parent birds for our next generation??
Yes, many breeders do hold back parent-raised birds if they can...IF THEY CAN being the key word. There's so many birds out there who CANNOT raise a clutch to full maturity. We have birds who will kill their mates, birds who will kill their chicks, birds who will mutilate their chicks, birds who will simply ignore their chicks after a certain age. It wouldn't be strange if a well-adjusted, breeder bird becomes very expensive and hard to find.
So here's the concern.
Suppose there is a hypothetical world where there ARE no parent-raised birds. Every single parrot is handfed.
Based on your experiences, how well do these handfed birds breed? Can they accept another bird as their mate? Do they know to lay eggs in the nestbox? Do they know how to feed their chicks to the point of maturity?

SO, my question to you all is: In your experience, how good of parents have handfed birds been?
Most importantly, can handfed birds produce parent-raised birds? As in, could handfed birds produce babies and raise them up completely with no human intervention?

This IS a pretty urgent question for me, considering I love my parrots and hope that they will be here for years and years to come and so that even my (future) great-grandchildren can enjoy them. I need to know your experiences of breeding handfed parrots.
Increasingly breeders (especially of large parrots) aren't even letting their own birds incubate! Eggs are laid, eggs are sent to incubator, and babies are raised from day-one. Hey, I don't have a problem with it..but does the lack of bird parenting for the babies result in progeny that don't know how to parent themselves?

Please reply!

 

[AmberMuffinz]

This is a VERY interesting question and I am looking forward to the answers. I have heard on here several times that human raised babies don't grow up and learn the same skills that parent raised chicks do. I'm not sure as to what extent, and albeit it'd be hard to find articles on it since finding good scientific peer reviewed articles on birds is hard enough as it is. I feel like hand fed babies MIGHT not see another bird as a mate like they should, but maybe it depends on the bird? I don't know if Zen was ever handfed but I really really think he was because he is absolutely in love with me and sees me as his mate. He is not fond of other birds at all. I don't think he would ever mate with another bird. Ever.

I'm ASSUMING that after years and years of conditioning, that birds would expect a shorter feeding period and might just abandon their babies after a certain period of time. Especially so if that has happened the entire breeding life of this bird. But there is no evidence that I know of, I am only speculating. A lot of people have advocated for co-parenting in recent years though and perhaps that will take off when more research shows that the birds are more confident and learn more skills this way rather than just all out handfed.

 

[inquisitivefeathers]

I'm ASSUMING that after years and years of conditioning, that birds would expect a shorter feeding period and might just abandon their babies after a certain period of time. Especially so if that has happened the entire breeding life of this bird. But there is no evidence that I know of, I am only speculating.

Your speculation is probably correct. I was reading an article on breeding Indian Ringnecks (link is Old World Aviaries: Breeding Indian Ringnecks) and it mentioned:

"Many new, young pairs, will normally only have 1 clutch their first year. So, it's a good idea to leave them in the nest longer, and let the parents learn how to be good parents. Once you pull babies at a young age, many Ringneck parents will pluck their babies if you try to leave them in the nest longer, as they figure it's past time for the babies to leave. "
This was an article published by a Breeder's Association journal thing, so it's definitely coming from someone who knows their stuff.

This is pretty serious stuff here. =/ I can't think of a single captive animal species other than our parrots who literally CANNOT raise their own young from birth (or in a bird's case, hatching) to adulthood. And this snippet may indicate that once a clutch is pulled, those parents are no longer going to raise babies any later than the age when the clutch was pulled...ouch.
Thanks for replying, by the way!

 

[Holiday]

On an individual basis, I don't think it's cut and dried. Some handfed babies may show no interest in having a bird mate or rearing young; others do just fine if allowed (my p'lets would rear young every year if I didn't boil their eggs). And, many previously handfed babies end up in the hands of breeders. I can't count the number of rehome ads I've seen that say something like "proven breeder bird but was pet previously and could be again with work."

There isn't likely to be a shortage of pet birds. There is, in fact, a growing surplus, fueled at least in part by hobby breeders breeding their pets (especially in the cases of small birds). The rescues and ad sites are bursting at the seams.

 

[inquisitivefeathers]

There isn't likely to be a shortage of pet birds. There is, in fact, a growing surplus, fueled at least in part by hobby breeders breeding their pets (especially in the cases of small birds). The rescues and ad sites are bursting at the seams.

