Urgent NOT emergency but extremely concerned... experienced parronts please help

[Spacerella]

I wonder if commenting on my own post counts.

 

[Spacerella]

Oh ok, I guess it does!

 

[Spacerella]

Hi @Hankmacaw ,

Do you think that the fact he's being treated via nebulizer rather than (shots? oral medication? How are antibiotics and antifungals usually administered?), that could be decreasing efficacy of the medication? I've read that nebuliser is very good for respiratory problems, but at the same time I found out later that this vet "likes to take a holistic approach" so I'm wondering if there is a chance that if they only prescribed them to placate me, they the medication and method of treating isn't as effective/aggressive as other vets would choose. What do you think?

This is his current regime (which ends tomorrow):

1 drop of Meloxicam twice daily - I was told this is for the inflammation around his syrinx caused by the VA deficiency. I looked it up and it's an NSAID; basically in the same class as aspirin/ibuprofen etc.

Antibiotic for the nebuliser is Gentam - once a day for 20-30min (until the liquid has fully evaporated)

Antifungal is Amphotericin - same method of dosing as the Gentam.

 

[Spacerella]

@mythic55 , yes that's what the veterinary nurse from a non-avian vet told me when I was calling around. I haven't bathed him like that since - I just gave him a bowl to dip himself in, which he was VERY grateful for as he's moulting and itchy... but he still wheezed again afterwards so I haven't bathed him since.

 

[Spacerella]

@Macawnutz , thank you for telling me what I should be asking for. Do you mind telling me what CBC stands for?

Also, is there any truth in something I heard - for cases like Dragon's, where his voice is affected, the area is probably the syrinx which is very low in the body... that means mouth swab may not be sufficient and they would need to go all the way down to get a culture... which means general anaesthesia, just to get a swab... That sounds so scary to me. Is it true?

 

[Spacerella]

@JAM I'm trying to reach my 25 posts so I can PM you (sorry everyone on this thread for making it so messy!), but if you happen to see this before that happens do you think you could give me the name of the vet you recommend? I'm in Qld and have two options within a reasonable distance but someone in the Conure Crazy forum on FB told me about a fantastic avian vet in Melbourne who is good with phone consults and seems to be on the lower end of the $$$ spectrum. I'm wondering if we're thinking of the same one... Oh and the differences between AU vets and US vets, can you please elaborate? I know you're always supposed to go to an "AVIAN VET"... I don't know how that works in Australia. Is there a particular degree or association they need to be a part of? I've been warned off "bird and exotics specialists" before, but when I asked if they were an avian vet they said yes. Now I'm wondering if there was something else I should have asked to clarify.

 

[Spacerella]

Figured I'd show you guys what kind of condition he was in that the vet diagnosed him with VA deficiency immediately by looking at him:

This was taken about a week after the vet visit and basically looks like how he was when I took him in... EXCEPT the feathers on his upper middle back, the ones that look more green than turquoise - they are new feathers and don't have barring. (side note - why do they look so much greener than turquoise? Could it be related to excessive amounts of Vitamin A? Or is this normal?)

The other feathers obviously have a lot of barring on them. Vet confirmed they were stress bars and I tend to agree that some of them are, but when I looked carefully I noticed that a lot of the feathers are more "tattered" than "barred", if that makes sense. Read somewhere that rough play with toys while on his back can do that, and he DID used to do those things (until recently when he stopped being so playful...).

Brutal 100% honesty, what do you think of the black marks? I should mention that he did NOT have them when I got him from his breeder... and he's been moulting, but not any of the larger feathers that I can tell.

Which is another topic in itself - I thought that they lose their flight feathers first? Is there a reason why he seems to be losing his head and back feathers but not any flight feathers?

 

[Heather F]

Flight and tail feathers usually moult out very slowly and gradually, a pair at a time, so they don't lose their flight and balance. It's not unusual at all for him to be sending out a blizzard of little feathers but very few big ones.

I agree that a second opinion is in order. I wonder why the vet is thinking vitamin A deficiency and why no standard blood tests. In your other thread you mentioned some weird colour changes in his eyes and feathers and I think it is entirely possible that they are due to excess carotene from the vitamin treatments, like how our skin can turn orange if we binge on carrots.

 

[Lady Jane]

CBC stands for complete blood count.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Yes the Meloxicam is for pain and for inflammation - it is a very good medication for those purposes.
The Amphotericin B is the most effective medication for fungal infections, but can be quite toxic on the kidneys and liver. It is not nearly as toxic when given by nebulizer. Macawnutz and I use Voraconazole for Asper as it it non-toxic and quite effective. Itraconazole is another accepted medication for fungal infections, but again has toxic effects. The Gentamycin is an antibiotic and is broad spectrum. It also has some toxicity, but again not nearly as bad nebulized as giving by injection or mouth.

Like Macawnutz, I would be giving him probiotics while on that strong of medications. Antibiotics and fungicides kill the good flora in his digestive system as well as the bad - although this is not as critical with nebulization. The meds he is being given and the method are pretty standard for Aspergillosis. It is not unusual for Aspergillosis to present in the syrnix - and often is the first sign of Asper in that the granuloma causes a change in their voice. If he is being treated for Asper you should get the CBC and an Asper titer.

