Are pellets actually good?

[Icey]

Reading labels is important. I noted with several brands , the label clearly says not suitable for molting birds!! Molts take extra calories, Xtra protein, x Xtra nutrition..so read your labels !! This can vary by brand or in the brand by formula , so I'm not going to pull out individual. But you can see in Harrison high potency says will meet molt needs, but some of the other formulas they offered do not, like maintenance. So keep in mind you may need to make changes prior to , and during molt

That's good to know. I use Harrison's for Frankie, who IS molting right now.

 

[Icey]

There are alot of good points on all sides here, which is normal considering we all have different birds with different diets and different needs.
There's not one fit for all our birds, or even homes with multi birds. My two seldom like the same things, but I don't give up trying different food, whether it be veggies, or pellets. You want to find something that your bird likes that has the nutritional values that you want.

 

[Mizzely]

@Zara Vetafarm is good but it's wheat, corn & soybean based, which are the ingredients that seem to get the most scrutiny. I would try it for sure if it was easy to get here!

 

[Pixiebeak]

That's good to know. I use Harrison's for Frankie, who IS molting right now.

It was a surprise to me! I hadn't been reading labels that closely , and missed this ..then went back and read other brands with them noting that they don't meet molting needs either. Some brands are not going to make this decoration one way or the other , as they are offering an adult bird food , and evidently molts can be considered a different category like breeding condition or baby juvenile birds.
I'm.sure it s balance to not cause weight issues, or to much protein year round. I commend them for making the distinction. But now I have that on my radar!!

Molts are a big demand metabolically . Reading some studies on molts and all the changes that happen to their bodies, their organs, their blood chemistry, and metabolic needs, was crazy. It is often a time a hidden health issue, nutritional issues , can make itself known.

 

[Pixiebeak]

I was encouraged to only feed Harrison’s, Roudybush or tops and was told the rest of the pellets are rubbish that you only feed if you absolutely have to so I felt ashamed Burt was on Vetafarm. I bought all three of those other food brands and switched him over to them- they were a hell of a lot more expensive to purchase and the only one my bird liked and would regularly eat was Roudybush which is no longer available here in Aus so I went back to the pellet my big guy was weaned onto (which has the supposed less desirable ingredients) and to be honest he’s healthier as he’s happier not constantly looking for something he enjoys to eat and he’s eating better than he was on the Harrison’s (which I started to buy after no more Roudybush) and the tops he flat out refused to eat and I honestly don’t blame him (not even the dogs or wild birds would touch them so they got composted).
I do feel slightly shamed as I know for sure many others do too when we read that we shouldn’t feed certain foods…. So reminds me of the dangers many new mothers deal with if they struggle with breastfeeding their infant- shaming people for theirs and their birds food preferences is never going to be the way to go.

Better fed than dead they say!

I think Australia is one of the countries to ban America soy. That could by why roudybush is no longer available

 

[Pixiebeak]

@Xoetix Have you ever tried sprouting seed? You can serve them as soon as they start sprouting so the birds think they're eating seed. After some time, you can try allowing to sprout more.

Sprouts are amazing. It's something I need to be doing more , and eating them myself too

 

[Shezbug]

I think Australia is one of the countries to ban America soy. That could by why roudybush is no longer available

Roudybush was actually being made here.

 

[Icey]

Sprouts are amazing. It's something I need to be doing more , and eating them myself too

I actually bought some sprouting supplies from @Mikey&Mia and I am mad at myself for not trying yet. At first I didn't have a mason jar, so I bought 2.
Now my excuse is laziness on my part and I feel guilty. Tomorrow for sure I will start to become a "Sprouter".

 

[Mizzely]

I love sprouts!! So easy and many of my birds took to them quickly. Ripley only likes them if they have just the beginning of a tail

 

[Icey]

I love sprouts!! So easy and many of my birds took to them quickly. Ripley only likes them if they have just the beginning of a tail

Good to know. Thanks
So, as soon as the tail appears, they are ready?.
Just checking ...

