Video "Silver" Macaw Beautiful but is it ethical?

[melissasparrots]

I don't think breeding them is unethical by itself. However, there is a lot of unethical color breeding. The white color is just a gene that is probably recessive so it will be easy to preserve the wild type. The problem as you mentioned is if LOTS of people decide to start breeding macaws for color instead of health. Then you start seeing smaller or larger size, poor feather quality, different body proportions and other problems seeping into even the wild type captive population because so many of them come from a lineage that included some mutations. I don't think I've ever seen a species of small bird that maintained the overall health of the captive population at a high level once mutations started being competitively bred. You can buy healthy cockatiels and lovebirds etc, but the overall shape and look of the species is starting to change, with more dying of health problems way before the birds 30 years ago were even though we are now feeding them so much better.

 

[Ankou]

It's a baby macaw.

It's funny that these videos and pictures of red African Grey's and yellow or white blue and gold macaws mutations are always of the babies.
Why no adult pictures I wonder?
None absolutely no where.

So weird....

I can find adults on google images but it's mostly breeding pairs in joyless wire "aviaries" with nothing but a couple perches and nest box. Any newer, rare mutations seems to get similar results. (And, on Matthew's concerns, lots of mutation birds clearly paired with a bird of the same or another mutation to likely insure they are producing valuable babies rather than wild-types.)

Now, one thought I had on this: it could be as simple as people with these birds in their homes do not want to advertise that they have them online. Pets or breeding pairs. They simply may not have the security of a larger mill-like business operation. That makes sense and is pretty rational.
I've seen prices thrown around online that run from $5,000 upwards of $30,000! Sometimes it's impossible to find a price online, like I tried to google up a figure on these silver macaws and other rare macaw mutations and couldn't. If the breeders won't even post a figure online I honestly cannot even comprehend how much someone would have to pay. Probably best not to advertise to potential thieves that they can walk into your home with a sturdy suitcase and walk out with an animal that will pay off half their mortgage if they can flip it

Another thought, it might be hard to find examples of these birds if they are shared on non-English speaking communities/sites (especially languages that use non-english characters.) I know rare/expensive animals are "in" as a status symbol in certain countries (I mean, $2,000,000 for a Tibetan mastiff puppy!? WHAT?) so some of these birds are likely being bred where we would have almost no access to the information on them too.

 

[Begone]

Just my take on things. What's yours?

When you start breeding for colors and the way animal looks you are really doing it wrong.
I compare that to horses and we can take the Arabian Thoroughbred for an example.
Some do breed them to be only what they think cute. With small ears, big nostrils, and a back that isn't strong enough for riding.
And that is so sad because the origin and pure Arabian Thoroughbred is a very strong horse for riding and the fastest horse in long distances.

Every time I see that they breed for colors and look they are always losing something good.
For me it's better that you breed on strong and healthy animals, not how they look.

Breeding for mutations usually involves breeding closely related animals

Yes and they called it something nice too, breeding line. But if we do the same thing to us they called it inbreeding.
Breeding line and inbreeding is always wrong and will never create a strong line.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I can find adults on google images but it's mostly breeding pairs in joyless wire "aviaries" with nothing but a couple perches and nest box. Any newer, rare mutations seems to get similar results. (And, on Matthew's concerns, lots of mutation birds clearly paired with a bird of the same or another mutation to likely insure they are producing valuable babies rather than wild-types.)

Now, one thought I had on this: it could be as simple as people with these birds in their homes do not want to advertise that they have them online. Pets or breeding pairs. They simply may not have the security of a larger mill-like business operation. That makes sense and is pretty rational.
I've seen prices thrown around online that run from $5,000 upwards of $30,000! Sometimes it's impossible to find a price online, like I tried to google up a figure on these silver macaws and other rare macaw mutations and couldn't. If the breeders won't even post a figure online I honestly cannot even comprehend how much someone would have to pay. Probably best not to advertise to potential thieves that they can walk into your home with a sturdy suitcase and walk out with an animal that will pay off half their mortgage if they can flip it

Another thought, it might be hard to find examples of these birds if they are shared on non-English speaking communities/sites (especially languages that use non-english characters.) I know rare/expensive animals are "in" as a status symbol in certain countries (I mean, $2,000,000 for a Tibetan mastiff puppy!? WHAT?) so some of these birds are likely being bred where we would have almost no access to the information on them too.

