• Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
    Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here

The 'Sucker-punch'

Skwawk

Strolling the yard
Joined
1/23/16
Messages
87
While I haven't had experience myself(no TAG yet :'0), I've seen a few people(3 or 4, at least one with an Amazon and at least one with a CAG) here mentioning a certain behavior of their birds. This behavior is the bird putting its head down for a scratch, but when you reach over they lift their head up and bite you. From what I heard, it seems that the bird is playing a game.
But then, reading one of the books I have gotten on Greys, I saw a little infobox on the side labelled 'The Sucker-punch'. And it was about this exact sort of behavior: the bird acts like it wants a scratch, but it then reaches and bites the owner. So named because it catches the owner off-guard, it hurts, and it leaves the bird the victor.
But I became a little worried when I read the next part. Apparently, this is no game. The bird is testing your leadership. Every time the bird bites you, its trust in your ability to lead goes down. It demonstrates that you are not guiding the relationship; so it must be the bird. And if it realizes you fell for the trick once, it will try it again. And every time you repeat it, the bird learns that you don't learn. The bird doubts you more and more. This may result in(depending on the maturity and personality of the bird) a lack of cooperation or aggression; or confusion, fear, and stress(possibly also leading to aggression). Developing birds can be stressed if they perceive they are more in control of the relationship and the flock than you are, as they aren't ready for the role themselves. If the bird seriously doubts your ability to lead, they may refuse to cooperate, or even step up. Obviously, these are extreme cases. But even their mild forms are undesirable.
So what to do about it? Well, avoid it. But that doesn't mean giving up scratching the bird. When the bird actually puts its head down for a scratch, it closes its eyes. When the bird is going to bite, it will have its eyes up, watching you. Don't reach for the bird if its eyes are open! Instead, try to distract it by talking to it, waving your hands; or just wait a minute or two until the bird is calmed down. Try going through a step-up routine to reinforce cooperation. Reward the bird for calm, docile, non-aggressive behavior. Whenever the bird puts its head down for a scratch(and its eyes are closed!), reward it not just with a scratch but with praise. Once the bird learns you are no longer falling for the trick, it will probably regain its faith in you and may stop completely, for a while. But keep your wits about you, for when it tries it again.

Some additional notes:
Never punish a bird for biting you, like this or any way. The bird associates the punishment for you. This may actually encourage biting, due to fear. And fear bites are much more painful, and harder to cure, than testing bites like the sucker-punch. It is far better to show the bird what to do, and reward them for doing that. That way, they know what to do instead of the bad behavior, instead of just knowing not to do it but not knowing what to do instead(once again, this can lead to stress).
And also, if the bird does bite you(for any reason), don't immediately pull away and cry out in pain. Once again, this casts doubt upon who is guiding the relationship. Instead, press your finger into the bird's mouth(this surprises them), say 'let go' calmly but firmly, and then slowly withdraw your finger. It is best to stay away from the bird's beak in situations where it might bite, or if it is showing that it plans to bite(pinning it's eyes, raising its shoulder feathers, small lunges, hyper-vigilance, etc. Take a look at a guide to avian body language here).

Just wanted to put this out there. Many bird owners may not realize what 'the sucker-punch' means, and allow it to continue. Hopefully this will cure it, and nip any confidence problems in the bud. This could also, hopefully, educate a some on what to do with biting in general. Ignorance may well be the biggest barrier to a successful relationship with a parrot.
If anyone has any qualms, corrections, additional details, etc; name them! After all, none of this is from my own experience, just a book.
 
Last edited:

Clueless

Joyriding the Neighborhood
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Avenue Concierge
Joined
11/3/12
Messages
24,153
In my humble opinion, they don't close their eyes unless they trust you.

These zons have been here nearly five years. I can count on one hand the number of times Secret has closed eyes for a skritch. Secret tries the sucker punch, I just prepare myself for it and remove hand....best to skritch through the bars with that bird.