 

[Shezbug]

I actually bought some sprouting supplies from @Mikey&Mia and I am mad at myself for not trying yet. At first I didn't have a mason jar, so I bought 2.
Now my excuse is laziness on my part and I feel guilty. Tomorrow for sure I will start to become a "Sprouter".

Just use a glass. You really do not need fancy sprouting equipment to be successful. My son pinched my sprouter to start off his chilli plants and some other stuff he was experimenting with so I literally chucked my sprouts in a drinking glass and used my hand to hold the seeds back when draining the water, I have also done them in a shallow bowl or a plate. They will literally grow anywhere as long as they get adequate water!

 

[Mizzely]

Good to know. Thanks
So, as soon as the tail appears, they are ready?.
Just checking ...

Yep!

 

[Elizabeth]

Of all my years of experience with keeping pets (mainly dogs and aquatics), everything that I have ever read on food ingredients has written off corn, wheat, and soy as mediocre&terrible ingredients for animal feed.

Now going through ingredients lists of bird pellets (primarily for parakeets), those three ingredients seem to top the list for every prepared food that I have seen being recommended in these forums. Does the commonly accepted idea that corn, wheat, and soy are bad/cheap filler ingredients still apply when it comes to birds? Or are they actually able to process and utilize whatever nutrients may be available in those particular ingredients and thus they should be of no concern when it comes to the composition of the pellets?

Following that question, which pellets have you found to be the most readily accepted by birds that have been primarily raised on seeds?

I see you have 51 replies, so it’s likely you’ve heard close to 51 opinions! I will give you mine. It’s long-winded but hopefully informative.

First, consider that we keep birds from all over the world with vastly different diets in the wild, yet the same staple diet is recommended for all of them, with a few exceptions. It doesn’t add up.

I think that pellets are probably better for some species than others, either because pellets are closer to what they’d eat in the wild, or because some species are more adaptable to unnatural food sources.

Most avian nutrition research has been in agriculture, mostly on chickens. So maybe pellets make great chicken food.

I have an eclectus, and they respond so poorly to pellets that it’s a an absolute no-no, but I noticed significantly improved plumage and activity levels in my gcc when I shifted his diet to fruit/veggies and seed years ago. My cockatiel gets seeds and greens. I adopted my eclectus recently and am still figuring him out but he gets majority fruits and veggies.

Read everything you can about what your species eats in the wild. If possible, get into the scientific literature and read field studies, where biologists have actually followed wild flocks, observed what they eat, and calculated the percentages of what they consume. If possible find studies that have observed diets in different seasons and regions. The scientific language is not a fascinating read. Flip through until you find tables with food species and percentages. Foods are usually listed by scientific names, but pop that into Google and there ya go. Some of science language text could be useful, but don’t worry if it isn’t.

Many parrots are jungle birds and feed in the canopy, not on the ground. Figs are frequently a major component of these birds’ diets because (to my knowledge) they grow in most if not all jungles and fruit year-round.

You will never be able to get them exactly what they eat in the wild, but take a look at the nutritional properties of those foods and try to match them as best you can.

I will describe the adaptations I’ve made for my green cheek and cockatiel as examples.

Green cheeks eat 70% figs in the wild. Figs are much higher in fiber and lower in sugar than most fruits we eat. Wild figs are even lower in sugar than domestic figs. This means that for bender I give him fresh figs whenever I can find them, which is only for a few weeks of the year. So I try to go for lower-sugar fruits and veggies with high fiber. Raspberries and blackberries have a high sugar content but like figs contain a lot of seeds so I like to feed those. Blueberries aren’t quite as sweet as other fruits and are nutritious so I like to feed those when I can. Bananas are ideal due to the fiber content but bender refuses to eat them or even other foods that they’ve touched! Such drama! I’ve been trying to get him eating kale but it’s an uphill battle. He’s very calculating. If you give him a small amount of grape or pomegranate (favorites) he will eat only that, ignore other fresh foods, and eat every single one of the foraging items described below. He’s a gremlin and it’s a constant back and forth!