I cannot find any adult birds. Please post pictures.

 

[finchly]

weshootbirds.com/images/photos/02_whitescarletmacaw5.jpg

Mutations of the blue and yellow macaw – Eén-01.nl

 

[JLcribber]

Human vanity, ego and self indulgence is so ugly.

 

[SpecialistElbru]

When you start breeding for colors and the way animal looks you are really doing it wrong.

I compare that to horses and we can take the Arabian Thoroughbred for an example.

Some do breed them to be only what they think cute. With small ears, big nostrils, and a back that isn't strong enough for riding.

And that is so sad because the origin and pure Arabian Thoroughbred is a very strong horse for riding and the fastest horse in long distances.

Every time I see that they breed for colors and look they are always losing something good.

For me it's better that you breed on strong and healthy animals, not how they look.

Yes and they called it something nice too, breeding line. But if we do the same thing to us they called it inbreeding.

Breeding line and inbreeding is always wrong and will never create a strong line.

This is usually true, however if you raise this point to an animal breeding person, they will point you to a few exceptions to that rule. There are species of domestic animals where line breeding WILL produce healthy individuals. BUT that is only true because in the past breeders were willing to breed animals with a high sacrifice rate. Animals that did not make the cut were not bread and were not pets, those animals found themselves at the bottom of the food pyramid. That is why I linked to an older post I wrote.

Parrots (other than budgies) generally do not have a high enough (litter size) to temp people to shotgun breeding. I would hate to think about parrot culls going to feed snakes and hawks.

 

[Alien J]

No doubt it is a beautiful bird (Although, I'll admit, I can't think of a single parrot that I don't find beautiful).

Totally agree with you! However, I am usually against breeding to change a being into something nothing like the original! Like we've done with dogs. It's my understanding that bulldogs can no longer give birth naturally... they're heads are too large for the female to pass. We've shrunk they're snouts, wrinkled their skin, smushed their faces, shortened and lengthened their legs and backs...no longer bcuz we need them to do certain jobs with/for us.... simply bcuz our idea of what looks good changes all the time and, mostly, it's about $$$$.

Just recently I saw an article on "Munchkins". These are cats who are being touted as "forever kittens".... In reality these are cats who have literally had their legs bred off! Are they cute? You betcha. Is it right? I don't think so.

 

[ode.to.parrots]

Totally agree with you! However, I am usually against breeding to change a being into something nothing like the original! Like we've done with dogs. It's my understanding that bulldogs can no longer give birth naturally... they're heads are too large for the female to pass. We've shrunk they're snouts, wrinkled their skin, smushed their faces, shortened and lengthened their legs and backs...no longer bcuz we need them to do certain jobs with/for us.... simply bcuz our idea of what looks good changes all the time and, mostly, it's about $$$$.

Just recently I saw an article on "Munchkins". These are cats who are being touted as "forever kittens".... In reality these are cats who have literally had their legs bred off! Are they cute? You betcha. Is it right? I don't think so.

Every time I see a little bulldog puppy with that wrinkly face, my heart cringes.

This video is from a vegan website, but the topic is absolutely relevant to this discussion: (WARNING: I just watched this again and realized some of the video footage is graphic and hard to watch. If you do not want to see the footage, just read the article below instead.)
The Problem With Breeding Pets | Bite Size Vegan

I will always adopt from shelters/rescues, and should I ever get dogs, I will most likely adopt mutts.

 

[expressmailtome]

I cannot find any adult birds. Please post pictures.

Here are just a few of the pictures that I found on Google, including one picture of a wild adult lutino blue and gold macaw:

 

[Bokkapooh]

The lutino ones look really young.

The blue mutation ones I did see a few "adult" blues. But it could be the same bird. And most shown are youngsters.

I just find it odd that there are none of these birds - as adults- in family homes. They're listed for sale and I just find it really odd no one has any pet mature ones. Anywhere. It has me questioning the health of such birds. How many generations of inbreeding are they?

