Thinking...

[Daema]

I know I'll probably lose the respect of quite a bit of people here... and possibly get some not so nice remarks...

but for the longest while I've been thinking... about raising babies.

I know there is a terrible plight with parrots, but look around.. it's not just them.. it's dogs, it's cats, it's everything, and the sad thing is the breeding isn't going to stop. That's just the cruel reality of it... the LEAST LEAST I can do is be a good 'breeder' that educates my customers. Sure, I won't get as many people interested but I'm not going to blindly lead people into such a big responsibility... I'd also still help other parrots in need.

I don't plan to set up for another year, and I don't even know if it will support itself in funds, but I at least want to try. Raising my own was so rewarding... and sometimes I look back and feel a little sad that it's no longer appropriate for me to hand feed them... but if I do this I can continue what I love. It will be sad to say goodbye, but it would be unreasonable for me to keep them all. At least if I educate the new owners I'll have some comfort in knowing that I showed them the big picture, and I'll take comfort in knowing that they can contact me any time they need help.

So, before I get into things, what are ways to be a reputable breeder? I personally won't have pairs, I'll probably be doing whole-sale purchasing for a while until we get a farm.

Our current plans are start out small, abundance wean, allow fledging, allow interactions with our flock so they're socially well rounded, expose them to people, fresh fruits and veggies, and a well rounded seed/pellet diet(no peanuts and very limited sunflower seeds). We will give the option to clip them or not, but stress the risks of having them clipped, but the pros of not having them clipped so they can try to make an educated decision for themselves. Also continued support, and I will be sure to run my own personal tests for avian diseases as soon as they arrive in my care.

Is there anything I'd be missing or anything? Anything additional I should know?

 

[birdle]

I've been reading a lot about parent raised vs hand raised birds and what I've read is that parent raised birds where the babies are allowed to stay with the parents a little longer after weaning to learn how to be a bird tend to not develop "typical" pet bird behaviors like being phobic, feather plucking, excessive mouthyness etc. I can't remember where I found the article but it was really interesting so maybe it would be beneficial to your babies to allow them to be around adult birds of their own species during the weaning process so they can learn how to be more like a bird. The article referenced congo african greys and galah cockatoos as being better off with an adult bird to interact with during weaning but I imagine most species would do well with a role model.

I think that would be a step in the right direction because not many breeders do that. I'll try to find the article

 

[Daema]

I do know, and have personally experienced, that Galahs seem to be more prone to phobic behaviors.

Though, nest time wouldn't be in my control until I got pairs of my own, which I couldn't possibly house all of in my home unless I did some serious renovations, lol. We probably won't have our own pairs until we have our own land with no one nearby. A legitimate country setting. We're only kinda sorta in the country now, one neighbor that lives behind us, the other two neighboring are a little bit away from us. I have read such a thing, though. If I had my own pairs I'd probably remove them from the nest at maybe 3 - 4+ weeks(depends on species). I know some people pull them at 2 weeks, I think.

 

[suileeka]

"I know there's a problem, but screw it. I'm going to contribute to it because I know it's a problem!"

What? Why are you even bothering to justify it if you know it's a problem? Just say you want to be a breeder.

 

[Daema]

"I know there's a problem, but screw it. I'm going to contribute to it because I know it's a problem!"

What? Why are you even bothering to justify it if you know it's a problem? Just say you want to be a breeder.

And people wonder why I hardly ever say anything.

You're human. You can't tell me you're not negatively impacting the environment or SOMETHING. You can't just magically not be human. Only way you aren't a negative impact is if you go back to being a caveman, in which case, you wouldn't be talking to me and you'd actually probably be dead if you're in your early twenties or older. :/

I asked for help, not sass. If you don't like breeding then ignore the breeding section. Otherwise you're just purposely causing problems and being a nuisance.

Edit: Also, it clearly states I LIKE RAISING BABIES. I'm not doing it just for the hell of it. It's a skill that I very much miss utilizing.

 

[Saemma]

I sincerely hope that you don't expect that only the folks who LIKE what you posted be the ones to comment on this thread.

I mean this is the most kindest way. How often have you ever wondered about the birds on cl and rescues who were probably also bought from breeders and folks who also LIKE or LIKED raising babies too? I agree with the late and wonderful Maya Angelou who said "When you know better, you do better." I don't feel like this is the case for you. Why not channel the the way you feel about raising baby parrots in a way that actually makes a long term, responsible and meaningful impact instead? Long after you've completed your end of the transaction.

