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B&G Macaw Mutations

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jmfleish

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Yes, but mutations are almost always recessive which is why we don't see them very often. I just read from a breeder recently exactly how they get the recessive mutations to come about in captivity with "Line breeding" and it's really nasty stuff.
 

Holiday

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I find it interesting that there's so much resistance to a natural mutation. The recipe for these color patterns were present in the DNA naturally. These sorts of things don't always just pop up overnight, either, you know; sometimes they are natural variants that birds carry in their genes for generations, a family legacy, if you will. These kinds of variations can actually be healthy and can be beneficial in the wild under certain conditions--sometimes a variant in color pattern or size will also affect something else, like disease resistance. For example, dwarfism has been shown to improve Marek's disease resistance in poultry. So, even a gene that might seem detrimental can be a positive variant under certain conditions, like drought or plague. Nature works in mysterious ways.

As for inbreeding to produce more specimens in captivity, what Monica says is correct. It is not automatically necessary to inbreed, especially if the variation is something that crops up in more than one specimen from time to time--and given the commonality of genes that dilute color or produce an alternate pattern in birds (this phenomenon is VERY common), I'd think it would not be too difficult to reproduce with only distantly related or unrelated individuals. And, by the way, just FYI, short-term inbreeding is not nearly as detrimental in birds as in mammals anyway. They naturally have a higher number of chromosomes (budgies, for instance, have, I think, some 31 pairs whereas humans only have 23) and more genetic variation. It is not the same as inbreeding a line of, say, dogs. By saying this, I am NOT advocating inbreeding; I'm just pointing out that a lot of our negative reaction to it comes from our experience with mammals, and it's not quite the same in birds.
 

jmfleish

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I don't have any problems with natural mutations and agree that this is part of natural selection and evolution. I do have a problem with artificial production of mutations in captivity which is generally how we get the mutations that we are seeing crop up so much today in our captively bred birds.
 

allison

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I agree 100% with Jen. I think there are correct ways and incorrect ways to go about breeding for mutations. Most do it incorrectly.
As far as hybridizing some hybrids are healthier than full blooded species. My friend's Harlequin has had less problems than her B&G and is very healthy. I'm sure the B&G came from a not so good breeder because he is stunted in growth and wasn't properly socialized or fledged. So I think everything depends on the breeder and how they pair up birds and raise babies.
 

jmfleish

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You know, the hybrid hypothesis about some hybrids being healthier than others really is something vets are starting to see. Sometimes the offspring truly do seem to get the best of both parents. A year ago, I helped in a situation with a Ruby Macaw who had led a horrible life. We took her to the vet after not being seen for quite a few years and outside in Chicago winters and summers supposedly. Her diet was a mess and she was plucked everywhere. Just by looking at her and knowing her background for the last three years, we all expected her bloodwork to be a mess, especially the resident at the UW who saw her. We were stunned to find that she was as healthy as a horse. Absolutely nothing wrong with her. The vet said they tend to see that in a lot of hybrids and the only thing they can come up with is that their hybrid status makes them stronger physically then their purebred parents. I found it to be very interesting.
 

Holiday

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You know, the hybrid hypothesis about some hybrids being healthier than others really is something vets are starting to see. Sometimes the offspring truly do seem to get the best of both parents. A year ago, I helped in a situation with a Ruby Macaw who had led a horrible life. We took her to the vet after not being seen for quite a few years and outside in Chicago winters and summers supposedly. Her diet was a mess and she was plucked everywhere. Just by looking at her and knowing her background for the last three years, we all expected her bloodwork to be a mess, especially the resident at the UW who saw her. We were stunned to find that she was as healthy as a horse. Absolutely nothing wrong with her. The vet said they tend to see that in a lot of hybrids and the only thing they can come up with is that their hybrid status makes them stronger physically then their purebred parents. I found it to be very interesting.
Yes, this is called "hybrid vigor," but it doesn't always work this way. There is also a negative outcome possible when crossing unlike individuals, which is called "outbreeding depression."
 

Riley's mom

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You know, the hybrid hypothesis about some hybrids being healthier than others really is something vets are starting to see. Sometimes the offspring truly do seem to get the best of both parents. A year ago, I helped in a situation with a Ruby Macaw who had led a horrible life. We took her to the vet after not being seen for quite a few years and outside in Chicago winters and summers supposedly. Her diet was a mess and she was plucked everywhere. Just by looking at her and knowing her background for the last three years, we all expected her bloodwork to be a mess, especially the resident at the UW who saw her. We were stunned to find that she was as healthy as a horse. Absolutely nothing wrong with her. The vet said they tend to see that in a lot of hybrids and the only thing they can come up with is that their hybrid status makes them stronger physically then their purebred parents. I found it to be very interesting.

Your vet is correct. We see it ourselves at work. The hybrids do appear healthier.
 

