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Vet questions?

Leanna

Walking the driveway
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Leanna B
So I should start off by saying I live in an area where eclectus are relatively rare and most people do not have them. As a result my vet has little experience with them (as does every other vet in a 50 mile radius unfortunately) and while he did give me some advice on the different diet of eclectus, he also recommended supplementation for vitamins. Every bird in my care thus far has been on harrisons high potency to which I've added red palm oil. I also give avicalm when molting or hormonal.
In the past my vet has advised against vitamins as the diet I have my birds on is nutritionally fortified enough, but his opinion is that my eclectus may need it if he's even a little picky since it will be almost all fruit and veggies. My question for everyone is what does your vet recommend for supplements if any? Also did you vaccinate against polyoma?
 

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Harrison's is a complete diet and RPO is very good for your bird. It is my understanding that an Eclectus should have the major part of his diet in Veggies and a few fruits. Your bird needs no other supplements and you can actually harm your bird's health by over supplementing.

Have you looked in the Eclectus forum for diets. There are some very good owners who have posted in there.
 

Aggie

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Please please do not give fortified seeds, supplements or pellets to your eckie. The exception would be when blood tests have identified an actual deficiency. I give vit d and calcium during winter months once a week. And probiotics post antibiotics. Pellets i give literally 5 a week. (This is all based from regular blood test and patterns observed over a 2 year period and for only very minor deficiencies in calcium and magnesium. Additionally i kept a food record chart for 6 months to identify problem foods and what was actually being eaten).

Their diet is fresh fruit and vegetables. If you are worried and want to do the best for your eckie buy organic and offer lots of variety. If your eckie is picky eater work on presentation. Food on skewer or in a sphere for some reason has mire appeal than chopped in a bowl. As does your plate lol. They can be taught to eat more variety. They will also have a favourite for a week or two and move onto something else. Lots of green leafy vegetables will guarantee a healthy liver.

We have been burnt with this and ended up in toe tapping so bad that i thought he was going to have a seizure from over supplimentation. Removed pellets and highly nutrious foods for few weeks and problem went away. He enjoys everything now in moderation. Will not use harrisons pellets.

Eckies have extremely long digestive tracks that make them extremely efficient at breaking down and absorbing nutrients even in low nutrient foods. The result is makes them easily prone to over supplimentation and thus toe tapping.

As for vaccinations my understanding is that this has to happen when they are a baby chick and most breeders dont ....so for adult bird it becomes fruitless due to potential exposure already. My AV has explained that a healthy adult will not contract stuff or only becomes a carrier. Tests are available through bloods and swabs and if negative just do not expise your burd to other. However we are in Australia so this is practice here as these guys are native far north for us.

Hope this helps.
 

Leanna

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Missouri
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Leanna B
Oh I'm sorry about that, I wasn't clear. I never intended to give my eclectus pellets. I know that's not appropriate for them. I meant to imply I've never needed to supplement with my other birds so I was in the dark on which to use. But considering the risks mentioned above, I think I'll skip the supplements altogether now. I have vitamin d bulbs that should help with winter.

@Aggie
What is your diet breakdown? I thought the consensus was 60% fruit and veggies, 20% sprouts and legumes and 20% cooked grain or pulses. Do you think it's possible to over dose on vitamins following that ratio?
Thank you for the advice.
 

Aggie

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@Leanna

I'm no expert by any means. This is my first eckie and I've learnt the hard way. I also think each bird is different. Blood tests, plumage and calm behaviour have helped guide me that im making good choices for my boy. A lower nutrient diet will also help minimise some of the sexual behaviours these guys can have. Since altering my boys diet i have a less moody/screaming parrot. He is simply calmer and happier which are subjective of good health in my opinion.

