Parrot species with the MOST smarts?

[Bokkapooh]

That's true, Mercedez; it's about understanding and communication

This is where I feel you believe that the communication part is only cognitive talking. If that is so I strongly disagree and my reasons stated in my other post.

No one has ever said that the ability to repeat words through mimicry meant that a bird was intelligent, quite the contrary, the word "parrot" used as a verb means to talk repetitively without meaning.

It's not only about being able to communicate in human language that defines a species intelligence...

Well, I also have to say that no amount of training could make me a good nuclear scientist! There are people who are incredibly book smart and couldn't survive on the street to save their souls and vice versa. Intelligence is in the eye of the beholder truly.

I defintely agree with you.

 

[Holiday]

I'm wondering if it has to do with the brain size at all.

It doesn't have to do with size overall (which is nice, since according to the brain size theory, my big ole 6'4" brother ought to be smarter than I am ). In birds, comparing across species (not within species), it has to do with the proportion of a particular type of brain structure. I read an article once that explained that this structure in birds (the hyperstriatum ventrale) roughly corresponds to the human prefrontal cortex (the part involved in planning, complex cognitive behaviors, decision making, etc). The group of birds with the largest is the corvid family--crows and jays. I think that the group in the parrot family with the largest is probably the Kea, again. But, don't quote me on that because I'm not sure. I read somewhere that macaws are very well endowed as well, but I don't know how they compare with other commonly kept parrots.

 

[Bokkapooh]

It doesn't have to do with size overall (which is nice, since according to the brain size theory, my big ole 6'4" brother ought to be smarter than I am ). In birds, comparing across species (not within species), it has to do with the proportion of a particular type of brain structure. I read an article once that explained that this structure in birds (the hyperstriatum ventrale) roughly corresponds to the human prefrontal cortex (the part involved in planning, complex cognitive behaviors, decision making, etc). The group of birds with the largest is the corvid family--crows and jays. I think that the group in the parrot family with the largest is probably the Kea, again. But, don't quote me on that because I'm not sure. I read somewhere that macaws are very well endowed as well, but I don't know how they compare with other commonly kept parrots.

Now that is very interesting. I hope more research is done on this, and if all parrot species are like this or all birds?

 

[Holiday]

This is where I feel you believe that the communication part is only cognitive talking. If that is so I strongly disagree and my reasons stated in my other post.

I have no idea why you would think I am dismissing non-verbal communication. What I am saying is that meaningful verbal communication is one form of intelligence and has strong implications for intelligence in other areas. In other words, to put it simply: people believed that parrots couldn't speak with meaning; thus, they thought birds were stupid. Now, they know they can speak with meaning, and so they think they are not stupid. This has led them to study other manifestations of intelligence such as problem solving, etc, which is good.

As to non-verbal communication in birds, there is clearly body language and other behaviors that are used to convey meanings to other birds and to humans--although birds, like humans, generally communicate by vocalizing (notice I said "vocalizing," which means making sounds, not just using speech).

 

[Holiday]

Now that is very interesting. I hope more research is done on this, and if all parrot species are like this or all birds?

The amount/proportion of this structure varies from species to species. Some have more; some have less. The fact that crows have the most lines up very nicely with the fact that they also perform extremely well on problem-solving tests.

I don't know which parrot species has the most, but I do know that it varies.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I have no idea why you would think I am dismissing non-verbal communication.

You only responded about "talking" vs. "cognitive talking". When someone writes or responds a whole post on one subject without replying to the other parts, it gives a sense of dismissal. When everything but a certain part is dismissed, it makes one feel that.the person responding feels that is the only wortth while thing. In that.case the being able to "talk" aka mimic vs cognitive talk.

And can you define "meaningful verbal communication"? I can clearly deferentiate my birds "sounds" and "noises" they make to.build an understanding as to what they are trying to say to me.

 

[Holiday]

You only responded about "talking" vs. "cognitive talking". When someone writes or responds a whole post on one subject without replying to the other parts, it gives a sense of dismissal. When everything but a certain part is dismissed, it makes one feel that.the person responding feels that is the only wortth while thing. In that.case the being able to "talk" aka mimic vs cognitive talk.

And can you define "meaningful verbal communication"? I can clearly deferentiate my birds "sounds" and "noises" they make to.build an understanding as to what they are trying to say to me.

I try not to use the term "talking" since I try to differentiate between "vocalizing" and "mimicking" and "verbal communication." Remember, it isn't me that is making these distinctions. These are the distinctions used by people who write on the subject.

Again, vocalizing isn't recognized as proof of intelligence. People have known since the beginning of time that birds can chirp, whistle, sing or scream. In scientific terms, this means little. It doesn't prove that they have the ability to think, reason, or meaningfully communicate. Do they use sound for simple instinctive communications, like marking territory, expressing an emotion like fear, or trying to attract a mate? Yes, but again, this cannot be used to show that they have "intelligence" like human beings. Mimicry of human speech (the simple repetition of sounds without understanding the meanings behind them) also doesn't prove intelligence.

What does offer evidence of intelligence?

1) Speaking in context--when a bird associates a word with a particular time or place or situation. A bird that says "food" when you hand him food may not know what the word *means* but he knows that you often say that to him when he gets fed. So, he associates the word with the situation. This is learned behavior and shows a level of intelligence.

2) Speaking with meaning--a bird that actually knows that "food" means "food" is showing a form of intelligence that many people for many years denied that birds had. If they can do this, it clearly demonstrates intelligence that was thought to be uniquely human, and it was this form of communication/intelligence that Dr. Pepperberg spent years of her life trying to show that Greys can use. There are still people in the scientific community, however, who do not believe that parrots actually have this form of intelligence. There are people who are strongly invested in the notion that people are unique in having this ability and that birds only mimic or, at best, speak in context.