 

[zoo mom]

@Spacerella you are at 22 posts. Only 3 more to go.

 

[Macawnutz]

Yup, new vet time.

He is not humoring you with Amphotericin B, I would make DARN sure your bird need that medication before prescribing it. A mouth swab is just that, they swab the roof of the mouth and back of the throat. A crop swab has to be swapped into the crop area and that can be difficult to watch, you should not need one, if you ever do just close your eyes.

If they are concerned about asper they should do a asper titer as ML explained. Your vet gave you some heavy medications for believing it is a vit A problem.

 

[Spacerella]

@Heather F,

"In your other thread you mentioned some weird colour changes in his eyes and feathers and I think it is entirely possible that they are due to excess carotene from the vitamin treatments, like how our skin can turn orange if we binge on carrots."

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking!! The fact that he got all those pinkish tummy feathers, which I didn't think was possible in blue mutation birds, and the fact that humans esp babies can and do get yellow/orange skin from eating too many carrots. I'm so confused I don't know what to think!

 

[Spacerella]

@zoo mom YES! Thanks to you I found out how to PM, so it's only fitting that my 25th is to you!

 

[zoo mom]

@zoo mom YES! Thanks to you I found out how to PM, so it's only fitting that my 25th is to you!

We try to help as much as we can. Even if it is how to navigate the forum so you can get the information you need.

 

[PeppysPal]

He just looked at the bird and said "vitamin A deficiency"? Whaaaaaat?

 

[Spacerella]

@Macawnutz, thank you for the valuable information! It's good to know that those medications are effective for treating bacterial/fungal infections - I couldn't find much info on them so I was thinking they might be outdated or not very strong. It actually wasn't my vet who suggested aspergillosis. It was me being neurotic the other night, looking up any possible causes for his symptoms because he's not improving. At the beginning, the vets were going to keep him for a few more days, give him a few more vitamin injections, but I brought him home because I had a bad first impression and I didn't really trust that they would be gentle with him (they DID treat him very well, for the record!!!).

I'm going to ask them tomorrow if they actually thought there was possibility of an infection or if they just prescribed the meds because I was so adamant there was no way it could be a VA deficiency...

I will definitely have the proper blood test to see if he has the deficiency. Hopefully a regular vet close to me who sees birds would be able to do at least the blood test, it would make things a lot easier if I could first rule that out, and then do all the other stuff at the other avian vet.

I am going to feel like an absolute idiot if it turns out that it WAS a Vitamin A deficiency all this time.... I mean if those antibiotics/antifungals are so effective, you'd think he'd have shown improvement by now. It just doesn't make sense to me how he could have had VA deficiency. Vitamin D maybe, because he wasn't getting sunlight. I've heard that D and A work together so it's possible that the lack of D contributed to A not being absorbed? I don't know, just speculating at this point.

Main point is, THANK YOU for your help. You have all been amazing. I was so stressed out this weekend but I feel so much more optimistic now

 

[Macawnutz]

He just looked at the bird and said "vitamin A deficiency"? Whaaaaaat?

That is most commonly how it is diagnosed.

 

[Spacerella]

@Hankmacaw , I keep confusing you and Macawnutz but your last comment was so informative. Thank you so much. Tomorrow I have a lot of discussing to do with three different vets and I feel a million times more informed after the help I've had here.

Regarding the probiotics, are there any types that you recommend? I used to take some sort of probiotic myself for occasional IBS, it was the kind you keep in the fridge or it goes off... Would natural yogurt with live cultures be ok or should I get him the powder capsules?

 

[Spacerella]

@PeppysPal, to be honest that's what I thought too. He said he sees it all the time, which I understand because I'm sure a lot of the birds he sees are fed all seed diets etc... His words were "I can tell just from looking at him and what you're telling me that he is suffering Vitamin A deficiency".

That just made zero sense to me because A. I didn't feel like he let me explain how he's fed, and B. I've been doing a lot of things wrong with my bird, but the ONE thing I always did was to chop up 2-4 types of fruit and 2-4 types of veg every night for him. I would give him his vegetables first thing in the morning to make sure he ate them, then I'd give him the fruit and pellets. The vet did say that he was 3grams overweight, and said I was feeding him too much fruit. I thought I was following the 60% pellet, 20% fruit 20% vegetables regime... but who knows, when I look back, there was always so much pellet wastage on the floor he may not have been ingesting enough. My breeder just told me that she recommends 80-90% pellets so I may have been giving him much too little maintenence food He has free access to pellets now though, and I've started feeding fruit one day and veg the next day - he won't have as much fun with variety but at least I'll be able to monitor his intake more closely.

PS @Macawnutz, can they diagnose just from looking at his exterior appearance? He diagnosed him BEFORE he looked at the choanal pappilae and his feet. Both times he looked a little surprised that they weren't what he was telling me to expect. He did say "you must have caught it early", so... who knows... I am just glad to be this empowered with the information gleaned from here. Feel so much less left in the dark, know what my options are and what to expect. Can't thank you all enough!!!!!