captive breeding

[rikkitikki]

Well... I was going to post this on a thread talking about a hybrid bird, but I went off on a tangent and decided it really doesn't belong there.
So - here's my reply, the original post really isn't needed to see where I'm going with this, and I'm interested to see what others' take on this is:


I hate the hybridization game too, however, to play devil's advocate...
Ever wonder how many of the different dog breeds out there were through man's own doing? If it holds true that dogs descended from the wolf, then the answer would be all of them! Some of them are new enough breeds that our grand/parents may remember them coming about - ie doberman pinschers in the 1890's created by a tax collector (Dobermann) to protect him as he went out collecting tax money. There is a fascinating study on the silver fox in Russia on how domestication affect these animals. Monday Pets: The Russian Fox Study : The Thoughtful Animal In it, the foxes were bred for temperament and what surprisingly followed is that they started looking more like domestic dogs!! Anyway, if birds are bred for temperament, then I wonder if we'll eventually start to see changes in their physical makeup? I'll leave it at that, just something to think about.

So I really didn't get into hybridization (thankfully ), but I do wonder for one: Are bird breeders breeding for temperament? and two: if you are breeding for good temperaments, have you noticed, or do you believe it may domesticate these birds in other ways (ie - tone down their flight/fight response some, perhaps birds growing in shorter flight feathers, etc). It would be really interesting to see any potential changes now that birds are soley captive bred - or at least mostly captive bred

 

[srtiels]

(ie - tone down their flight/fight response some, perhaps birds growing in shorter flight feathers, etc)
---------------------------------
If it is going to be something that is detrimental to the fight/flight responce, whether captive bred or wild I suspect the body is hard wired not to do such changes.

with tiels there are many mutations developed from the normal grey cockatiel. Now you can find a various array of color mutations...BUT the one thing that has NEVER been changed has been the white wing bar on a tiel. This wing bar is similar to the white tail on a deer...and I suspect that it has something to do with the fight/flight responce to danger, and is hardwired into the bird not to be genetically modified.

 

[lotus15]

I don't think it's terribly common, to be honest, but I do know that my breeder does take temperament into consideration. She used to breed blue-headed pionus but her male had a very aggressive personality so she decided to stop breeding them.

 

[srtiels]

Temperment and disposition are an inherited traits. Also selective breeding for excellent conformation, good feather quality, strong tail feathers not subject to breakage or fraying are also inheritable. Also selective breeding can also breed out over a couple generations undesirable traits, such as baldness with some mutations. How the wings are crossed, poor confirmation such as a hunged tail. Poor parenting skills.

Much of the visual look to a bird is inheritable.

 

[rikkitikki]

Very interesting. It's scary and interesting at the same time how much we can play gods to the pets we so adore...

 

[srtiels]

Very interesting. It's scary and interesting at the same time how much we can play gods to the pets we so adore...
--------------------------------------------------

Can you clarify your comment? What is so scary in selectively breeding to bring out the positive traits in a bird?

I have to add though that some breeders can go to extremes, and I have found this to be with many show tiels. breeding for bigger eyes has resulted in an inherited fault of the lopwer eyelids drooping, and sadly when this trait appears the eyes are more susceptable to eye irratations and infections. And it take 2-3 generations to breed this fault out of a line. Another fault is breeding for larger head size. This can contribute to a higher incidence of egg binding or impactions, or worse yet the baby is doomed because the larger head makes it harder to turn in the egg to successfully hatch. Health issues such as resistant to such disease such as Giardia are impaired. With males there can be a higher incidence of hypocalcemia and seizure with some color mutations or split.

Miny you this is with tiel, which I have experience with,...and can't answer in regards to ther species of birds.

 

[rikkitikki]

Just the simple fact that we have the ability to selectively breed. I think it's a great thing that we can do it, it just amazes me in how evolved a species we are that we can affect the outcome of another and know what the effects of our selective breeding will have on another species. Simply amazing.

Can you clarify your comment? What is so scary in selectively breeding to bring out the positive traits in a bird?

