I'd like to see this subforum discontinued

[roxynoodle]

I guess I would rather it stay, but if people don't actually have anything helpful to contribute to someone asking questions, that they refrain from posting here. This should be an area breeders can discuss various aspects of breeding without being bashed. People have the rest of the forum to express their opinions about breeding and this area should be off limits to that.

 

[cosmolove]

When I first got into birds I was 100% wanting and planning on breeding my lovebirds. I'm glad I got to a forum (which wasn't actually this one, this was pre-AA) that told my silly little 15 yr old self the truth! I got quite a bit of harsh feedback but from that it actually made me THINK about what I wanted versus what I should do. After all of that I was a little upset at first that it wasn't all rainbows and everyone saying I should do it but I actually went and researched and realized breeding was not for you.

 

[Jan]

No, it won't solve much as said above and it will only have others posting in other forums to ask their questions. I know I've said this a few times and always get shunned over it but majority of pet owners really think they know more than the "normal" caring breeder. There are two classes which one is pet ownership and one is breeders... the two generally do not mix... even though their bird they own has in reality came from a breeder early on. As a breeder I've always felt degraded from those who own a parrot(s).

I've always been a very responsible breeder. I'm sorry to say, no one especially now a days breeds birds just solely for the love of it and not have money in mind... it just isn't reality. To set up to breed takes a lot of money if you do it right. Some people get careless in the way they set up. There are a lot of shifty people who do set up large and yes it is for the money but also they do not have any compassion for the bird's sake either. I've seen some very sad situations of what people think is a good set up.

For the years I bred parrots, I never ever recouped my expenses and time involved in the whole thing, the food, the vet, the caging, toys, the building and other things. Even though it was a business I claimed on my tax return it still was not enough to help me on expenses.

Over the time I've bred birds and as time went on I see how parrot ownership has changed greatly. While caring for parrots has improved and the knowledge is greater than ever but also due to forums and a like, it also gives a lot of mixed information from right and wrong. Only because what one person does who thinks it is right is not right to do coming from the next person... it just goes on and on.

People come here to ask because they truly may not know how to go about breeding or hand feeding and want advice and yet people here are yanking their chain... so what if there are birds in rescues... do you know for every bird that dies for what ever reason there has to be one born out there to keep parrots going... believe me, more parrots owned by people die than hatched by breeding birds. The problem is there just are not as many people doing rescues are there are people who set up to breed.

People are also not responsible for what they take on so they go out to buy a parrot whether they've done their homework or not ... and yet the grueling day in and day out mess, yelling and care for the parrot gets old really fast for most people so they sell or give up their parrot.

Back in 2009 when I stop breeding all my Pionus and Amazons I had considered on writing for my website info for breeding, hand feeding and in depth info but then when there are so many mixed opinions I decided it was not worth it.

 

[Love My Zons]

I am not against breeding programs for rare or endangered species I am completely for them. No bird or animal should be allowed to become extinct that is Human disregard for life and that is completely not necessary and we are to blame for this to happen.

It is the unnecessary breeding that People do to earn a buck that turns me off completely!

 

[DWRVT]

All fair points, I just wish bird breeding was as regulated as cat and dog breeders

WHAT??? Tell that to the shelter staff members who euthanize hundreds of cats and dogs per day!!!! Dog and cat breeding is not regulated at all - one just needs a male and a female dog or cat to be a breeder. Go online to the buy and sell website and search for puppies or kittens - you will find literally hundreds looking for homes on that site alone, nevermind rescues and shelters.
These are from people who are truly just doing it for the money - no health checks or genetic testing goes into these breedings, most of these "breeders" will actually put off good care of their female dogs because it costs too much.
Just like good cat/dog breeders who truly love their animals and try to find them the best homes, good bird breeders do exist and I think AA has a few of them.

 

[SandraK]

Title pretty much says it all. I see no point in this subforum since 1) very few "breeders" participate and 2) since 99.9 percent of the forum is against breeding under any circumstances and 3) threads here tend to get everyone's nose out of joint.

Without this particular subforum AA would have less discord, IMO.

If people want info on breeding they can go to other websites.

Believe you me, I do understand part of where you're coming from, but if someone had a pair of Ekkies and they became eggnant, wouldn't you prefer that they could come here and ask or even ask you? From what I've seen of AA they do try to stick to facts and accuracy, so why send a newbie out into cyberspace where they could get detrimental info to what they're trying to do (whether we like what they're trying to do or not)?