I hear that said a lot, but it seems like this surplus may be concentrated in some areas and not others?
I live in southern Indiana (zip code 47126, if you'd know any specific rescues in that area) and can't actually find any parrots for adoption that would suit me? I would be interested in getting a pionus, Senegal, etc- basically parrots on the smaller side that also aren't renowned for their noise-making (not that I mind a little bit of noise or anything, it's just a preference). Basically I'm not being picky about what I want.
I've checked Petfinder and the closest parrots are in Lexington Kentucky and are parakeets/budgies, and then the next closest after that is in Indianapolis and are large birds like amazons. All the bird rescues I know of are either on the east coast or on the west coast like California, none I know of are in the midwest in/near Indiana. Is it possible that this "pet bird overpopulation" issue is more exaggerated...?

 

[Bokkapooh]

Well there are handraised birds who are raised secluded from other birds. So it doesn't know its a bird. Then there are the ones who are handraised and up to adulthood have been around birds of their own species and they associate themselves to their species and their people. I think majority of birds are handraised In example #1. And stupid breeders place people-associated birds into breeding situations and many problems can occur, especially in species like cockatoos. Now I look at my Opa, U2(4y.o,.male) who was raised around cockatoos and many of his own species. He could become a breeder, as he associates himself with umbrella cockatoos yet he sees me apart of his flock.

Another way to get a tame baby is to co-parent the offspring. This is now a very popular method and slowly growing. You get a very tamed baby who behaves hand reared however without the behavioral problems that come from handreared birds.

 

[AmberMuffinz]

I hear that said a lot, but it seems like this surplus may be concentrated in some areas and not others?
I live in southern Indiana (zip code 47126, if you'd know any specific rescues in that area) and can't actually find any parrots for adoption that would suit me? I would be interested in getting a pionus, Senegal, etc- basically parrots on the smaller side that also aren't renowned for their noise-making (not that I mind a little bit of noise or anything, it's just a preference). Basically I'm not being picky about what I want.
I've checked Petfinder and the closest parrots are in Lexington Kentucky and are parakeets/budgies, and then the next closest after that is in Indianapolis and are large birds like amazons. All the bird rescues I know of are either on the east coast or on the west coast like California, none I know of are in the midwest in/near Indiana. Is it possible that this "pet bird overpopulation" issue is more exaggerated...?

Birds can be shipped around if you can't find a specific bird in your area that you have your heart set on. I think it is probably more concentrated in certain areas, plus some places lack the sanctuaries and rescues that other places have. I'm not sure if it's exaggerated though, as I see birds all the time on craigslist of all sizes and I always hear of rescues being way too full. Birds are fairly new to being owned as pets, it may just be that there is a lack of rescue sites in certain areas due to this reason. I do think that there are a lot more homeless birds though, it happens with every single pet we domesticate and breed. Dogs, cats, and exotic animals are all ending up in sanctuaries and are being abandoned all the time. The only exception I think are the more rare species of birds.

 

[wonderb]

I personally think it is somewhat problematic. A bird needs to know it is a bird IMO. I don't think I would buy a bird, particularly a large and long lived specie, that wasn't allowed to be fed by its parents for a few weeks. This to me is just as important as allowing it to fledge and wean when on its own terms, and raising them with other birds.

Some of the better breeders, for whom it is a labor of love, are allowing some babies to be raised by their parents. This cuts into their profit margin (untame birds that aren't even breeding age are certainly not money makers) but they do it anyway because they think it's important.

 

[Ziggymon]

It's not exaggerated. All of the rescues I know are stretched to their limits or beyond. Sure, there's not a bird rescue on every corner - it's expensive to run an avian rescue, and few people have the knowledge to do it well. As a matter of fact, few people have the knowledge, temperament and resources to be decent caregivers for birds, which is why so many birds are constantly being rehomed or just discarded.

 

[wonderb]

I didn't read the comments but wanted to add: It really isnt exaggerated. Especially for certain species like cockatoos, large macaws, male amazons, or even quakers and aratinga conures, rescues are full to the brim.

There are FOUR parrot rescues in the twin cities, which isn't a exactly a major metropolitan area.