 

[Holiday]

Well... I was going to post this on a thread talking about a hybrid bird, but I went off on a tangent and decided it really doesn't belong there.
So - here's my reply, the original post really isn't needed to see where I'm going with this, and I'm interested to see what others' take on this is:


I hate the hybridization game too, however, to play devil's advocate...
Ever wonder how many of the different dog breeds out there were through man's own doing? If it holds true that dogs descended from the wolf, then the answer would be all of them! Some of them are new enough breeds that our grand/parents may remember them coming about - ie doberman pinschers in the 1890's created by a tax collector (Dobermann) to protect him as he went out collecting tax money. There is a fascinating study on the silver fox in Russia on how domestication affect these animals. Monday Pets: The Russian Fox Study : The Thoughtful Animal In it, the foxes were bred for temperament and what surprisingly followed is that they started looking more like domestic dogs!! Anyway, if birds are bred for temperament, then I wonder if we'll eventually start to see changes in their physical makeup? I'll leave it at that, just something to think about.

So I really didn't get into hybridization (thankfully ), but I do wonder for one: Are bird breeders breeding for temperament? and two: if you are breeding for good temperaments, have you noticed, or do you believe it may domesticate these birds in other ways (ie - tone down their flight/fight response some, perhaps birds growing in shorter flight feathers, etc). It would be really interesting to see any potential changes now that birds are soley captive bred - or at least mostly captive bred

The anti-breeding side of the argument goes something like this: Parrots, unlike dogs, are wild animals, better kept as close to the way nature made them as possible, especially since some (like Red-front macaws) are genuinely endangered in the wild. People don't mind dog breeds because dogs are domestic, but parrots are a different story. Personally, I think the more small, common, and/or "domesticated" the bird, the less this argument holds water. It makes total sense with a Hyacinth macaw. It makes less sense with a budgie.

And, yes, I think physical changes would and do definitely occur. Look at the English Budgie vs. the wild version...

Some breeders do breed for temperament. But, there's another and darker side to captive breeding: a lot of birds that are unsuited to be "pets" end up going into the breeding pool, while the more well-adapted end up being pets and taken out of the breeding pool. This means that the longer this goes on, the less "pet quality" there will be. This might particularly be true of the larger, more dangerous birds, like big cockatoos. People like Steve Hartman, of Hartman Aviary, have noted this, though, and do try to work with the sweetest tempered birds for their breeding programs:

Consider this: Most breeders breed parrots that had to be given up by their owners. The reasons are usually because of aggression, excessive noise, feather mutilation or excessive egg laying. All four of these behaviors are the result of a genetic predisposition for the behavior and are not a behavior you would choose to deal with. Breeders are usually quick to qualify the behavior as a result of poor housing conditions, or abuse. Unfortunately the genetics behind these behaviors are often passed on to the next generation, the one you are taking home.
The Parrot University at Hartman Aviary
The Parrot University at Hartman Aviary

 

[srtiels]

better kept as close to the way nature made them as possible, especially since some (like Red-front macaws) are genuinely endangered in the wild.
--------------------------------
There are many mousebird breeders that are now leaning wotwards not selling mousebirds as pets, though they are not endangered in their native land. The reason why is that the species is a short lived species (7-12 yrs., depending on care) and if they go to a pet home it is the end of the line. Forunitely importing is still available with softbill species of birds, which helps to replentish the captive gene pools. Also since there are so few breeders, care has to be taken to research backggrounds on the birds so that unrelated pairing can be made.

Unfortunately the genetics behind these behaviors are often passed on to the next generation, the one you are taking home.

I have found this is very true with cockatiels. And even more so, I discovered that parent raised offspring from pairs that were bred over several generations for good tempermant, wound up with very docile personalities, if handled from day one to weaning while with the parents. some parent raised birds were actually tamer and sweeter than handfeds.

 

[rikkitikki]

Whoa, thanks for the links Holiday, I'm about to go look at more areas of the site now
I see your point on smaller/more common birds vs larger in the pet trade, and I don't see any reason to argue (nor do I have anything to argue against) that point.
So much to learn, sometimes I wish I weren't as interested as I am about animals and everything that goes into them, lol.

 

[Holiday]

sometimes I wish I weren't as interested as I am about animals and everything that goes into them, lol.

Me too!! I might have tenure by now