 

[Daema]

Yanno what? I'm just going to take my presence elsewhere. Anytime I ever post anything, a quarter of the time someone has to be snobby about it. It's quite obvious I don't belong, so I'll be taking my leave. I only asked on how to be a more REPUTABLE breeder and not one that purposefully cons people out of their money and then they realize a month down the road that a parrot is too much for them. I guess it's not good enough to TRY and make light out of something bad. Hey, by your standards, I might as well be totally bad? I might as well just say,"Oh yes! Parrots are AMAZING pets and provide tons of entertainment for you, your family, and your children! I recommend them for people of all ages!" when we all know that's a GIANT lie.

Have fun, bye.

 

[birdle]

well everyone has a different opinion on breeding and literally everything else and by posting in a public forum you are inviting everyone to comment. but you shouldn't leave. just press the ignore button

 

[Daema]

well everyone has a different opinion on breeding and literally everything else and by posting in a public forum you are inviting everyone to comment. but you shouldn't leave. just press the ignore button

Seriously, what's the point of having a breeding topic in a supposedly friendly forum community if everyone's just going to bash on the people posting in the breeding section, regardless if they're trying to be an honest breeder and not a liar for profit.

I sat here and looked at the other people posting about their breeding efforts and not one of you have said anything to them on their threads. Go bash them if you're so self righteous. Why just me? Go bash them.

Edit: Except you. You tried to be helpful. The only person that's by far tried to be helpful while the rest seem to now think I'm inherently evil. Sally(Shastasmom) is the kind of breeder I'd like to be. I take the time to do things right and educate the new owner to make sure they want to go into parronthood. I see nobody being hateful to her. I guess I'm a magnet for rude people.

 

[birdle]

well it sucks feeling bashed. dont take it too personal even though its hard. honestly there are too few good breeders. while i dont think there necessarily hasto be more it is inevitable (sp?) and they might as well be educated and in it to raise well socialized and prepared babies.

 

[Daema]

well it sucks feeling bashed. dont take it too personal even though its hard. honestly there are too few good breeders. while i dont think there necessarily hasto be more it is inevitable (sp?) and they might as well be educated and in it to raise well socialized and prepared babies.

Thank you. At least someone sees the reality of things. Even if it wasn't breeders, there's still accidents, too. I guess the next thing, if there were no breeders, is to bust the chops of those that had accidents, like really? It's like trying to stop the fur trade. Whether you know it or not, you're supporting it. How do I know this? They don't waste any part of the body. The meat usually goes into pet foods. Ever seen 'meat by-products'? Or just plain old 'meat' with no specification? Yeah. That's fox meat, maybe pig parts, chicken parts, etc. They sometimes grind up the bones and use them in bone meal. Guess what? Your vegetables were fertilized with fur trade by-products. Unless all of the public is outraged, then nothing's going to happen. I've come to accept this. Like with the recent Seaworld ordeal. The ONLY reason why Congress had their own independent effort in stopping Seaworld from inhumanely treating their marine wildlife is because it's become a recent hot topic across the nation, and only thanks to CNN, a major head line. You'll find the media runs everything. If they media isn't concerned, then the government isn't concerned. That's sadly the way things operate.

Parrot Confidential didn't really spark a fire under anyone's butt like it was hoping. The public still doesn't care as much as it did yesterday. Plenty of people care about the welfare of dogs and cats, but you still see the problem persists despite the efforts of literally THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of rescues, shelters, and humane societies. :/

The next best thing is to at least be informative and supportive, if you're a breeder. Don't sugar-coat things. It's better they know the truth, instead of be sold by pet-store lies.

 

[Anne & Gang]

Seriously, what's the point of having a breeding topic in a supposedly friendly forum community if everyone's just going to bash on the people posting in the breeding section, regardless if they're trying to be an honest breeder and not a liar for profit.

I sat here and looked at the other people posting about their breeding efforts and not one of you have said anything to them on their threads. Go bash them if you're so self righteous. Why just me? Go bash them.

Edit: Except you. You tried to be helpful. The only person that's by far tried to be helpful while the rest seem to now think I'm inherently evil. Sally(Shastasmom) is the kind of breeder I'd like to be. I take the time to do things right and educate the new owner to make sure they want to go into parronthood. I see nobody being hateful to her. I guess I'm a magnet for rude people.

You have to take the good with the bad...I enjoy your posts and hearing about your birds. You also have to be able to take criticism as well as good things. So if someone is being what you think is rude, just read it like you would a normal post and glean out of the comments what you can use to further your endeavors.

 

[Daema]

You have to take the good with the bad...I enjoy your posts and hearing about your birds. You also have to be able to take criticism as well as good things. So if someone is being what you think is rude, just read it like you would a normal post and glean out of the comments what you can use to further your endeavors.