 

[Holiday]

I hear that said a lot, but it seems like this surplus may be concentrated in some areas and not others?
I live in southern Indiana (zip code 47126, if you'd know any specific rescues in that area) and can't actually find any parrots for adoption that would suit me? I would be interested in getting a pionus, Senegal, etc- basically parrots on the smaller side that also aren't renowned for their noise-making (not that I mind a little bit of noise or anything, it's just a preference). Basically I'm not being picky about what I want.
I've checked Petfinder and the closest parrots are in Lexington Kentucky and are parakeets/budgies, and then the next closest after that is in Indianapolis and are large birds like amazons. All the bird rescues I know of are either on the east coast or on the west coast like California, none I know of are in the midwest in/near Indiana. Is it possible that this "pet bird overpopulation" issue is more exaggerated...?

I don't know what rescues there may be in your area. I don't have any reputable ones in my area, and yet most of my birds are rehomes, including an Illiger's macaw, which is not a terribly common species. Birdbreeders.com only lists a handful of breeders across the country. But, I only had to drive across town to pick him up. The fact that I found an Illiger's being rehomed in this area at all is pretty symptomatic of the situation, IMO. I think that, if you look around, you'll eventually find a rehome in nearly any species. For instance, after just a cursory look at the Hoobly ads in your state, here's a Meyer's in Aurora:

Sell or trade excellant talking meyers parrot in Aurora, Indiana

Don't know if you'd be interested in a Meyer's, or how far this is from you. But, if you keep checking Hoobly and Craigslist and Kijiji, you'll probably find something within a reasonable distance that would interest you.

 

[inquisitivefeathers]

I hope this thread hasn't reached its climax and won't receive any more replies from here. =( The second thing I dislike, when threads hit a climax and then stop. I haven't even gotten my questions answered!
It's interesting about the rescues. It seems to be more, "check classifieds and get a bird from a previous owner" rather than go to a specific rescue house/website. I never knew that hoobly existed, it's very helpful. I'd like to redirect the topic of rescuing though, since it's not answering my original question. Would be a great topic, though!

Is there any breeders on this forum that have handraised birds and have tried to use them as breeders?
Please tell me your experiences!
I appreciate the anecdotes some of you gave, by the way! Thanks for all your replies, and wishing you all well.

 

[Ziggymon]

I hope this thread hasn't reached its climax and won't receive any more replies from here. =( The second thing I dislike, when threads hit a climax and then stop. I haven't even gotten my questions answered!
Is there any breeders on this forum that have handraised birds and have tried to use them as breeders?

Threads often don't take the direction/provide the answers one expects/hopes for when one starts the thread. The trick is not to take it personally; often that occurs simply because no one has the information you're looking for. I am saying this only because it appears to be an issue for you, since you started the thread by commenting on your disappointment in threads you've started, and now you're commenting on it again.

 

[Ribbit21]

One of my pet sitting clients used to breed hyacinth macaws and cockatoos. All of her breeders where hand raised. She thought it was somewhat important that the parents where also handraised and tame, so that she could safely co-parent the babies. She said that having tame parents allowed the macaws to raise the babies for a longer period of time, while also allowing her to be hands on with the babies. She never had a parent reject or try to kill any babies.

I also know plenty of handraised cockatiels that have raised their own babies.

I really don't think parrots have been domesticated long enough to breed out their instinct to parent their own babies. In cases of parents killing or harming their own chicks I think it's more that we don't understand all the stresses involved in breeding birds and the triggers that might lead to harming their own chicks.

 

[GreyGirl]

Oooh very interesting topic!

My first Grey was with her parents till three weeks of age, before she was pulled and hand-fed. Now as a two year old, she assosciates with others of her species, but she is not the most independent bird. If she is out of her cage (and she does get plenty of out of cage time) she wants to be right in the middle of the action and gets in trouble if she isn't constantly being entertained. My other Grey had a similar situation, but is now a very independent little Grey who plays nicely by herself and loves to be with us when we invite her to. To me, she seems a happy medium. Now, the question that presents is how could two Greys with the same start in life end up so differently? Well of course there is the fact of the actual bird's personality, but beyond that what happened after they were removed from the nestbox seems key. Averi was raised by a hobby breeder and Averi was only his second clutch. She was constantly played with, stimulated, and fawned over by the breeder and her husband. Secondly, after I put my deposit down at four weeks, I was over there 5-6 days/week for two to three hours playing with her. On top of that, she has always been flighted so she has always been able to get where she wanted to when she wanted to. After coming home she has always had at least four hours of out of cage time a day. Matilda on the other hand was raised by a more experienced breeder who also raises other babies, and Tilda's clutch was not her only at the time. Her original owner visited on occasion. Then she went into home where she got out maybe an hour a day and sometimes not at all. She was also clipped after fledging and therefore now only flies when she REALLY wants something. So I point this all out because I think a lot more than a bird's time with their parents goes into raising a well adjusted bird.