Same goes for the red African Grey's. I do not think Ive ever seen adult red one even as a breeder. Im not claiming photoshop but its just weird. Has me questioning the health of the birds.

 

[iamwhoiam]

Yes and they called it something nice too, breeding line. But if we do the same thing to us they called it inbreeding.
Breeding line and inbreeding is always wrong and will never create a strong line.

When the Lagotto Romagnolo population was almost near extinction some breeders decided to bring them back and a lot of inbreeding/line breeding was involved. When I've read about Lagottos who are very aggressive, if their pedigrees are available, I've taken a look at those and seen the same ancestor listed at least 10 times. I think the worst one was listed about 20 times, could have been more. Bred to sibling, bred to child, bred to niece or nephew, etc. etc. Certain genetic issues also start to pop up with line breeding and inbreeding, so maybe they are breeding for a certain characteristic but they wind up getting medical problems, aggression and other issues.

 

[feathergirl]

This came on recommend videos for me.

While beautiful, I really wonder what's the point? And what are the unintended consequences of messing with a birds genes like that? I don't really like it when breeding is done solely for looks in any animal. I know it's done all the time and that includes the bird world, but it does leave me feeling uneasy. Like looks are put before health.

Plus birds are alright beautiful the way they are. I don't think this "sliver" Macaw is any better looking than the Macaws already out there. Just my take on things. What's yours?

This trait is called Leucism. Here are a few links if you would like to read more about it

Leucism and Albinism in Birds — Ivory-billed Woodpecker

Why white's not so white, after all: The story of leucism - The Berkeley Science Review

Leucism - Wikipedia

 

[Begone]

Certain genetic issues also start to pop up with line breeding and inbreeding, so maybe they are breeding for a certain characteristic but they wind up getting medical problems, aggression and other issues.

That's what I meant but you are using so much better words then me.
My believe is the first line if you line breed/inbreed goes on temper/mentally defective. And after line breed one if you continue is also goes on physical defects.
But it will never be good. And I have seen that on horses, dogs and birds.

 

[aooratrix]

Regular people don't have these as pets because they make Hys and RTB2s look cheap. I don't know if they're breeding close relatives together, so I can't speak to that. Just because they have mutations doesn't mean they're doing that. I do know most of these mutations are in Australia, Europe, and Asia.

 

[Alien J]

Human vanity, ego and self indulgence is so ugly.

Amen to that! Sadly, it's getting uglier by the minute.

 

[Monica]

Apparently, the "silver" B&G's are selling for around $100,000 per bird.... how many *PET* owners will be able to afford that?!!!??!?! (at least $65k...)


Also, here's the same mutation in cockatiels!

And.......... 7 years ago, I posted pictures of these mutations! Sadly, many of the links no longer work....

B&G Macaw Mutations | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum



I did include more pictures 4 years ago... some of which still work! (although the "spangle" color is not an actual mutation...)

I want one!! | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum





"Silver" is a combination of blue and opaline in blue and golds. In scarlets, it's simply just blue.




Both mutations, in the B&G, have occurred in the wild. Here's a video of a wild opaline.

And a picture of a blue blue and gold in this thread.

What type of Macaw is this? | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

 

[CallieCadmoor]

The only reason we don't see more of these rare mutations in the wild, is because of adaptation. Those that are not coloured to suit the environment are picked off by predators before maturity and so don't get to breed. Therefore the mutation becomes rarer. Even dominant genes become rare (I think a human example is northern Europe, majority of people have blue eyes even though blue is the recessive gene)
So I have no issue if a baby born just so happens to have that gene. But by trying to bring out that gene more, chances are you bring out other genes that became rarer because they too weren't suitable - disease susceptibility, agression and many others.
I say if the colour became rare, there's a reason for it but of course humans love to exploit. Not bashing anyone who supports colour breeding! I would have zero problems with it if it didn't bring out any other issues that are dormant.
Also blows my mind that people purely breed the birds to sell to someone to breed and sell. Like surely no one will take them in just to live because of costs so why are they even being bred so much??
(And sorry! My bio Final is tomorrow and is on this topic)