At wits end......

[Kimba]

He is acting like a Vasa "Raptor".....seriously, is the weather there colder or is there less moisture in the air? How is he with toys lately? Any food changes? Maybe this is just some type of behavior you will just have to ride out with him. Perhaps it's a mood that is taking a while to overcome on his part.

yup it's winter here and freezing, the toys are fine the wall and us are not.

last year I tried helping him by "teaching" him to hunt cheeze its. It kinda worked, but not really. I would hold a cheeze it in the air and he would swoop by and snatch it out of my hand. But I dismissed doing this because I realized that he did not have any form of animal protein in about 3 weeks. Knowing no protein = aggressive vasa.....I feed him eggs for 3 days striaght, and he turned back into a good bird. This year I've upped the protein already, so that is not it.

Anybody know how to train parrot to hunt? lol seriously thou..

the fly by bite i've always look at as some sort of hunting, he grabs with his feet and stabs with beak. But thats action is rare, and occurs more when he doesn't have enough protein. I didn't connect the two for hunting because of the lack of flight while on your shoulder, and preening. And thought that the fly by bite this year was just an extension of the should bite behavior. perhaps it is the other way around. The fly by head hunting and extended t o include should sitting. great.

 

[Holiday]

Holiday and Southern birds.....I think you are CORRECT! I've been brainstorming on another board as well and thinking hard on everyones theory's. this is the sentence that I think ties it all together for me:
"Sounds almost like a game to me. He waits for your back to be turned, or for you to be doing something else, and then he strikes."

Because now that i think on it, this is also the same action he does when playing. It's aggressive show off play. only he attacks the wall. he squawks, lunges at the wall with wings flapping vigorously (also mimics a kill, little raptor) ........he also squawks and flaps his wings this way when the bite happens....I've never realized this before! It is the same action, mood, and body language. hmmmmm......my little hunter

What's the consensus on the theory?

and what are every bodies ideas on how to deal with this then?

clipping works but that is a temporary fix, and in IMO that will not do, as it doesn't fix the problem it makes it temporarily go away.

hats would work to break the habit, but I fear the same will happen as did with the use of the towels.

Waving our hands in the air helps but comes with a price, confusion from Eve as to why we no longer want him, and we would accidentally training be him to not come to us. This contradicts his flight training.

???

If this is hard-wired behavior, I think you need to work with it rather than against it. IMO he needs something to hunt, a new game that involves stalking something (a windup toy mouse? Heck, I don't know what they hunt in the wild ) Anyway, I'd say the behavior needs to be channelled in a more benign direction, if possible.

 

[Kimba]

read the above post! we posted at the same time. I need a better way to train him to hunt. In the wild they hunt lizards, and small birds. When I had my painted conure, eve once snatch my poor conure right out for the air. Crayon my painted conure was fine, but they were never out together agian.

 

[Holiday]

In the wild they hunt lizards, and small birds. .

Well, small birds are out How does one approximate a moving lizard They do make those life-like lizard toys....

Maybe you could teach him to "fetch the lizard?"

 

[Kimba]

he will attack stuffed animals, he hates them. He once rolled around on the floor beating the snot out of a stuffed loon, he would bite the loon and the loon would make noise, and he would attack harder. Funny to watch. But he would only attack it if it was between me and him. maybe I should get a small stuffed lizard on a string?

If that works......well I'm gonna have to get a video of it! lol and figure out how to allow him to hunt when the urge hits him, and not when I play with him, I think I (and everyone else and the cats) need to be removed form the menu, and I think that is best done by us not having anything to do with the hunt.

hmmm....not easy

 

[Kimba]

I'm going with hunting.....this is what one of my vasa friends has to say.....

Could it be a hunting thing? I think it would be normal for a predator to wait until he has singled out a prey before attacking. Since there is no active chasing, he is possibly waiting for this prey to be alone. I am thinking of like Raptors, they do not attack into a flock, they single out one that is slower or try to get him away from the flock. Attacking into a flock can even be dangerous for the Raptor at such high speeds.