As far as your question, I don't really know. A member of our positive reinforcement group is testing out the waters. She purchased two unrelated Greys that were hatched days apart. One breeder raised both of the birds (one male, one female) together. She is bonded with both, and they are bonded to one another (they have always been caged together). Her goal is to raise Grey babies that stay with their parents till weaned, but that are handled daily by humans, and that they witness their parent's willful interaction with her. They birds are just now reaching sexual maturity, but I am very intrigued by the idea, and am excited to see if they will produce. I personally think that co-parenting, where the birds are the main caretakers, and thus role models; is the ideal situation. I hope that one day becomes the normal, instead of the rare.

 

[GreyGirl]

I'm also in Indy and understand why you might feel that overpopulation isn't a problem here. There are not many established rescues around here. But if you check any re-home sites (craigslist, hoobly, ebayclassifieds) they are over run with unwanted birds. I think most of these birds end up on sites as opposed to rescue for a couple reasons. First many owners want to get some of their money back and typically surrendering your bird at a rescue isn't going to make you any money. Second, I know a lot of people want to select who their bird will go to. They want to to check the people out and make sure they are up to their standards. And third of course, is that there just aren't that many rescues set up in Indy.

 

[inquisitivefeathers]

Oooh very interesting topic! My first Grey was with her parents till three weeks of age, before she was pulled and hand-fed. Now as a two year old, she assosciates with others of her species, but she is not the most independent bird. If she is out of her cage (and she does get plenty of out of cage time) she wants to be right in the middle of the action and gets in trouble if she isn't constantly being entertained. My other Grey had a similar situation, but is now a very independent little Grey who plays nicely by herself and loves to be with us when we invite her to. To me, she seems a happy medium. Now, the question that presents is how could two Greys with the same start in life end up so differently? Well of course there is the fact of the actual bird's personality, but beyond that what happened after they were removed from the nestbox seems key. Averi was raised by a hobby breeder and Averi was only his second clutch. She was constantly played with, stimulated, and fawned over by the breeder and her husband. Secondly, after I put my deposit down at four weeks, I was over there 5-6 days/week for two to three hours playing with her. On top of that, she has always been flighted so she has always been able to get where she wanted to when she wanted to. After coming home she has always had at least four hours of out of cage time a day. Matilda on the other hand was raised by a more experienced breeder who also raises other babies, and Tilda's clutch was not her only at the time. Her original owner visited on occasion. Then she went into home where she got out maybe an hour a day and sometimes not at all. She was also clipped after fledging and therefore now only flies when she REALLY wants something. So I point this all out because I think a lot more than a bird's time with their parents goes into raising a well adjusted bird. As far as your question, I don't really know. A member of our positive reinforcement group is testing out the waters. She purchased two unrelated Greys that were hatched days apart. One breeder raised both of the birds (one male, one female) together. She is bonded with both, and they are bonded to one another (they have always been caged together). Her goal is to raise Grey babies that stay with their parents till weaned, but that are handled daily by humans, and that they witness their parent's willful interaction with her. They birds are just now reaching sexual maturity, but I am very intrigued by the idea, and am excited to see if they will produce. I personally think that co-parenting, where the birds are the main caretakers, and thus role models; is the ideal situation. I hope that one day becomes the normal, instead of the rare.

Thank you for the wonderful, enlightening post. I was reading an article on proaviculture about how it's not necessarily good to constantly fondle and handle still handfeeding babies because they need to simply "eat, sleep, and poop". This is evidence of that, I suppose. And it also makes me think- many endangered species of bird, in the conservation programs, have their first clutches removed to be handraised. During the handraising, though, the handfeeders are careful to spend a minimum of time with the babies- even sometimes going as far as to put a bird puppet of that species on their hand to feed them. The same thing, I suppose? So maybe there is hope for our handfed parrots. Do you really think it's important to clip after fledging, based on your experiences?