Yeh, I'll try. It's just irritating I ask for help on a place that's, you know, supposed to be helpful and most of what I get is grief. Someone's been nice enough to direct me somewhere more helpful and accepting in this field, though.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Having owned three businesses myself - I can't stress enough that you examine the financial realities over and over and over. That you run numbers under several different scenarios and determine if you can survive the worst case scenario. The great majority of businesses are significantly under capitalized and fail for that reason.

Odds will only go up against you in the future with the heavy burden of licensing, permits regulations that the government is putting on all businesses. Not to mention the extreme increase in taxes local, state and federal.

Just because a person wants/likes something doesn't mean he should have it.

 

[Anne & Gang]

Yeh, I'll try. It's just irritating I ask for help on a place that's, you know, supposed to be helpful and most of what I get is grief. Someone's been nice enough to direct me somewhere more helpful and accepting in this field, though.

we need an update on your other birds..post in a separate thread..would love to hear about how everybirdie is.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

You will face some of these same issues (comments) from the public if you breed. You will also need a strong cash flow to allow for vet care, food, enrichment. You probably do have some good ideas on raising birds. You also need to be able to deal with the public in a positive way which you plan to but that includes not being negative about others. I have found that the public may agree with what you have to say but don't appreciate you saying it if that makes sense. Wish you the best in what ever your choice is. I have several breeder friends and love what they do. I also have a number of friends that rehab. It is what you present that will matter.

 

[melissasparrots]

I would say don't expect to go beyond very small time and still manage to sell birds without sacrificing ethics. I still have my two baby amazons that hatched early last August. Have had several really long conversations with people wanting amazons. The general public really wants a dog with feathers. I've had many that were so excited and so convinced they were ready to buy based on what they saw on a few websites that I could have sold these two amazons a few times over by now. Everyone that called me had done some research but the sites they went to or wanted to believe were the ones that downplayed the bad stuff and talked all about the good stuff. For some bizarre reason, nobody wanted my amazons after talking with me about them. The only person I ever had that was not happy with my bird and actually ended up rehoming it was someone that I did not have a super in depth reality of living with the bird conversation with. They had an amazon in the past, but it was sick so probably not as spirited as it normally would have been. She said she loved the amazon character and knew about needing to teach gentleness and read body language. Then she got the bird and was unwilling to push through the beak pressure issues of a young exuberant male amazon. So now, I really make sure to say the word BITE several times when talking to people. Tell them how to avoid the bite and what situations tend to lead to a bite. Tends to take the shine off amazons for a lot of people and then they no longer want one.
Oddly enough, when I first decided to pair my female I thought to myself, they should be an easy species for me to sell because I don't really like amazons that much. There shouldn't be a lot of guilt with it and they are an independent species to start with so if they end up getting rehomed they can roll with it. Well, a funny thing happened after rearing my first chick. I learned that their mom wasn't just one extraordinary bird but that I loved the whole species. So much so, I worry about my babies. Especially my males. This is as it should be and it is HARD finding someone that has the right mental state to take everything an amazon can dish out and still love it. Lots of people have the same expectations for family pet from a bird that they would have from a dog. Not gonna happen with an amazon or most other species for that matter.

My advice would be don't do it at all. Or, if you must, find a very easy species that is in demand and that most people can work with. Green cheek conures tend to be a success for a lot of people. Something small, not overly aggressive, screamy, or nippy but has some snuggle potential which is what people want. Or, go with what I have now. Raise one or two clutches every year or two of a species you love so much your willing to live with those babies quite a while, potentially needing to reduce the price of the chicks after they have surpassed the easily sell-able baby phase and just wait for a really good home to come along. Its not enough for people to answer my questions right. I ask lots of open ended questions, look for people to trip themselves up in a lie or tell me so much that I know my bird won't be a good match for them. I'm looking for people with a good head on their shoulders, somewhat educated enough to be able to educate themselves and willing to educate themselves, not the type that runs off of emotion for everything, smart enough to choose a good home if they do need to rehome my bird in the future and that communicates well with me so I feel they will call me if they have trouble. And more than anything I'm looking for a really good character vibe and someone that has a stable job, relationship and lifestyle and that the whole family is on board with the bird and has appropriate expectations about what kind of interaction to expect with it. All that in one person or family is not real common in our population. I usually break even. My pair generally goes to the vet for a blood draw and grooming shortly before I put up the nest box every year or two. My male sometimes gets a sinus infection and needs a round of antibiotics. Their first couple chicks needed some vet care but were fine after treatment. On a good year I break even. If the economy sucks or I need to discount them down to $400-$500 to compete with the larger breeders in my area that talk the good talk, then I probably won't make a profit off of 2 chicks. The one year I let my amazon pair double clutch and they had 5 chicks, I ended up keeping two and still have them 6 years later because it was 2008, people weren't buying and those that were tended not to be the responsible with money or life types that I would sell a bird to. And, both of the ones I kept were pretty bratty and I was worried that someone would ruin them. I discounted them a lot but learned it wasn't so much a money thing. The right person will pay a good asking price for them. Its more a matter of there being very few "right people" for the species I breed. If you are hoping to breed any of the large parrots and sell to homes that stick with the bird, you can expect a similar experience. Also wanted to point out, so far not a single person that has been on a waiting list for one of my babies and even paid a deposit was still able to buy the bird when it weaned. I can get people on a waiting list so clearly there is demand, its just life happens and they can't pay 4-6 months later when the bird is ready. I don't mess with waiting lists because it just ends up dragging out the whole process and I worry people won't understand if their bird is ready to go, but I don't feel it would be a good match for them after some of its real personality is starting to show. All things that can make selling birds with good morals tough.