Vasa eat smaller birds, right? If I am remembering correctly. So, maybe his waiting to be alone has something to do with singling out prey.

Computer, exiting room, places where the person has their back turned to him and is self absorbed in what they are doing (perfect time to attack).

When he attacks your friends over you, are your friends the ones remaining immobile (at the computer), while you are the one exiting? Maybe that has something to do with it, why attack the moving target when you have one sitting in front of you. Does he attack a friend when they leave the room too?

Could he be seeing you as his flock-bro? Don't know how else to put it. But you probably know what I mean, when the males stay in a group. Maybe he wants it all for himself and is waiting to be alone? Maybe they wait to be alone before going after prey to protect their catch from others? Just brainstorming here, I would think the alone part would have more to do with singling out prey, but this came to mind too.

Places where he is less comforable. I know Vasas do not form a territory, but do they have a certain area where they roost, that they stay around? Do they leave this place to hunt? Would hunting around their roosing/nesting sites attract maybe other predators or would there be a reason for not huning around the nesting/roosting site. Maybe that has something to do with why he only hunts in certain rooms (I understood by your post that it is not where his cage is). I don't know. Just brainstorming before my coffee.

The spoon. Normal for an any animal to attack when it feels threatened/scared/uneasy, to whatever degree. Since he is a bird that hunts like a Raptor, I think we can expect him to also attack in such a way (fear response, playing, etc) even if it is not in a hunting context. I mean like, we can't expect him to react to a threat exactly like a Grey or another bird would.

And Yes my friend and his father are always immobile at the time of the attacks!
Any raptor people here willing to lend a hand on how to train a parrot/wanna be raptor to hunt?

 

[Lara Joseph]

Ok a lot to tell here so grab some coffee....

I used to do a lot of behavior work with parrots in NYC,(in home consults, rehabs from abuse, lectures....) so I am no stranger to the subtitles of avian behavior. Eve has me stumped. So I need some advice, as I fear I might be to close to the situation to see what is going on. Eve is about to start his breeding season. (For those of you who are adept at behavior, if you have not read my vasa breeding behavior research please see google link in my sig. I say this as vasa's are different in terms of behavior from of other parrots.)

Now every year some things change and I am used to this and I find it exciting to see what gonna happen every year. Well, last year Eve started head hunting, and I had realized that his protein intake was too low, the need elevates before and during breeding season. And vasa's will naturally hunt for their protein and have a habit of becoming aggressive in captivity if they do not get enough protein. This year I have made certain he has gotten the right amount, so the protein factor in terms of behavior is out as for as explanations go. As the rest of his moods are fine.

Over the past 2-3 years eve has developed the habit of biting the back of peoples necks. Sometimes it is a fly by bite, or while he is taking off from your shoulder. The one thing that I THOUGHT was the trigger for this behavior, the computer screen, is definitely not the main trigger. Eve primarily does this when you are sitting at the computer. And the behavior started when eve used to sit on the back of the chair while my mother was on the computer playing her game. But the game would make scary noises, and it triggered eve to bite her neck or stab her head with the tip of the beak. Which actually hurts more. She then quickly developed a hatred for my mother, and would snatch spoons out of my moms hands when my mother would try to make her tea. Eve would swoop down and snatch the spoon and fly away with it. Poor mom had to struggle to have her tea. lol When I moved back out of my mothers place I figured Eve would be fine, since my mother, (new trigger) was no longer in Eves life. Eve has since transposed this aggressive behavior to my friend who lives with me. Only now it seems to be random. Which I know it can not be, Birds always do what they do for a reason, and it is us that is sometimes unable to pick up on things.