 

[CheekyBeaks]

I normally tend to agree with you Kathy and I can completly see where you are comming from but in this case I will disagree. I think this section is a very valuable tool as there are those of us including you who can give non-judgemental sensible advice those who need it for whetever reason.
I personally would be very dissapointed to see this section closed.

 

[LunaHestia]

Things like this start with "lets remove a sub forum" and have a way of escalating to other forms of censorship....what's next? No sharing photos of your new bird UNLESS it's a rescue or perhaps only people who have rescue birds are even allowed to post?

I realize that we do sometimes have people come ask about breeding that EVERYONE both pro and anti-breeder will agree should never, EVER think about breeding! I think the people who DO have breeding experience should be the ones to tell those people ALL the pitfalls of breeding, medically, financially. Let them convince these type of people what a bad idea it would be. When everyone starts jumping on their soapboxes the message gets muddied and most of the time the OP not only gets defensive but becomes even more determined to do it just to prove everyone wrong.
I would guess that there are more pro breeder people on here than you realize but feel it isn't worth the arguments to post. In a way the one sub forum set aside for them is constantly being hijacked, which I think is extremely rude.
If people want to get the message out about rescue/rehoming then start your own threads in that sub forum on a more regular basis. I would expect the pro breeders to afford you the same respect and not bash your views on your threads.

 

[DWRVT]

Things like this start with "lets remove a sub forum" and have a way of escalating to other forms of censorship....what's next? No sharing photos of your new bird UNLESS it's a rescue or perhaps only people who have rescue birds are even allowed to post?

I realize that we do sometimes have people come ask about breeding that EVERYONE both pro and anti-breeder will agree should never, EVER think about breeding! I think the people who DO have breeding experience should be the ones to tell those people ALL the pitfalls of breeding, medically, financially. Let them convince these type of people what a bad idea it would be. When everyone starts jumping on their soapboxes the message gets muddied and most of the time the OP not only gets defensive but becomes even more determined to do it just to prove everyone wrong.
I would guess that there are more pro breeder people on here than you realize but feel it isn't worth the arguments to post. In a way the one sub forum set aside for them is constantly being hijacked, which I think is extremely rude.
If people want to get the message out about rescue/rehoming then start your own threads in that sub forum on a more regular basis. I would expect the pro breeders to afford you the same respect and not bash your views on your threads.

You put what I was thinking into non-rambling form!!

 

[CheekyBeaks]

Things like this start with "lets remove a sub forum" and have a way of escalating to other forms of censorship....what's next? No sharing photos of your new bird UNLESS it's a rescue or perhaps only people who have rescue birds are even allowed to post?

I realize that we do sometimes have people come ask about breeding that EVERYONE both pro and anti-breeder will agree should never, EVER think about breeding! I think the people who DO have breeding experience should be the ones to tell those people ALL the pitfalls of breeding, medically, financially. Let them convince these type of people what a bad idea it would be. When everyone starts jumping on their soapboxes the message gets muddied and most of the time the OP not only gets defensive but becomes even more determined to do it just to prove everyone wrong.
I would guess that there are more pro breeder people on here than you realize but feel it isn't worth the arguments to post. In a way the one sub forum set aside for them is constantly being hijacked, which I think is extremely rude.
If people want to get the message out about rescue/rehoming then start your own threads in that sub forum on a more regular basis. I would expect the pro breeders to afford you the same respect and not bash your views on your threads.

Those with such an outspoken anti breeder sentiment should perhaps stay out of the breeders boulevard to start with and leave commenting to those with experience and an open mind, jumping on new members and critising them is not going to educate it alienates.
Breeders here have the right to share knowledge and information in this section without the fear of being attacked.

 

[Theresa]

I realize that we do sometimes have people come ask about breeding that EVERYONE both pro and anti-breeder will agree should never, EVER think about breeding! I think the people who DO have breeding experience should be the ones to tell those people ALL the pitfalls of breeding, medically, financially.

I think a thread (possibly made into a sticky) should be made by our experienced responsible breeders. Something along the lines of "So you think you want to breed" with the reality of what it's like. That way if a member comes on that wants to breed and has questions, and a breeder is not available to answer them, another member can just give them a link to the sticky.

 

[Roxxie]

I think this section should stay. I know many people would love nothing more than for breeding to be a thing of the past but it will always be around.