 

[melissasparrots]

Also wanted to point out that many pairs of larger parrots won't get it right on the first, second, third try. You'll have to either be willing to lose some chicks while the parents learn, or step in and hand-feed/incubate when needed. In my experience, the whole idea of co-parenting, or leaving babies in the box until older is perfect world thinking. You can sometimes get away with it with some species being more accepting of interference than others, or you end up with the odd pair you just have a really good relationship with. However, its not always best for the birds.

And contrary to some of the ARish propaganda out there about co-parenting or leaving chicks with parents, in the species I raise, I have not seen any difference in pet quality or long term behaviors of a bird hand-fed from day one vs. parent raised the whole way or parent raised to 4 weeks. In fact, in some small bird species, parent raised entirely makes them super hard to tame. I have not seen one small bit of difference in my amazons that were pulled and hand-raised from about day 2 because of some problem in the nest box I needed to step in for, or those parent raised for about 5 weeks. The only difference is the older chicks had a harder time transitioning to hand-feeding for the first few days and some of them have been a little lower in peak weight. Otherwise, they go through the same grabby, needing to learn gentleness phases that any baby bird goes through. I think some species like maybe cockatoos could benefit from either co-parenting which is unlikely to actually work a lot of the time without dead chicks or mate aggression from all the human interference, or conversely, hand-feeding them in the presence of other cockatoos and allowing them to do some flocking and interaction with other birds during and immediately post weaning. Personally, I don't see a need to leave babies with the parents unless its working for you. Everyone is different. Some people it just works for them to pull chicks at about day 10 or so. Sometimes you HAVE to step in a pull them sooner because of a sick or injured parent or baby. And sometimes I think the parents enjoy being parents, so I let them do their thing a little longer until the hen starts to look a little stressed and then I pull them. Going off of a set ideal based on something you read isn't realistic when working with individual pairs. You have to be flexible and go with what works for that specific pair and their specific babies. Just because you read something that someone else did and it gave you nice warm feeling inside, doesn't mean its going to work for you or that its even the right thing to do for your birds. Some pairs will kill their chicks if you decide to co-parent. Or the babies might be so jumpy if you wait too long to hand-feed that it stresses them out more than its worth. Or, they might just not turn out to be good pets if you wait too long to pull for hand-feeding. A lot of parrotlets don't make good pets if not pulled for hand-feeding before about 14 days old. After that, you will have a higher percentage that just doesn't want to be pets. Always hanging out in the back of the cage. The last one to volunteer for hand-feeding and as soon as its weaned, doesn't want a thing to do with people. You get one like that once in a while no matter what you do. But more often if you wait too long. Every pair needs to be treated different and requires a little flexibility and know how to figure out what works for them.

 

[birdle]

i think i worded my initial post wrong at first i was just saying that birds who are parent raised or weaned and allowed to interact with adult "models" before placement tend to not develop typical pet bird tendencies this is not about how long the babies are in the box im trying to say have adult model birds of the same species they can interact with during weaning. i seriously cant find the article but it was written by an africa. grey breeder who weaned her babies using that concept. she based it off the weaning process that happens in the wild where the weaned birds spent time in a nursery tree with nanny birds to teach them the ropes.

 

[Daema]

i think i worded my initial post wrong at first i was just saying that birds who are parent raised or weaned and allowed to interact with adult "models" before placement tend to not develop typical pet bird tendencies this is not about how long the babies are in the box im trying to say have adult model birds of the same species they can interact with during weaning. i seriously cant find the article but it was written by an africa. grey breeder who weaned her babies using that concept. she based it off the weaning process that happens in the wild where the weaned birds spent time in a nursery tree with nanny birds to teach them the ropes.

This one?

Pull Early - Pull Late? - African Queen Aviaries