Eve even did a fly by bite on the back of my neck when I walked out of the room yesterday. He flyies and bounces off of your neck and at the same time manages to sneak in a bite. Now this could be a habit gone wild. Or there could be triggers that I am not seeing. This is where I need some help.

Here is what I have observed.....

1 Eve knows it is wrong as He knows he gets a time out for the behavior and tries his hardest to "evade capture" after the bite.

2 the computer is still a major trigger, I think the screen irritates him and he reacts

3 Walking out of the room or walking away from Eve can also provoke this behavior, although this only happens upstairs where is is not entirely comfortable, or in the kitchen. (yes when you are holding a spoon!)

4 This seems to happen to my friend only when I leave the room. Now my friend is more than capable of handling Eve, He is Poe's owner and has lived with Eve for the past 10 years, with the exception of me living back home to recover from my illness. He can also make eve play dead bird on his back, so eve is more than comfortable with my friend.

5 this behavior happens no where else in the house, not in the bird room, or on stands, or the living room, so territorial behavior is out, and vasa's are not territorial by nature.....

6 there is also hormonal component as this also only happens right before and during breeding season. Sometimes but not always it appears as a hormonal surge, in which case Eve has no control over his actions.

7 the ACTION of the behavior does mimic hunting (grab with feet and bite) , although that does not seem to be the behavior expressed given the above observations.

??????????????

this is what I know, and every year it gets to the point that I have to clip eve right before he moults as that is the time when the behavior is the worst. Luckily the clip only lasts for 4 weeks, after which Eve is fine.


I can think of several things going on, like habitual biting that has been transformed into the way he says he is uncomfortable. Eve however is not a biter. Eve never ever bites a soul in any other circumstance but this.

It could be nothing more than a hormonal surge that triggers his hunting instinct. But why then only in certain rooms?

I need ideas as to what is going on other than my own and some ideas on working with this to resolve the issue. I feel I am too close to the situation, to be able see clearly, I am objective but I might not be seeing the triggers correctly.

Hi Kimba. I hope I'm not too late in responding to this or bringing up an old thread in which you may already have a resolution. I just read your thread and wanted to offer some suggestions in which work very well with me when training birds, especially ones in which have been labeled as aggressive. Some of my most favorite birds to work with are those that are labeled as aggressive. Their histories of their negative behaviors being knowingly or unknowingly reinforced cause me to pay so so close attention to all the fine details and rebuild that communication highway. A line of communication is exactly how I look at it too.

I also know what it means to be too close to a situation in which you need a new pair of eyes.

It sounds like the trigger of Eve exhibiting this behavior of biting the backs of necks is you walking out of the room. Maybe not every time but it seems like this is a time when it is likely to happen and in this one room in particular. Did I read that correctly?

I work with a couple of birds like this currently. Well, they don't bite the backs of necks but if you give them the chance they will. One thing I do with these almost immediately is target train them and this can happen inside the cage or outside in the room in which the biting is most likely to happen. It's a way to focus their attention to an object and comes in very handy when this negative behavior is likely to occur. The more consistent you are with training it and then delivering a highly valued reinforcer (food or not) the more the association of you walking out of the room becoming a time when Eve gets a reward for targeting vs. biting the back of someone's neck.

Not necessarily for you, but for all others that may be reading this thread. Let me explain what I mean by targeting. Targeting is when you request a bird to touch an object (the target) with a certain body part. For example, one bird in which I have to keep a close eye one while we work on our relationship, I have trained her to touch her beak to my right index finger. We've come a long way and when I ask "touch?" and hold our my right index finger, she will walk away from anything (like my arm in which she may bite if she gets too close) and touch my right index finger and will wait for her reward. I have been working with her very consistently that when I think the chances are likely she may bite, I'll say "touch" and cue her to her perch. She'll then walk to her perch and touch my finger. I then bridge or reward. Bridging is a word or sound delivered, I say "Good", that lets them know they have completed a behavior and the reward will be coming.