Now I don't know anything about breeding birds but I do breed sugar gliders. When we get people trying to become breeders on the forum, some of us try to educate these people. I mean they can say, "Oh I have changed my mind, I'm not going to breed", but they will breed but now they will just keep it secret. If they're going to breed anyway, why not try to teach them the correct way to do it. Maybe they will hear all that it takes to be a good breeder and decide not to do it all. Everyone jumping on them telling them that they should not do it may only push them to do it, because someone says that they can't/shouldn't. I have had a bunch that I started mentoring that did finally decide that breeding was just too much for them, and ended up neutering their males. People are going to do what they want to do and there is nothing that we can do about that. One thing we can do is steer (not shove) them in the right direction.

 

[pearlywaldo]

WHAT??? Tell that to the shelter staff members who euthanize hundreds of cats and dogs per day!!!! Dog and cat breeding is not regulated at all - one just needs a male and a female dog or cat to be a breeder. Go online to the buy and sell website and search for puppies or kittens - you will find literally hundreds looking for homes on that site alone, nevermind rescues and shelters.
These are from people who are truly just doing it for the money - no health checks or genetic testing goes into these breedings, most of these "breeders" will actually put off good care of their female dogs because it costs too much.
Just like good cat/dog breeders who truly love their animals and try to find them the best homes, good bird breeders do exist and I think AA has a few of them.

Let me rephrase that, soceity and spcas do not tolerate dog and cat or other furry 4 legged abuse or neglect. People get quite angry and that pretty quickly.

The attitudes change pretty quickly when were talking about birds and rodents, people and spcas just dont care as much. With that in mind its easier to be a dirt bag conure breeder then it is a dirt bag cocker spaniel breeder and successfully get away with it, for that reason I think bird breeders should be licensed and supervised, in fact breeders of all animals should without exception.

 

[Irishj9]

Things like this start with "lets remove a sub forum" and have a way of escalating to other forms of censorship....what's next? No sharing photos of your new bird UNLESS it's a rescue or perhaps only people who have rescue birds are even allowed to post?

If people want to get the message out about rescue/rehoming then start your own threads in that sub forum on a more regular basis. I would expect the pro breeders to afford you the same respect and not bash your views on your threads.

Melissa
You are a braver person than I, and you said it perfectly.. ( Stands weeeellllllll back )
JP

 

[VictoriaVague]

It's always going to be a controversial topic.

On one hand we risk inspiring people who probably shouldn't, to breed. With pictures of fluffy baby birds and talk of $$$. People who don't realise all the money a responsible breeder puts in only see the sale price of a parrot and think they've struck gold. Or some blinded by cuteness don't see the dangers involved in hand rearing, the sleepless nights, the costs involved and the need to find these soon to be complex, intelligent, needy birds suitable homes.

On the other hand we risk turning away people who have entered blindly, when they need help and advice , potentially putting the lives of birds in danger when we could save them.

As with every species that has entered the pet market there are some excellent responsible breeders and a boat load of idiots in it for the money or another ill thought out reason. Removing the sub forum won't change that. As bird lovers we can at least do our best to educate and help people do the best by their birds if they do choose to breed them.

 

[HelloMarsha]

I'm new to this forum, I haven't even been here a month. What I've felt from threads across the entire forum, is that this site is anti breeding, and pro rehoming to the point where bad advice is sometimes given.

One great thing that has arisen from this thread is the overwhelming support for breeders, and the understanding that there is a place for them. When I was the first to reply with an opposing view to Sodakat and pearlywaldo, I honestly thought I'd be on my own. I'm so grateful for the members that have taken the time to speak out, because it seems to me that breeders have a lot of rocks thrown at them on this site.

The breeder bashers need to understand that when they say negative things about breeders in general, there's no clause excluding our breeders on this site. If there are only a few breeders here, I can understand why!

I'm not a breeder, I hope to one day, but right now I'm just preparing myself with knowledge. I won't be doing it for money. I plan to only breed one pair. The advice I've gained and will gain in the future from experienced breeders here is so valuable.

I hope that the members with more balanced views on breeding vs rehoming continue to speak out. Because when it comes down to it, it's not a competition! There's a place for both.

 

[Birdiemarie]

AA has never been biased about the forums available here. There is valuable information in Breeders Boulevard and even though bird breeding is not something I will ever do I've learned a lot about the subject because of that forum. I appreciate now how there is much more to it than just putting two birds together to have healthy chicks plus the commitment and knowledge needed to be a responsible breeder. Plus when inexperienced breeders come here looking for help or advice the information would be easier found in one area than wasting time searching all over the board. It stays.

