Need dog advice

[birdle]

So I finally got my dream of having a dog. We are fostering-to-adopt a 1 year old border collie/lab/pit mix and he's been here about a week. He's pretty nice and leaves the cages alone pretty well and is potty trained, super quiet and non-destructive. So i guess the only thing wrong is he has grabbed my hand or wrist 3 times now and applied pressure and I am starting to worry it might escalate to a bite.

The first time I sat down next to him as he was laying there was rubbing his belly and he randomly quickly turned around and grabbed my wrist/hand and applied enough pressure to leave marks for a few minutes after and only let go when I yelled no. The second time we had just finished playing and I was again petting him when he reached out and grabbed me, the third time we had just gotten done playing when I was sitting with him and had my hand on his back when he grabbed me. I think it's a warning to not touch him. He does not do this to my bf at all. the dog also tends to look at me from the sides of his eyes and is constantly staring at me without blinking. I am not real experienced and have no experience with aggression. Any advice on how to handle this when it happens and on what I should maybe do with him? I'm really torn as he's mellow and calm with the animals but gives me an odd feeling.

 

[MyAussieFriends]

I have no advice to give - but I'm sure there's lots of dog people here who will have some suggestions.

 

[Greycloud]

It sounds to me that this boy is very nervous and unsure of you. I would be extremely careful around him. I have alerted a friend who is a dog trainer and hopefully she will reply.

 

[Bartleby]

(he) gives me an odd feeling

Definitely pay attention to your gut.

Also, the tried and true advice for any behavioral issue is always to seek in-person professional advice. The thing is without someone actually seeing the entire interaction and catching the myriad and subtle signs that dogs give off it is impossible to give sound situation specific advice over the Internet.

Having said that, the dog isn't aggressive....if he is giving you whale eye (looking at you sideways) he is very clearly anxious about you or something you are doing. Which doesn't mean you are in the all clear, most dog bites are fear related and not aggression. So you are spot on being concerned about his behavior. He's also giving you pretty clear indications that he doesn't like what you are doing when he's gripping you with his teeth. So really you should stop doing the things that cause him to grip you and seek professional advice now.

If he is a foster then you need to absolutely contact the rescue or shelter you are fostering through and make them aware of these issues. It is unfair to him (and you) to keep them out of the loop. Most organizations like that have at least a couple go-to trainers/professionals that can help you work through what exactly is going on. It may be a simple matter of you guys working on trust building exercises together and the trainer helping you learn how to read him better. Or it may be something deeper and more significant.....but someone with expertise needs to help you in real life, not over the web.

 

[Aubrey]

Trust issues for sure. You (not bf sines he already trusts and is ok with him) should be the one in control of resources. Food, toys, treats aka anything the dog wants. That will build trust. Praise the dog lavishly, with words and foods, but it seems like you shouldn't touch him much at this time.

I agree about seeing a trainer or taking a anxious dog class.

 

[birdle]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I feel he is a bit unsure of me too. Or something is off. I was also taught whale eyes means anxiety so I've examined my behavior and the one thing in common with all this "grabbing" is I'm touching him, so for now I'm gonna try to handle him less but it's just the dog and I tonight so idk how well that will go. I don't crowd him, stand over him, hug him or stare at him so I'm not sure what's going on. Since the first day he's got here he's acted different towards me compared to how he acts with my boyfriend. So I should attempt to touch him less and also give him treats that sounds good. I've been giving him treats and reaffirming good behaviors but I just feel that I may get bit. Keep the suggestions coming thanks everyone!

 

[birdle]

Oh and I contacted the rescues trainer and they're going to work with me but I'm just super I guess skittish with this dog now so if I can't get over my fear no matter how irrational I can't handle the dog. I was bit in the face as a child and am leery of bites

 

[Aubrey]

The dog may have had a bad experience with women. So, you just have to show him you're dependable and trustworthy. They definitely can sense fear! Can smell it like a shark. Lol.

I really hope things work out with this dog, but you shouldn't have to live with one you're scared of.

 

[birdle]

The dog may have had a bad experience with women. So, you just have to show him you're dependable and trustworthy. They definitely can sense fear! Can smell it like a shark. Lol.

I really hope things work out with this dog, but you shouldn't have to live with one you're scared of.

Possibly, he was a stray so they don't have his history but his previous foster parent was a woman and she said she had no issues with humping or grabbing so it's just with me. I really do like him as he's mellow and the size dog I wanted but I wanted a dog to relieve stress and feel safe not to be scared and stressed.. Lol that's just life though

 

[Bartleby]

Oh and I contacted the rescues trainer and they're going to work with me but I'm just super I guess skittish with this dog now so if I can't get over my fear no matter how irrational I can't handle the dog. I was bit in the face as a child and am leery of bites

Dogs can sense anxiety/fear/concern/uncertainty. So you may be smack dab in the middle of a negative feedback loop right now. For whatever reason the dog was anxious with you, then you became anxious with the dog. The dog senses that and says "see, I was right to be anxious" and becomes more anxious, you in turn have the same reaction and things continue to escalate. Breaking that cycle is something a good trainer can help you work toward. You just need to be upfront about the issues and get in person observations.

In the interim, I'd say that not touching him is the best course of action. But you still do need to have interactions to build a positive relationship. Do you have a clicker? Do you feel comfortable clicker training? With shaping you do not need to physically touch the dog ever! Loading the clicker and then doing some simple shaping behavior will go a long way to building a positive relationship for the long term. Keep things low key, simple and very loose. Don't set lofty goals or try for complex behaviors. Make the session short and enjoyable for all.

 

[Aubrey]

^^^^ Good post!