Conures eat some seeds in the wild, and benders favorite treat is dry macaroni. And it must be elbow macaroni - other kinds of pasta are unacceptable to him!! To keep him from becoming a seed junkie and keep him busy I give him “foraging bags” which are paper lunch bags filled with newspaper I’ve put through a shredder, 1 tbsp seeds, 1 tsp macaroni, 5-6 zupreem pellets for micronutrients. He gets a new one every day. This means that if he wants seeds he has to work quite hard for them - I put in a lot of paper with food at the top. This strategy probably won’t work for a parakeet as it requires a lot of dexterity and energy.

To make sure bender gets protein, calcium and vitamin A reliably, he gets 1 tbsp egg food weekly, which he gobbles down.

Lulu is a grass bird. I’m guessing parakeets might have similar diets but I haven’t read about it. Cockatiels eat mostly grass seeds, quite a bit of plant matter, and the occasional insect.

She gets finch/canary seeds, as those mixes contain more grass seeds. Cockatiel seed mixes are full of millet, sunflower seeds and safflower seeds which are starch and fat. She gets 1 tbsp seeds daily

Getting her to eat greens is a challenge. I chop the very tips off broccoli or cauliflower florets and mix them in with her seeds - she then eats them like seeds! I usually top that with a few chunks of cabbage from a chopped salad mix I eat.

To get the protein from insects in, I tried dried meal worms. Yuk for me, and luckily she wouldn’t eat them! I now give 1/2 tbsp egg food every other day. That also has calcium which is good for the female tiels in particular

She gets a separate bowl of wet kale. Cockatiels are lettuce bathers. She’ll bathe in that and eat some of it while she’s at it.

Foraging is always good but lulu is not as smart or dexterous as bender so we are working on that.

Eclectus nutrition is one of avicultures great mysteries. After I figure it out over the next few years or more, I’ll write a book.

So, that’s a long-winded way of saying that diets should be species-specific and re-create whats fed in the wild. Lots of fresh food and variety. Look up fruits and veggies to avoid (avocado and uncooked potatoes come to mind) and ask in the forum.

A note on seeds and pellets. Seeds are now considered almost toxic by many bird owners and even vets, and some will tell you you’re killing your bird by giving them at all! Most of this info is based off of all-seed diets, which are bad for them indeed, especially majority fruit-eaters. But some species, like cockatiels, eat majority seeds. However, the nutritional content of seeds varies greatly between types of seeds. That’s why you should aim as close as possible for seed types they eat in the wild. That’s why my cockatiel gets finch seed and I try to give my green cheek as much seedy fruit as possible.

Pellet companies actually conduct continuing education courses for avian vets. Continuing education of some form is required to keep their licenses. This means that even many vets are over-hyped on pellets and receive over-exaggerated information on the dangers of seeds. Nutrition articles written for bird owners are frequently written by pellet companies.

Finally, when we consider a human’s diet, exercise is almost always part of the conversation. It should be for birds too. My GCC and cockatiel have huge cages for their size (see below). My ekkie will get an upgrade sometime in the next year. My GCC likes to play so his is chock-full of toys and of course his foraging bags. My cockatiel is afraid of toys (we’re working on it) so hers is almost empty, but that gives her plenty of room to fly, which she does a lot of.

Wing clipping is controversial and not this thread’s topic. But I will say that everything about a birds physiology is based on their ability to fly, and there’s no better form of exercise. Vets are always surprised by the muscling on my birds. GCC and cockatiel have been fully flighted for years. Safety is a major concern. Homes with children are especially problematic. Head over to the flight deck for more info, feel free to PM me.

 

[Pixiebeak]

I see you have 51 replies, so it’s likely you’ve heard close to 51 opinions! I will give you mine. It’s long-winded but hopefully informative.

First, consider that we keep birds from all over the world with vastly different diets in the wild, yet the same staple diet is recommended for all of them, with a few exceptions. It doesn’t add up.