 

[Anne & Gang]

The forum should remain...Yes, I am against irresponsible breeding but there are responsible breeders out there and for newbies who come on and ask, at least we can tell them the information and also tell them why we are against breeding. Information about breeding is available anywhere on the internet. I believe it is our responsibility to give information, but to also let anyone know the pitfalls of breeding, such as vet care, financial costs, looking after the chicks and parent birds and above all the fact that there are so many unwanted birds up for adoption. There are some responsible breeders on this forum...

 

[CeddysMum]

I think this forum should stay as it is. A forum on bird keeping isn't complete without breeding being an aspect. Just because we have several very vocally anti-breeder posters doesn't mean they are right or that they should be allowed to represent everyone else's opinion. The loudest voice isn't the only voice and they aren't necessarily correct IMO. If there isn't anything about breeding here, then the only voice heard will be the anti-breeder people. Which I strongly object to letting this forum become so one sided that there isn't even a section to discuss the apposing view. To me that becomes censorship. If people want to object, let them object. They can log their objection in the controversial topics sections. Plus, not all of our members are from the USA. In many other countries bird keeping is a lot different and there isn't the push toward rescue as here. In the USA its a big political thing that gets people's emotions so engaged they stop thinking with their head. Not so in other countries. Somehow the people of this forum are lost to breeding as part of the joy of bird keeping. I would resent it as a breeder if this forum made another step supporting the Animal Rights agenda by ending the breeder forum. I would lose some respect for the people here. Also, I'm not entirely certain the majority is really totally anti-breeding. I think there are a lot of fence sitters here and I would hate it if the only voice they heard was AR/anti-breeding. Some rare individuals are actually capable of having a mind of their own and not following along with the vocal ARs just because its the popular thing to do. Its a rare trait in people to think independently and not jump on the band-wagon, but I have faith that a few people are like that. I might also point out there is a rescue section for the people that want to discuss rescue. As several people pointed out in a recent thread, its not like everyone has to be 100% pro one thing and 100% anti- the other thing. I breed birds, I've also rehomed birds in need. I've also helped people locally that had challenging rescue cases. There is a place for both. Part of it is an emotional maturity issue. There can be a balance.

Edit: Okay I guess there is a rehome forum, instead of a rescue forum. IMO a very healthy thing to approach it positively by helping birds in need find a home rather than focusing on the negative and letting the politics get in the way of good people doing the right thing for birds.

Perfectly put into words what I'm thinking! Especially the part that not all members are in the USA

Not to mention, I certainly much rather see responsible and well educated breeders than parrots taken in huge numbers from the wild under atrocious circumstances!
Where there's no market because responsible breeders are fulfilling demand there's no reason for illegal wild parrot trade...

Just sayin'...

 

[Holiday]

Well, I see what Kathy's saying. There's more than just an anti-breeding contingent. The board overall is relatively pro-rehome/rescue, and for wide-spread, obvious good reason. But, I won't go into all of that, because it gets addressed well and regularly elsewhere, and many of our members and staff will always see to it that it does .

The thing is that AA's Breeder's Boulevard is not really about advocating breeding or providing an arena for such advocacy; it's about providing useful information that may better the lives of parrots and other birds (just like the rest of the board), and, practically speaking, some beginners will still breed, and the parrots in their care can and do still benefit from this information. (One might note that I stressed bettering the lives of parrots rather than the people who own or breed them. If folks are bewildered by that emphasis, they might want to read/review AA's Mission Statement up top, in which they will find a similar emphasis). The information on hand-feeding alone is invaluable to such birds. But, there have been quite a few threads on this forum that people have found generally useful or informative. And, as has been pointed out before, many of the questions would still be asked if the forum were dismantled. The answers just wouldn't be readily locatable for the people who need them, and might not be answered as well by the people who have the expertise to answer, and not only active posters but also lurkers' birds might suffer.

A lot of people forget the lurkers for some reason, but they account for a substantial amount of traffic on this site. And, they may choose not to post (which is their prerogative); they're just looking for the information they need. Allowing them to find good information on bird care and best practices is not a bad thing for birds. So, for those pragmatic reasons among others, the forum will most likely remain a part of AA for a long time to come.