This training with Eve can start at any time Kimba. I would start it when you guys are just sitting down and spending quality time together. I would work toward getting him to target something that way, when you get up to leave this particular room, who ever is the one getting bit can give him the cue to target while you walk out of the room. You could practice this throughout the day even if there is someone else in the room or not. Your mom could start with the targeting when she making tea too. So "before" Eve goes to attack your mother, you mother can give the cue to target the object and make sure that reward is there, handy, and most of all consistent. Over time and through consistency, Eve will then see the times you leave the room or the times your mom is stirring her tea as her cue to target to earn that highly valued reward that he is receiving at no other time but these targeting times.

Does this help in giving you some extra ideas?

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Hi Kimba. I hope I'm not too late in responding to this or bringing up an old thread in which you may already have a resolution. I just read your thread and wanted to offer some suggestions in which work very well with me when training birds, especially ones in which have been labeled as aggressive. Some of my most favorite birds to work with are those that are labeled as aggressive. Their histories of their negative behaviors being knowingly or unknowingly reinforced cause me to pay so so close attention to all the fine details and rebuild that communication highway. A line of communication is exactly how I look at it too.

I also know what it means to be too close to a situation in which you need a new pair of eyes.

It sounds like the trigger of Eve exhibiting this behavior of biting the backs of necks is you walking out of the room. Maybe not every time but it seems like this is a time when it is likely to happen and in this one room in particular. Did I read that correctly?

I work with a couple of birds like this currently. Well, they don't bite the backs of necks but if you give them the chance they will. One thing I do with these almost immediately is target train them and this can happen inside the cage or outside in the room in which the biting is most likely to happen. It's a way to focus their attention to an object and comes in very handy when this negative behavior is likely to occur. The more consistent you are with training it and then delivering a highly valued reinforcer (food or not) the more the association of you walking out of the room becoming a time when Eve gets a reward for targeting vs. biting the back of someone's neck.

Not necessarily for you, but for all others that may be reading this thread. Let me explain what I mean by targeting. Targeting is when you request a bird to touch an object (the target) with a certain body part. For example, one bird in which I have to keep a close eye one while we work on our relationship, I have trained her to touch her beak to my right index finger. We've come a long way and when I ask "touch?" and hold our my right index finger, she will walk away from anything (like my arm in which she may bite if she gets too close) and touch my right index finger and will wait for her reward. I have been working with her very consistently that when I think the chances are likely she may bite, I'll say "touch" and cue her to her perch. She'll then walk to her perch and touch my finger. I then bridge or reward. Bridging is a word or sound delivered, I say "Good", that lets them know they have completed a behavior and the reward will be coming.

This training with Eve can start at any time Kimba. I would start it when you guys are just sitting down and spending quality time together. I would work toward getting him to target something that way, when you get up to leave this particular room, who ever is the one getting bit can give him the cue to target while you walk out of the room. You could practice this throughout the day even if there is someone else in the room or not. Your mom could start with the targeting when she making tea too. So "before" Eve goes to attack your mother, you mother can give the cue to target the object and make sure that reward is there, handy, and most of all consistent. Over time and through consistency, Eve will then see the times you leave the room or the times your mom is stirring her tea as her cue to target to earn that highly valued reward that he is receiving at no other time but these targeting times.

Does this help in giving you some extra ideas?

That's brilliant.

 

[Kimba]

that might very well be a great method that I could transform into a hunt. Eve is not aggressive at all, never has been (well except when protien levels are low, and now that i know this is hunting related and not aggression) Vasa's hunt, thats not aggressive it's a way to eat. but this targeting method might be able to be transformed into hunting very easily.
I contacted my raptor friend and animal cop for ideas.....he couldn't offer much help since he uses a work for food hunting method. Hunger = hunting can't do that with a vasa as they are seed and fruit predators first, hunters second.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

that might very well be a great method that I could transform into a hunt. Eve is not aggressive at all, never has been, but vasa's hunt. Thats not aggressive, it's a way to eat. but this targeting method might be able to be transformed into hunting very easily.
I contacted my raptor friend and animal cop for ideas.....he couldn't offer much help since he uses a work for food hunting method. Hunger = hunting can't do that with a vasa as they are seed and fruit predators first, hunters second.