I think that pellets are probably better for some species than others, either because pellets are closer to what they’d eat in the wild, or because some species are more adaptable to unnatural food sources.

Most avian nutrition research has been in agriculture, mostly on chickens. So maybe pellets make great chicken food.

I have an eclectus, and they respond so poorly to pellets that it’s a an absolute no-no, but I noticed significantly improved plumage and activity levels in my gcc when I shifted his diet to fruit/veggies and seed years ago. My cockatiel gets seeds and greens. I adopted my eclectus recently and am still figuring him out but he gets majority fruits and veggies.

Read everything you can about what your species eats in the wild. If possible, get into the scientific literature and read field studies, where biologists have actually followed wild flocks, observed what they eat, and calculated the percentages of what they consume. If possible find studies that have observed diets in different seasons and regions. The scientific language is not a fascinating read. Flip through until you find tables with food species and percentages. Foods are usually listed by scientific names, but pop that into Google and there ya go. Some of science language text could be useful, but don’t worry if it isn’t.

Many parrots are jungle birds and feed in the canopy, not on the ground. Figs are frequently a major component of these birds’ diets because (to my knowledge) they grow in most if not all jungles and fruit year-round.

You will never be able to get them exactly what they eat in the wild, but take a look at the nutritional properties of those foods and try to match them as best you can.

I will describe the adaptations I’ve made for my green cheek and cockatiel as examples.

Green cheeks eat 70% figs in the wild. Figs are much higher in fiber and lower in sugar than most fruits we eat. Wild figs are even lower in sugar than domestic figs. This means that for bender I give him fresh figs whenever I can find them, which is only for a few weeks of the year. So I try to go for lower-sugar fruits and veggies with high fiber. Raspberries and blackberries have a high sugar content but like figs contain a lot of seeds so I like to feed those. Blueberries aren’t quite as sweet as other fruits and are nutritious so I like to feed those when I can. Bananas are ideal due to the fiber content but bender refuses to eat them or even other foods that they’ve touched! Such drama! I’ve been trying to get him eating kale but it’s an uphill battle. He’s very calculating. If you give him a small amount of grape or pomegranate (favorites) he will eat only that, ignore other fresh foods, and eat every single one of the foraging items described below. He’s a gremlin and it’s a constant back and forth!

Conures eat some seeds in the wild, and benders favorite treat is dry macaroni. And it must be elbow macaroni - other kinds of pasta are unacceptable to him!! To keep him from becoming a seed junkie and keep him busy I give him “foraging bags” which are paper lunch bags filled with newspaper I’ve put through a shredder, 1 tbsp seeds, 1 tsp macaroni, 5-6 zupreem pellets for micronutrients. He gets a new one every day. This means that if he wants seeds he has to work quite hard for them - I put in a lot of paper with food at the top. This strategy probably won’t work for a parakeet as it requires a lot of dexterity and energy.

To make sure bender gets protein, calcium and vitamin A reliably, he gets 1 tbsp egg food weekly, which he gobbles down.

Lulu is a grass bird. I’m guessing parakeets might have similar diets but I haven’t read about it. Cockatiels eat mostly grass seeds, quite a bit of plant matter, and the occasional insect.

She gets finch/canary seeds, as those mixes contain more grass seeds. Cockatiel seed mixes are full of millet, sunflower seeds and safflower seeds which are starch and fat. She gets 1 tbsp seeds daily

Getting her to eat greens is a challenge. I chop the very tips off broccoli or cauliflower florets and mix them in with her seeds - she then eats them like seeds! I usually top that with a few chunks of cabbage from a chopped salad mix I eat.

To get the protein from insects in, I tried dried meal worms. Yuk for me, and luckily she wouldn’t eat them! I now give 1/2 tbsp egg food every other day. That also has calcium which is good for the female tiels in particular

She gets a separate bowl of wet kale. Cockatiels are lettuce bathers. She’ll bathe in that and eat some of it while she’s at it.