 

[JLcribber]

Oh and I contacted the rescues trainer and they're going to work with me but I'm just super I guess skittish with this dog now so if I can't get over my fear no matter how irrational I can't handle the dog. I was bit in the face as a child and am leery of bites

You're going to have to get over the fear. They can smell fear like stink on poo. If you don't trust the dog the dog will never trust you. It's the energy.

 

[greys4u]

do you have any history about this dog, why is he being fostered, there may be some problems you may not know about. Be on your toes, dont let him smell your fear.

 

[birdle]

@Bartleby thank you for the advice! nice post. I was planning on doing some simple clicker training starting with just target. haven't done it yet. If I am gonna keep this dog I really do need a trainer to come into the house I think but since I am already nervous I am not sure how well that that will help me. I just have never had a rescue dog and since I don't know his history I'm super wary.

@JLcribber I agree he knows I'm nervous. What's weird is I wasn't wary or anything til he grabbed me the first time and since then when I am handling him I keep just thinking he's gonna whip his head around again and get me good. Not a good situation

@greys4u he came in stray but was adopted from a NM shelter as a puppy and chipped before he went missing. so this year is just a blank period in his history. he passed the shelter evaluation then passed the rescue evaluation and in his previous foster homes did not show any signs of grabbing people/being fearful. just with me. I really know nothing about him at all so I've just been guessing. I know everyone says don't show fear but it really is extremely hard as I know he can smell adrenaline etc things I have no control of.

 

[JLcribber]

Can't speak for anyone else but if that dog latches onto my wrist, arm whatever unprovoked, it's going to get a very hard knee in the chest. It will realize immediately that I am not someone to be fooled with. Nothing but respect for the dog but it works both ways. It's not a bird.

 

[Newbie GCC]

Congrats on adopting! I would love to see pictures of him! Such an interesting mix of breeds!
Border Collies are highly intellegent. I have had borders and border mixes for 20 years and they are the absolute best! If he got the brains of the border, training should be fairly easy. The one thing I noticed about the grabs was that every time he did grab, touch was somewhere in the belly or back. I would keep all petting to the head and neck area for the time being. He may have had issues with another female previously or be sensitive in that area. Has he been vet checked by your vet? I know the shelters have them checked, but they see so many animals for little or no pay and things are missed. My Black Jack had bumps all over his face and ears that my vet biopsied. It had not been seen by the shelter vet. He had been shot in the face by something (we are guessing rock salt since there were no pellets or rocks found in the biopsy) and thankfully they are finally clearing up.
High energy dogs need a lot of excersize. Make sure you take him for walks. Try a harness instead of a collar for walks. It has worked well for my adopted border/whippet mix. He calms down as soon as it is on. And since he was not leash trained, I have more control without worrying about him hurting his neck by pulling on the leash with only a collar. Play fetch with a ball or stick. Lots of praise and a treat every time he brings it back to you.
As others have said, dogs can smell fear. Have confidence and show him you are confident in your role as pack leader. Lots of praise and treats for good behaviours, distraction for infractions and only a stern "NO". I would not raise a hand to discipline. It will only give him a reason to not trust you.
A trainer will be able to help. I hope you and your new baby can work everything out and you both learn to trust each other. Dogs are such wonderful companions!

 

[EkkieLuv]

Is he reacting to a particular area that you touch each time? Is there a possibility that he has some pain or discomfort and reacting to that? I've fostered dogs for many years. That would be my 1st thought. Whenever we've had nervous or anxious ones they've tended to try to removing themselves from the uncomfortable situation rather than reacting with a bite - unless they feel trapped. And some of them simply don't like being touched in certain areas like down their back or their feet. If you can determine that he's is not reacting to pain then start working on desensitizing him to what he IS reacting to. Someone mentioned clicker training and that's a great place to start!! Karen Pryor Clicker Training | The Leader in Positive Reinforcement Training has awesome info on the subject. I hope that helps!!

 

[birdle]

@JLcribber I haven't kneed him as I thought that if he is anxious that might make it worse. I do say a stern no which he responds to but I do NOT want to be grabbed in the first place. I am not interested in working with a potentially aggressive dog, I don't have it in me. Sorry dog rescuers

@Newbie GCC thanks we haven't adopted him yet he is just being "fostered" on a trial basis in our house. He is very smart. I am not really sure I believe there's border collie in him as I grew up with exclusively border collies he does not seem like one in any way and he seems more like a pit/lab/dane. He's got some brindle in the light. The first and hardest grab I think may have been in part because he was on new food and had super bad diarrhea that morning. But the other times no. I have been petting him around the head/neck I just wonder why he is like this only with me and nobody else. He also spent the better part of last night just staring at me without blinking so I put him in his crate. He is also super low energy. He wakes up for food times and for walks then once he goes back inside he falls asleep.

@EkkieLuv I have noticed he doesn't seem to want me to touch him really anywhere at times. Some times he comes up to me and seems to want attention but then I give it to him his tail stops moving and he becomes still. then I leave him alone and he continues like that for several minutes. I praise and treat him when it's wagging but then when I come up to him his tail stops and he will often look at me sideways. I'm good at reading body language and those are all "go away" things. My boyfriend can touch him everywhere and he's fine. he has grabbed my boyfriend in play but no other times. And this dog doesn't move away from me to "avoid the bite" he stays right where he is and eventually I get uncomfortable and leave.

again, thanks guys these posts make my brain work around these problems

 

[JLcribber]

I'm afraid this is not the right dog for you to "learn" on as your first dog. He's going to need an experienced handler.

 

[birdle]

I'm afraid this is not the right dog for you to "learn" on as your first dog. He's going to need an experienced handler.

We're going to work with him a couple sessions with a positive reinforcement trainer to see if we can pinpoint what's going on and fix it while building a relationship with the dog. I'm not ready to give up without trainer help but if after that I still feel unsure I won't be keeping a dog that I am wary of.