If I were trying to train hunting then I would definitely start with targeting, however, you could train the targeting or station training and not have to worry about the hunt training if it went as planned.....

 

[Kimba]

well this morning armed with bite sized pieces of almonds.....

I've heard vasa's are extremely quick at picking things up. I know of one vasa who can learn new tricks via clicker training in about 10 minutes and doesn't lose what he has learned. He can do his colors, string breads on and off thin rope, hi five, turin around in a circle........

So I just finished a ten minute training session with eve...

I use a wadded up piece of paper an had him touch it to his beak, that was easy, we moved on to flying over to me to touch the paper and get his treat.That was fine as well, although excitement was starting to get the best of him and he started dancing and doing flips on his stand.

We moved over to the top of his cage. I toss the paper towards the other end of the the top of the cage, eve went after it, touched it, and got treated.

A few minutes later he was chasing the paper across the cage instead of walking over to it and touching it. when he got over to the paper he lunged at it. He got treated. The next time he lunged at the paper, picked it up and began to shake it violently! Like a kill!

This will work I think, if I can get him to fly after it in the air and such.Than I am thinking about hanging a piece of paper or similar object from the ceiling so that when the mood strikes, eve can hunt at will in the air without human help. Thus removing me from the hunt. So that is my plan. we shall see. How does this sound?

The one draw back I am seeing is after Eve killed the paper, it that he went into a feeding frenzy towards me. The hunt provoked his hormones to have to feed me. (this would make a but load of sense since during breeding season females do not under any circumstances feed themselves and are completely depend on their harem of males for food) I than played and wrestled with him and got him to calm down. That might sound like a bad idea, as wrestling, snuggling and such is not recommended as it also insights hormonal behavior, but for a vasa this is different. This type of play and such is fine and does not insight hormones, it is just play to them and helps to redirect their behavior.

Thank you for your ideas!!!! I will keep this thread up to document eve progress, maybe even get a video out if it!

 

[piercesdesigns]

Wow, all I have to say is Vasa's are completely fascinating and intriguing.

 

[Kimba]

For anybody who is interested here is Vinnie, he is great! I know him and his owner, she does wonders with him and training.....

YouTube - Working with Vinnie
YouTube - Vinnie stacks cups
YouTube - Vinnie learns the ring toss
YouTube - Vinnie practices bowling without pins

 

[BraveheartDogs]

well this morning armed with bite sized pieces of almonds.....

I've heard vasa's are extremely quick at picking things up. I know of one vasa who can learn new tricks via clicker training in about 10 minutes and doesn't lose what he has learned. He can do his colors, string breads on and off thin rope, hi five, turin around in a circle........

So I just finished a ten minute training session with eve...

I use a wadded up piece of paper an had him touch it to his beak, that was easy, we moved on to flying over to me to touch the paper and get his treat.That was fine as well, although excitement was starting to get the best of him and he started dancing and doing flips on his stand.

We moved over to the top of his cage. I toss the paper towards the other end of the the top of the cage, eve went after it, touched it, and got treated.

A few minutes later he was chasing the paper across the cage instead of walking over to it and touching it. when he got over to the paper he lunged at it. He got treated. The next time he lunged at the paper, picked it up and began to shake it violently! Like a kill!

This will work I think, if I can get him to fly after it in the air and such.Than I am thinking about hanging a piece of paper or similar object from the ceiling so that when the mood strikes, eve can hunt at will in the air without human help. Thus removing me from the hunt. So that is my plan. we shall see. How does this sound?