Arachloroptera

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I thought I would throw in my two cents on this subject.... Hybridizing sometimes produces very beautiful macaws and somtimes produces very unappealing macaws (like Hyacinth hybrids IMO) I believe that a little hybridizing and a little mutation production has no ill effects to the macaw species we have in captivity. It is not like budgies or greencheeks that will reproduce in one year which incourages breeders to specialize in the mutations. Macaws take many years to reproduce successfuly and there are very few people willing to work 30 years to line breed for a certain color mutation. Breeders are much happier breeding normal colors in the case of macaws. For this reason viable normal colors will remain strong IMO with macaws. Also remember that none of the birds produced in captivity will ever be returned to the wild. Researchers are having a hard enough time releasing wild birds raised in their own country back into the wild. Hybrids are neat but I still think most people like the true colors as much or more.
 

Monica

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Yes, there are a lot of recessive mutations. There are also a lot of other non-recessive mutations... Here's a list with the help of Gencalc...


Dominant Mutations
  • Dark Factor
  • Grey
  • Pallid
  • Clearwing
  • Clearbody
Recessive Mutations
  • Saddleback
  • Blue
  • Brownwing
  • Dilute
  • Faded
  • Blackface
  • NSL Ino
  • Recessive Fallow
  • Australian Grey
  • English Grey
  • Recessive Pied
  • Dark Eyed Clear
  • Melanistic
Sex-Linked Mutations
  • Cinnamon
  • Ino
  • Opaline
  • Slate
  • Yellow-cheek
Co-Dominant Mutations
  • Par-Blue/Turquoise
  • Yellowface
  • Goldenface
  • Greywing
  • Fallow
Incomplete Dominant
  • Spangle
  • Darkwing
  • Dutch Pied
  • Danish Pied
  • Violet
  • Dominant Silver
  • Dark
  • Platinum
I do find it interesting that animals will naturally "line breed" on their own, although there are quite a few people who get quite "puffy" when breeders do it. The cheetah species is a good example, they have low genetic variability, as explained in the below articles.
Cheetah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cheating cheetahs prosper
 

Anne & Gang

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wowwwwwwwwww I had no idea there were so many different kinds..
 

Monica

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Most of the list of mutations in my last post came from budgie mutations.... which probably have the largest variety of mutations known within parrots. After all, they are easy to breed, breed quickly/early on, so these mutations can be reproduced quickly and efficiently... hence there's not so many mutations in the larger species.
 

jmfleish

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Most of the list of mutations in my last post came from budgie mutations.... which probably have the largest variety of mutations known within parrots. After all, they are easy to breed, breed quickly/early on, so these mutations can be reproduced quickly and efficiently... hence there's not so many mutations in the larger species.
And yet the budgie color we see almost exclusively in the wild is green...
 

Monica

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And yet the budgie color we see almost exclusively in the wild is green...
I was not speaking about wild budgies... but if you want to speak of "abnormal" creatures living in the wild...

Well, what about rock doves, aka city pigeons? Have you ever seen the variety of colors in these guys? They certainly aren't somebodies pets... and they are thriving.
Feral Rock Pigeon (Count them for me) on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Pigeon on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I look like a roasted squab... on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
The bread hunters.... on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Beach doves: on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
bird of pray on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Mates on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Leonardo on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Pigeon Campfire on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Pigeon Tourist on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


Or would you rather speak about the Adelaide Rosella, a natural hybrid between the Crimson and Yellow Rosellas?
Adelaide Rosella on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Tasty Treat on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Adelaide Rosella on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Adelaide rosella on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
IMGP4841 - Adelaide Rosella on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Uni life on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Adelaide rosella on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
IMG_5454s_1 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Or would you like to speak about some of the other naturally occurring hybrids out there that are surviving?
hybrid Little x Long-billed Corella (young&parent)6-01 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
hybrid Little x Long-billed Corella (young)26-02 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Scaly X Rainbow Lorikeet? on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Rainbow X Scaly X Musk Lorikeet Hybrid on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Rainbow X Scaly X Musk Lorikeet Hybrid on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


Although not mutations, natural hybrids in the wild are surviving, and they are reproducing. And they are abnormalities.


Natural hybrids are occurring far more frequently than many people believe. We are still discovering them! Not too long ago (April 2010, to be exact), a 2nd generation hybrid of a grizzly bear x polar bear was discovered, after being shot. April of 2006, a first generation hybrid was also found and shot. Both hunters thought they were killing polar bears until DNA testing confirmed otherwise.
Grizzly?polar bear hybrid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And speaking of other natural mutations, it is written that the blue yellow naped amazon is a naturally occurring mutation.
Blue Mutation Yellow-Naped Amazon | Voren's Aviaries Inc

To further that, yellow tailed black cockatoo's have a naturally occurring pied mutation... also wild.
http://www.naturefocus.com.au/images/yellow-tailed_black-cockatoo.jpg

Although most mutations in wild parrots aren't common, hybridization amongst wild parrots is pretty common (most particularly, but not exclusively, in areas where these species do not naturally occur)
 
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