Now, if you try to say that a bird that chirps when he's hungry is as smart as a bird that can say "food" and mean "food" then you are essentially saying the same thing as the people who would deny that birds can use words with meaning--because that's what they say--that all birds are essentially doing is making sounds that express emotion or desire. You would, in essence, be denying the importance of Dr. Pepperberg's life's work and the work of others who have struggled/are struggling to prove that birds can, in fact, understand the meaning of words.

 

[Holiday]

Just to demonstrate better, here's a very famous video of Alex, the African Grey (which many of us are very familiar with). Notice how vehemently Dr. Pepperberg stresses at the end that he knows what the questions and words he's saying "mean." Her experiments were designed to show this very thing:

 

[lzver]

Saemma, you always ask very interesting questions and definitely get conversation going

Very interesting thread. When I first got Lucy and Jessie (going on 5 years ago), never in a million years did I expect them to be as smart as they are. They definitely mimic what they hear, but they use a lot of words or noises in context.

I'm amazed by them every day. I can only imagine what its like to live with the smarter species like Greys, Macaws, Toos, etc. I hope to experience living with a Grey some day. They completely fascinate me.

 

[Holiday]

I can only imagine what its like to live with the smarter species like Greys, Macaws, Toos, etc. I hope to experience living with a Grey some day. They completely fascinate me.

I would love to live with a Grey. I'm fascinated by their abilities too But, I am allergic to dust, and so I won't get the chance. My macaws do some amazing things, though. They can clearly speak in context, and sometimes I feel that they do understand the meanings of words. Of course, that's just my un-scientific opinion. But, just for instance, the other day, Max was sitting on a shelf with his head turned completely upside down, looking at me eagerly. It looked unbelievably comical, and I started laughing at him. "Cute?" he asked, "Cute?" "Yes," I said, "that is very cute" Now, does he know what "cute" is, as a concept, and was he intentionally trying to *be* cute? I can't *prove* it, but I *believe* so.

At any rate, they are fun and amazing, and that's why I spend so much time on this board when I should be getting work done. Okay, off I go....

 

[Angelicarboreals]

I think it depends on how you are wanting to define smart. I have a grey and a cockatoo, and I definitely consider the two of them to be the smartest. Ernie, the grey, can tell you what he is thinking and seems to really pay attention to what is going on around him but Wesley is better at manipulating mommy to get her way, and figuring her way through any puzzle you put in front of her.

 

[JLcribber]

I'm amazed by them every day. I can only imagine what its like to live with the smarter species like Greys, Macaws, Toos, etc. I hope to experience living with a Grey some day. They completely fascinate me.

Make sure your seatbelt is buckled up tight. It's one heck of a roller coaster ride.

 

[Saemma]

I often have to remind myself that Emma is not a little *person with feathers*.

Never need to do this with SAchi and Mabel. They are most certainly my *companion pet parrots*

Wish I could send Emma off to visit everybody. She is pretty exceptional in my books.

 

[KimKimWilliamson]

Wish I could send Emma off to visit everybody. She is pretty exceptional in my books.

I wish you could to!!! WHen and if that happens, Im first! Im close! ANd my husband is from Quebec - does that get me brownie points?? LOL

 

[Saemma]

I wish you could to!!! WHen and if that happens, Im first! Im close! ANd my husband is from Quebec - does that get me brownie points?? LOL

Sure!!

 

[Shade]

I wish you could to!!! WHen and if that happens, Im first! Im close! ANd my husband is from Quebec - does that get me brownie points?? LOL

I'm closer and from Quebec

You can get Emma after me

 

[Saemma]

I'm closer and from Quebec

You can get Emma after me

Yes, yes...

 

[Chicklette]

I think it's all up to the individual bird. My IRN is EXTREMELY smart so is Aly, Boomer is not smart at all, lol. That's why I love him. But each bird has different personalities so I think it's up to that specific bird.

 

[Danita]

Macaws are SO smart, they have the ability to plan, and take numerous steps to accomplish something. Our macaw is super smart.
Greys are smart, but they are mimickers, they don't seem to plan like a macaw would.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Now, if you try to say that a bird that chirps when he's hungry is as smart as a bird that can say "food" and mean "food" then you are essentially saying the same thing as the people who would deny that birds can use words with meaning--

Now I think that is going a bit too far to assume that is what Im saying. I am by NO MEANS saying a bird who can cognitiviely speak a human language isnt using the words with meaning. ALL Im saying is that a bird who uses a certain squawk is just as intelligent as if a bird used a human word in that place, to mean IM HUNGRY.

For example: Some people can speak Spanish AND English while others cannot, the ones who cannot dont make them any less intelligent than those who can. JMHO.

And yes a bird is just as intelligent, and possibly even MORE SO (depending on the bird), as the bird who can use a human word, for the meaning its trying to get.

I honestly have my doubts, LOTS OF DOUBTS, with the Alex Program, so I honestly dont use that at all when representing a birds intelligence, as in the videos, all I see is a bird has been conditioned to REPEAT certain things in certain situations. I see similarity when I see videos of clicker trained/trick trained parrots. Before the owner asks the cue, the bird does it. I see too much of a similarity. Ofcourse that just the videos, in real life it could be a lot different. And to me, It just shows how big of a memory these guys has. Just my opinion... OH and whenever I see videos of Alex I want to cry, he looks so sad and often times you can see he is stressed out in the situation he is presented with as he wants to 'GO HOME'. He was just a lab bird after all, regardless of what Pepperburg and colleagues said on that... AGAIN this is just my opinion. The videos do not show me anything. I guess it go by the perspective of the person viewing it, huh?