Foraging is always good but lulu is not as smart or dexterous as bender so we are working on that.

Eclectus nutrition is one of avicultures great mysteries. After I figure it out over the next few years or more, I’ll write a book.

So, that’s a long-winded way of saying that diets should be species-specific and re-create whats fed in the wild. Lots of fresh food and variety. Look up fruits and veggies to avoid (avocado and uncooked potatoes come to mind) and ask in the forum.

A note on seeds and pellets. Seeds are now considered almost toxic by many bird owners and even vets, and some will tell you you’re killing your bird by giving them at all! Most of this info is based off of all-seed diets, which are bad for them indeed, especially majority fruit-eaters. But some species, like cockatiels, eat majority seeds. However, the nutritional content of seeds varies greatly between types of seeds. That’s why you should aim as close as possible for seed types they eat in the wild. That’s why my cockatiel gets finch seed and I try to give my green cheek as much seedy fruit as possible.

Pellet companies actually conduct continuing education courses for avian vets. Continuing education of some form is required to keep their licenses. This means that even many vets are over-hyped on pellets and receive over-exaggerated information on the dangers of seeds. Nutrition articles written for bird owners are frequently written by pellet companies.

Finally, when we consider a human’s diet, exercise is almost always part of the conversation. It should be for birds too. My GCC and cockatiel have huge cages for their size (see below). My ekkie will get an upgrade sometime in the next year. My GCC likes to play so his is chock-full of toys and of course his foraging bags. My cockatiel is afraid of toys (we’re working on it) so hers is almost empty, but that gives her plenty of room to fly, which she does a lot of.

Wing clipping is controversial and not this thread’s topic. But I will say that everything about a birds physiology is based on their ability to fly, and there’s no better form of exercise. Vets are always surprised by the muscling on my birds. GCC and cockatiel have been fully flighted for years. Safety is a major concern. Homes with children are especially problematic. Head over to the flight deck for more info, feel free to PM me.

I'm going to be looking for figs!

 

[Pixiebeak]

I'm going to be looking for figs!

Edit... wait...figs are not native to south America, as my understanding? Is there a native fig in their range?
Can you share how you came across that information, the source? I don't know how to ask that question so it doesn't read snotty , , like I want to know and read and am genuinely curious, so please don't ", read it" as obnoxious

Edit ( again)
Looks like hackberry is main feeding source. But I've got to read through and then look up scientific names

Feeding ecology of the Green-cheeked Parakeet, Pyrrhura molinae (Psittaciformes, Psittacidae), in a subtropical forest of Argentina

Although there are studies on certain aspects of the feeding ecology of several species of Neotropical parrots, there is scarce ecological information about Pyrrhura molinae – a Psittacidae species which is widely distributed in South America and abundant in the Yungas of Argentina. For two...

neotropical.pensoft.net

 

[Mizzely]

The only problem I have with "what they eat in the wild" arguments is that what they eat in the wild is often not readily available to us, and can often be higher calorie than what they would need in a pet home. It also doesn't mean it's necessarily the healthiest option, as they are simply eating what is available when it is available.

It's true that pellets are also not the only way to feed and that not all birds do well on them.

As much as we want feeding to be a black and white issue, it simply isn't and likely never will be unfortunately!

 

[Elizabeth]

Edit... wait...figs are not native to south America, as my understanding? Is there a native fig in their range?
Can you share how you came across that information, the source? I don't know how to ask that question so it doesn't read snotty , , like I want to know and read and am genuinely curious, so please don't ", read it" as obnoxious

Edit ( again)
Looks like hackberry is main feeding source. But I've got to read through and then look up scientific names

Feeding ecology of the Green-cheeked Parakeet, Pyrrhura molinae (Psittaciformes, Psittacidae), in a subtropical forest of Argentina

Although there are studies on certain aspects of the feeding ecology of several species of Neotropical parrots, there is scarce ecological information about Pyrrhura molinae – a Psittacidae species which is widely distributed in South America and abundant in the Yungas of Argentina. For two...

neotropical.pensoft.net

No I get it. I’m a scientist so I basically come up with theories that people then question, which improves them!