Like I've read, better to avoid the bite.
 

Dartman

Biking along the boulevard
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Cutest Bird Ever!!!
Joined
10/20/12
Messages
9,279
Location
Portland Oregon
Real Name
Terry
Lurches closes his eyes on my side but tends to watch sister or anything else with the other. The first night he was here he seemed fine so I was scratching under his beak and he whipped around and tore a chunk off my finger. I guess that was a sucker punch and I realized we weren't going to be best friends right away, and strangling him would probably be bad.
He was scared to death and took a long time to trust me fully and still gets pissy some 6 years later. I think Pionus are sorta related to Amazon's.
 

LaSelva

Jogging around the block
Avenue Veteran
Joined
5/22/12
Messages
887
Real Name
David
Who's the author?
 

gibsongrrrl

Courtney Lou Hoo
Avenue Veteran
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
7/4/10
Messages
9,292
Real Name
Courtney Lou Hoo
I know two greys (CAGs)that do that. I finally learned to tell the difference between a real offer to scritch and the sucker punch. it's definitely in the eyes and head feather ruffles. in my experience the bowed head with head ruffles all poofy and relaxed eye means go. bowed head with no or very little poofy ruffles and the eye looking at you means your going to get nailed, lol. Just normal looking at you is ok, but it's the super focused naughty glint you gotta watch out for. My mom's grey would do it to me all the time. wasn't until I met one that liked me that I could tell the difference. I was just scared of them all until Bella, lol.
 

gibsongrrrl

Courtney Lou Hoo
Avenue Veteran
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
7/4/10
Messages
9,292
Real Name
Courtney Lou Hoo
I really can't even think of another bird besides a cag that has done that to me. most birds I interacted with at the clinic or our boarders were pretty straightforward about whether they might bite or not. I've also seen my friend Bella try to do that to her dad who she decided she didn't like him anymore when puberty hit.
 

VictoriaVague

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Avenue Spotlight Award
Shutterbugs' Best
Joined
8/20/12
Messages
3,867
Location
UK
Real Name
Vikki
Titus will close his eyes, really enjoy the scritch and still go for the sucker punch as an extra little treat for himself
 

Skwawk

Strolling the yard
Joined
1/23/16
Messages
87
I checked the box again, and I was a little off. They might not close their eyes, but their eyes will either be downcast or closed. I guess it really depends on what your bird does. If they follow a certain behavior when they bite you, then watch out for that behavior. It may vary from bird to bird.
 

Karen

Biking along the boulevard
Avenue Veteran
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/22/09
Messages
5,041
Who's the author?
..and when was this article written. Much of it sounds old school. We know so much more today that proves much of that perceived hierarchy, repetition step-ups, demanding compliance and subordination is wrong.
 

Skwawk

Strolling the yard
Joined
1/23/16
Messages
87
..and when was this article written. Much of it sounds old school. We know so much more today that proves much of that perceived hierarchy, repetition step-ups, demanding compliance and subordination is wrong.
Written 2001, revised 2013.
 

dragonlady2

Walking the driveway
Avenue Veteran
Joined
12/26/09
Messages
292
Location
Ontario, Canada
Real Name
Helena
My Senegal, Mookie, does something similar. He looks at me sideways and gives me what I call the "winky-wink". A slow couple of blinks meant to encourage me to give him a scritch, but in reality, it is an invitation to his chompfest. Been there twice, not going again. He nailed me good both times. No more scritches unless it's through the bars. He has taught me well....avoid the bite! Gotta love the little bugger though.
 

Wasabisaurus

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
2/2/10
Messages
10,561
Location
Birdsville
It's been a few weeks since Wasabi's tried to sucker bite. I call it sucker bite, not punch. Anyway, if his head is lowered, but he's got an eye on me, no way do I fall for that. He's waiting for his chance. It's been quite a while since he's landed a bite that way.