If i had to break it down he gets 70% fruit/veg (i choose lots of green leaf from my garden and try pick non sweet fruits when i can) i watch his behavior and sometimes the passionfruit is what he wants so i give that while other times he favours citrus or berries or boy does sigar snap peas or silverbeat taste good. Im guided by what he wants that is healthy and try not over give it. 20% is sprouted chick peas and 10% is a sprinkle of some sort of seed or once a week he gets 5 pellets. Occasionally he will get some beans, rice or quinoa but this in replacement of the 10%. I found rye, spelt and brown rice to be too nutritional and cause toe tapping. I also always cook corn as it can have a toxin also linked to toe tapping. Corn is also only offered once/twice a week if molting only due to higher GI. I give organic millet with really heavy molts for nicer plumage. He also gets fresh gumnuts and leaves. Gum tree branches do wonders for their health. Not only for filing beaks down but freshening breath/digestive health.

My boy definitely over dosed when he was younger as he would literally eat everything in sight that was offered. Hes a spoilt shizz now so can be a bit more picky in what he wants but in saying that i think he picks what nutrients he needs more of at the time. Ive gotten very good with variety. Every week there is a new combo in his bowl.

Some eckies will never toe tap, barb feathers, became sexually frustrated or pluck despite of diet. Why this is so no one can really answer. Just frustrating if it happens when you think you're doing the best.

Maybe just use supplements if blood tests indicate it? Not against them just when really needed.

Would love to get a vit d light. Just have had a few issues sourcing here. Such a better way of getting more calcium.

Also try using different herbs and spices. They really love a variety of flavors.
 

Leanna

Walking the driveway
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Location
Missouri
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Leanna B
I didn't know that a 'superfood' diet can cause problems in eclectus. I did know spirulina was a no go because I've been stalking this form for awhile. I'm glad I know now though because I was planning on feeding mostly nutrient dense veggies like microgreens (I grow them for myself anyway) and sweet potato. Today I found out my breeder does vaccinate against polyoma. Apparently it's the standard now in the US. It probably wouldn't be in Australia though given their strict laws on making sure exotic birds aren't imported there.


For full spectrum lighting, you should try lights meant for humans. They are doing the same thing, don't buy into marketing hype of bird UV lights. If you want the full chemistry breakdown of vitamin D uptake, I don't mind putting my degree to actual use here but for now I'll give the basic. Mammals and birds use the same chemical pathways to synthesize vitamin D. You can give Vitamin D2 foods as much as you want but without light they never convert. Light is necessary if you want to truly activate and convert the vitamin D2, but vitamin D3 is already converted so it isn't as necessary for that. If your supplement says D3 then you don't need to worry as much about light in theory (in practice is another story). The active form of vitamin D (D3) is only found in animal products because it was previously synthesized when that animal was living. This is why vegans have a tough time finding some supplements.


Then there's the problem of absorption. The absorption rate of D3 is incredibly tricky in humans, as it's controlled by a variety of factors, but as I said birds use the same chemical pathway so we can make some assumptions about them based on research done on humans. In saying that, you can pretty much bet that your Australian birds are going to have a more difficult time absorbing vitamin D3 that it did not specifically convert itself. This is because Australia has a stronger sun and therefore much quicker and efficient vitamin D2 conversion. This is also why aboriginal people in Australia are so dark in skin tone, they did not need any help in converting vitamin D2 like white people did in England. Native Australians evolved for lots of sun, and Australian birds had to do the same. As evolution does not give advantages to those who don't need it, Australian birds wouldn't have needed to take D3 in from animal products when converting D2 was so easy. Australia in particular is known in my field (evolutionary biology) for it's unique take on evolving organisms. Australian animals are more likely to highly specific diets (think lories and koalas) and aren't as adaptable to changes in their environment or food source. This is probably why vitamin over supplementation is so risky for eclectus. However, you should be able to avoid over supplementing with the use of light therapy and D2 naturally available in food. Your bird's body should simply stop converting when D3 levels are where they should be. The same could be said about vitamin A, if it's given in beta-carotene form. This is called the 'provitamin advantage' and it's actually the reasons doctors warn against vitamin A supplements but have no problem with you eating sweet potatoes and carrots by the pound.