I read the study a number of years ago but remember it being a ficus species, which is fig. Possible it was introduced.

It’ll take me a while to find it but I will post it when I do!

 

[Pixiebeak]

No I get it. I’m a scientist so I basically come up with theories that people then question, which improves them!

I read the study a number of years ago but remember it being a ficus species, which is fig. Possible it was introduced.

It’ll take me a while to find it but I will post it when I do!

Ok I went through each species listed and didn't see any figs. But I was so happy to find a study on wild foods consumption, and plan on reading the other linked studies. Impressive over 240 different foods consumption including leaves , and I'm sure not every source could be observed

 

[Elizabeth]

The only problem I have with "what they eat in the wild" arguments is that what they eat in the wild is often not readily available to us, and can often be higher calorie than what they would need in a pet home. It also doesn't mean it's necessarily the healthiest option, as they are simply eating what is available when it is available.

It's true that pellets are also not the only way to feed and that not all birds do well on them.

As much as we want feeding to be a black and white issue, it simply isn't and likely never will be unfortunately!

Definitely is not, and even if we can find the exact same species of plant, like genetically identical (unlikely) all fruit for humans is grown in a way to maximize sugar production by the plant. And most fruit trees have been selectively bred to produce much sweeter fruits than you’d find in the wild.

That’s why you have to approximate, and try to balance that out with high-fiber veggies.

My guess is that some species are more tolerant to the excess sugar than others too. Green cheeks also eat a good amount of nectar so I’m going to hope he’s one of them. Getting him to eat veggies is a constant battle!

He is also not afraid to starve himself out! Back in his pellet days I tried converting him from zupreem to Harrison’s. I did the tapering as instructed. He just ate less food.

After a month of this dance, I was at my wits end and just gave him Harrison’s. I weighed what I gave him and what was there at the end of the day. He didn’t eat a speck.

This went on for two days. He started getting weak and falling off of perches.

Finally I gave up, sighed, and poured him a bowl of zupreem that he devoured immediately. He knew the Harrison’s were pellets, there was no confusion! He was just willing to die on that hill by refusing to eat them!

He will try any food you put in front of him. Getting him to eat non-favorites without compromising his caloric intake is another thing entirely.

I chop up different fruits/veggies every day. I calculate the ratios of what bender gets to make sure he’s eating enough of the good stuff but not underfed.

Foraging and treats must also be considered in these calculations. About 8 years ago I looked at bender and realized he had gotten fat. Perplexed, I asked my husband at the time. He was giving him ritz crackers as a treat, partly because bender would scream until he got some if he saw you eating them.

My ex reported that he would take a piece, take a couple of bites, drop it, and scream until he was given more. But when I got home from work, there were no crackers in his cage tray.

That little gremlin screamed his way into accumulating his own personal pantry of crackers. Then when no one was watching, he would go down and eat all of them!

Eight years later, the battle continues. Ekkies might be a nutritional Rubik’s cube, but Cosmo at least eats what I put in front of him for the most part. My little gremlin takes just as much forethought, but for different reasons. Thank goodness he’s not in an ekkie body. I don’t know what I’d do with him then.

 

[Elizabeth]

Ok I found the fig study. This was dry forests in Brazil, and was published 2005. I saw it around 2012: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...3bmxvYWQiLCJwcmV2aW91c1BhZ2UiOiJfZGlyZWN0In19

@Pixiebeak the study you linked to was Argentina rainforest published 2021

I saw in the Brazil study that they ate a lot of gummy worm fruit, which I think I’ve seen for sale in Asian supermarkets. Guess where I’m going this weekend!

If I were to sum it up in a sentence, I would say their diet is flexible and mostly fruit-based, but consists of high-fiber low-sugar fruits, many of which contain seeds. Does that sound about right?