If he lowers his lead so low that he cannot see my hand at all, it's safe to give him up to three strokes. Four is pushing my luck. Usually when he does let me scratch him, he'll move away from my reach when he's had enough. I don't think he's testing my leadership. I think he's being a brat. He already knows he's boss. It's not such a bad thing. There's some nonsense theory which advocates letting the bird know who is boss. I did not know any better, so I bought into it. It just angered Wasabi. An angry Amazon's bites don't tickle. He's been with us 10 years come June, so I think I know him pretty well. He still lands some bites, like he did a couple weeks ago, but I can pretty much avoid them when I don't have to move him from one cage to the other. He really doesn't appreciate the transportation.
 

Skwawk

Strolling the yard
Joined
1/23/16
Messages
87
Ah, birds. Such feisty, unpredictable creatures.
 

LaSelva

Jogging around the block
Avenue Veteran
Joined
5/22/12
Messages
887
Real Name
David
I wanted to know who she was because of the great liberties she's taking in interpreting behavior, something scientists themselves are very cautious not to do. Take a look at these two books,

Manual of Parrot Behavior: 9780813827490: Medicine & Health Science Books @ Amazon.com

Parrots of the Wild: A Natural History of the World's Most Captivating Birds: Catherine A. Toft, Timothy F. Wright: 9780520239258: Amazon.com: Books

...both are very informative as well as of a high standard for scientific accuracy.


But back to her. She's not a scientist, probably not even basing any of what she's saying on scientific study, yet consider that she believes she knows some very specific things about the birds' thought process during this behavior; what the bird is testing, what the bird is doubting, what they perceive, etc. As well as asserting that a developing bird needs a leader attributing stress to the lack thereof. Fact is she doesn't know any of these things, it's her own anecdote. Stress can be measured in animals but determining the cause of that stress is difficult. The mere handling of an animal to study it can elevate stress hormones.

This is her biography. She calls herself an African Grey expert. Aside from owning two AG's, she doesn't give any reason as to why she is.

Meet Magaret Wright
 
Last edited:

Skwawk

Strolling the yard
Joined
1/23/16
Messages
87
I wanted to know who she was because of the great liberties she's taking in interpreting behavior, something scientists themselves are very cautious not to do. Take a look at these two books,
...
This is her biography. She calls herself an African Grey expert. Aside from owning two AG's, she doesn't give any reason as to why she is.

Meet Magaret Wright
Oh wow. I guess I'll stick with the other book I got, then... :O
 

SueA555

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
8/19/13
Messages
1,778
Location
Orange County, CA
Real Name
Sue Anderson
Joey only does this when he is in his cage. He lets me scritch him for a minute and then shifts his head and tries to bite. i've learned to see this coming, and move my hand.
 

Clueless

Joyriding the Neighborhood
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Avenue Concierge
Joined
11/3/12
Messages
24,153
Secret closed eyes last night while I skritched. Hubby said something was up.

Tonight MC wasn't into his chop. I added nutriberry crumbs and he dove in. Only fair to give Secret some. The bird grabbed a piece from my hand and then grabbed my thumb THROUGH THE CAGE BARS! Yeesh, I know that Secret loves chop but I wasn't taking it.

MC is crabby, Secret has BEEN crabby.....I'm thinking wine or margaritas tomorrow.
 

rompydompy

Walking the driveway
Joined
11/10/15
Messages
251
Location
Michigan
Real Name
Natalie
Both of my birds have done this, but more often than not, I think it's because I'm "not scritching them right." More like a "Hey, stupid, pet me HERE, not there!"
 

Happynme

Rollerblading along the road
Celebirdy of the Month
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
3/23/14
Messages
3,640
Location
Tx
Real Name
carmen
MC is crabby, Secret has BEEN crabby.....I'm thinking wine or margaritas tomorrow.[/QUOTE]
For you or them? Ha!
 
Top