 

[BayuCah'ya]

I worked for a breeder for four years, handraising his babies. Most of his breeders birds were purchased from pet homes who didn't want their birds anymore. Additionally, there are a lot of bird clubs who provide "rescue", but then just use the "rescued" birds in their breeding programs. It's basically a way for them to get free breeder birds. We have/had a couple of those groups here in Austin. So I have personal, direct experience as well as a lot anecdotal evidence of pet birds becoming successful breeder birds. As someone else said earlier, usually when birds aren't breeding successfully it's because their needs aren't being met or they are stressed in some way or another. But I also am a huge fan of co-parenting. Phoebe Green Linden out in Santa Barbara co-parented her birds with great success.

As for clipping v. keeping the birds flighted, that is an often-heated debate in aviculture, and there are many people on this forum who successfully keep their birds clipped, and many others who keep them flighted. I personally keep my birds flighted, for many reasons which I won't go into here. If you're interested in reading more about it, though, we have an entire forum called "The Airport" about living with flighted birds.

Welcome to the Avenue, by the way.

 

[AmberMuffinz]

I think that even if you intend to keep a bird clipped that it is important to let them fledge and learn how to fly properly before doing so. I have heard that birds clipped early don't have the same kind of confidence as birds who were allowed to fledge. I think Zen was clipped young and was kept clipped for the ten years of his life before he came into my life. He is awful at flying and never even attempts to do so unless he's scared. Samirah on the other hand flew all over when I first got her and is a very confident young lady, even if her landing skills are not top notch. Neelix I know was allowed to fly for a little while, but he was clipped by his breeder. He will fly if he gets startled and he'll fly to me on command if I'm not too far away. He will, however, always fly to my aunt if she walks in the room. Even if she is further away than what he would fly to me normally.

With our cockatiel babies, we have always just let them go to homes fully flighted and given them a card of the bird shop to get their wings clipped if they chose to do so. We have only ever gotten one baby clipped before he went to his forever home and that was to my aunts boss. I think it really helps build character and confidence to let them fly plus it gives them an opportunity to learn some important flight skills. If a bird is kept flighted throughout it's life it can learn several things like flying downward, around corners, and landing successfully. Flying isn't a natural skill, it has to be mastered through experience. I think clipping or keeping flighted is as much a personal decision as a decision on what environment that bird is to be living in, but regardless of that I think every bird should be fledged properly and allowed to fly for at least two weeks before getting clipped.

I think the confidence thing can be seen too if you have birds who were allowed to fly and birds who were clipped early who are now both flighted. Some members have said that one of their birds will fly anywhere s/he wants when they want, but another one of their birds will not fly anywhere unless they REALLY REALLY want to or were startled.

 

[GreyGirl]

Thank you for the wonderful, enlightening post. I was reading an article on proaviculture about how it's not necessarily good to constantly fondle and handle still handfeeding babies because they need to simply "eat, sleep, and poop". This is evidence of that, I suppose. And it also makes me think- many endangered species of bird, in the conservation programs, have their first clutches removed to be handraised. During the handraising, though, the handfeeders are careful to spend a minimum of time with the babies- even sometimes going as far as to put a bird puppet of that species on their hand to feed them. The same thing, I suppose? So maybe there is hope for our handfed parrots. Do you really think it's important to clip after fledging, based on your experiences?

Now that's not necssarily what I am saying. While it's nice that Tilda will sit wherever you put her, I don't think this is fair to her. Not having the flying experience early on, I doubt she will ever fly like Averi does. Both my girls are fully flighted and always will be. That said, I think this greatly contributes to why she is the way she is. Often times I find her wanting to fly somewhere, but unlike Averi who will take off at a moment's notice, she does not have the confidence to do so. So instead she will busy herself playing with the toys she has available. Even though she now the ability to fly, she rarely does. Flying is a way of life for Averi, that it never will be for Matilda. In my opinion even birds that will eventually be clipped should be allowed to fly for months, now just "fledged" and clipped. They should also never be so severly clipped that they cannot glide to a controlled landing.

I think ideally a bird that has taught to play independently and be a bird, can be flighted and maintain the independence that I admire in Tilda. They just need not be coddled so much as a baby that they don't know how to entertain themselves and they also need to be praised profusely when they are playing independently outside of the cage from an early age.

I saw a baby special on T.V. about endangered species that featured the Spix macaw. They followed similar protocol to what you are describing. The baby was the only in the clutch and she had little contact with the handfeeder, other than during feeding times. Once she was fully feathered she was immediately introduced to another female Spix whom she learned the ropes from, then later released in an aviary with a dozen or so other Spix. The bird allowed humans to do rountine vet care on her months later, but she also behaved like a wild bird. She was going into a breeding program.