The one draw back I am seeing is after Eve killed the paper, it that he went into a feeding frenzy towards me. The hunt provoked his hormones to have to feed me. (this would make a but load of sense since during breeding season females do not under any circumstances feed themselves and are completely depend on their harem of males for food) I than played and wrestled with him and got him to calm down. That might sound like a bad idea, as wrestling, snuggling and such is not recommended as it also insights hormonal behavior, but for a vasa this is different. This type of play and such is fine and does not insight hormones, it is just play to them and helps to redirect their behavior.

Thank you for your ideas!!!! I will keep this thread up to document eve progress, maybe even get a video out if it!

Maybe have shorter training sessions and back off before you get to the frenzy point.

 

[Kimba]

Perhaps.....the frenzy started directly after the first "kill" it might be a matter of excitement at doing it that might fade the more he does it. I'll try to back off before, if possible.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Eve is 10

He regularly plays with spoons, and is not scared of pens, phones......

His only true fear that sets him into a panic is brooms. Or any long pole type object.

Territorial is out!

Perhaps it is not as out as you say. Territorial is given in all species of birds. They fight over potential sexual partners if not mates, they fight over food, water, places to sleep. Vasas can indeed become territorial. Ekkies do NOT mate for life, and they also get very territorial of cage and places they find their territory. Chickens and many many birds do not mate for life, but they can still be territorial.

He is now in an unnatural environment also, so he will do what he must, what he believes he needs to do, to survive in this unnatrural environment.

Male vasa's do not mate bond, nor do they raise or defend young, they do not feed young. In fact they have no parenting role at all. Males live in flocks, and females live alone. The females are territorial. Eve is a male. Eve does not defend his cage, stands or toys, just food. This is consistent with their wild behaviors. Male vasa's defend and raise fruit trees. They engage in farming behavior, I'll explain that one an other time. They are also horder/gatherers. They collect things to give as gifts to possible females. Eve hordes the rocks in my plants and gives them to me. He is not currently doing this yet. Breeding season starts next month. He does not try to defend anything from the other birds either.

As Ive readin another post of yours, he loves spoons. Perhaps he finds that HE wants spoons to give to potential females? etc. I dont know much of vasas, but perhaps when they are about to be in breeding mode/collector mode, the males sometimes fight eachother to be "first in line" to be sexually active with a female?

Eve does not bite me if I am on the computer, only other people, he is usualy preening and then bites as he takes off. Eve does not bite unless he is leaving you, so I think attention is out. it is literately a good bye with a bite.

Ilikebirds......it is typically a pinch, rarely a full on bite although that has happened. Showing off.....there is something to that I think, as he acts out this same behavior while playing with toys. While showing off with his toys that is. I forgot to mention It a squawk, then bite and fly off. This same noise is used in play with him. Eve's noises are very distinct.

Nobody reacts loudly or neg. when this happens.

Dotty4..My friend can snuggle and play with Eve without a problem, and is always nice to Eve. Again ever never bites unless it is in the mentioned situations.


One more thing!!!!! Vasa's are the opposite during breeding season, they are aloof outside of breeding season and super snuggly with the world during breeding season. They will play and snuggle with anybody, human or other animal, or inanimate objects, doesn't matter.

I would love to go to Madagascar, and learn more about Vasa's in their natural habitat.

 

[Hay Kay]

dude! Vinnie is amazing! no wonder Eve learns so quickly! I think you are doing great!

 

[Kimba]

Sooooooooo......Guess who now hunts ANYTHING you throw! Just not in the air yet.... But if I toss paper or a small toys on the couch, Eve makes a dash and kills it!!!!! He has also calmed down on the hunting of the humans as well!!! Breeding season is now on it's way, Eve's beak is starting to change white! He is constantly trying to fed me.....to the point that when he is out he will do nothing else...fun fun.

This eye ring color will begin soon as well, see the yellow developing, his eye ring will be all yellow in a couple of months