If you guys are interested I could write something up on nutrient co-absorption. Meaning which nutrients inhibit the absorption of others and which boost the absorption of others. I'm studying it anyway as part of my masters.
 

Aggie

Walking the driveway
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I didn't know that a 'superfood' diet can cause problems in eclectus. I did know spirulina was a no go because I've been stalking this form for awhile. I'm glad I know now though because I was planning on feeding mostly nutrient dense veggies like microgreens (I grow them for myself anyway) and sweet potato. Today I found out my breeder does vaccinate against polyoma. Apparently it's the standard now in the US. It probably wouldn't be in Australia though given their strict laws on making sure exotic birds aren't imported there.


For full spectrum lighting, you should try lights meant for humans. They are doing the same thing, don't buy into marketing hype of bird UV lights. If you want the full chemistry breakdown of vitamin D uptake, I don't mind putting my degree to actual use here but for now I'll give the basic. Mammals and birds use the same chemical pathways to synthesize vitamin D. You can give Vitamin D2 foods as much as you want but without light they never convert. Light is necessary if you want to truly activate and convert the vitamin D2, but vitamin D3 is already converted so it isn't as necessary for that. If your supplement says D3 then you don't need to worry as much about light in theory (in practice is another story). The active form of vitamin D (D3) is only found in animal products because it was previously synthesized when that animal was living. This is why vegans have a tough time finding some supplements.


Then there's the problem of absorption. The absorption rate of D3 is incredibly tricky in humans, as it's controlled by a variety of factors, but as I said birds use the same chemical pathway so we can make some assumptions about them based on research done on humans. In saying that, you can pretty much bet that your Australian birds are going to have a more difficult time absorbing vitamin D3 that it did not specifically convert itself. This is because Australia has a stronger sun and therefore much quicker and efficient vitamin D2 conversion. This is also why aboriginal people in Australia are so dark in skin tone, they did not need any help in converting vitamin D2 like white people did in England. Native Australians evolved for lots of sun, and Australian birds had to do the same. As evolution does not give advantages to those who don't need it, Australian birds wouldn't have needed to take D3 in from animal products when converting D2 was so easy. Australia in particular is known in my field (evolutionary biology) for it's unique take on evolving organisms. Australian animals are more likely to highly specific diets (think lories and koalas) and aren't as adaptable to changes in their environment or food source. This is probably why vitamin over supplementation is so risky for eclectus. However, you should be able to avoid over supplementing with the use of light therapy and D2 naturally available in food. Your bird's body should simply stop converting when D3 levels are where they should be. The same could be said about vitamin A, if it's given in beta-carotene form. This is called the 'provitamin advantage' and it's actually the reasons doctors warn against vitamin A supplements but have no problem with you eating sweet potatoes and carrots by the pound.

If you guys are interested I could write something up on nutrient co-absorption. Meaning which nutrients inhibit the absorption of others and which boost the absorption of others. I'm studying it anyway as part of my masters.
I was a vitamine consultant so have some basic understanding about conversion and absorption. I know a little on chemistry from my degree too. Would love some more info please!! The more natural the better.

Do you have a link to the bulbs you buy pls?
 

Leanna

Walking the driveway
Joined
6/6/15
Messages
168
Location
Missouri
Real Name
Leanna B
I use these for myself and the birds. My doctor did see an increase in my vitamin D levels after a couple weeks use, but I never had the birds tested as nothing was really wrong with them at the time. Beware though, for whatever reason these always tricked my birds into thinking it was morning and happily proceeded with morning screeches.
UVB Broadband TL Medical Therapy UVB Broad band - Philips Lighting


You may want to avoid pet lights due to them being relatively untested and unproven. However, this website gives helpful comparison of 'pet' lamps...
UV Lighting for Reptiles: A new problem with high UVB output fluorescent compact lamps and tubes?
 
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