Eclectus, commercial bird food diets and "toe-tapping"......

[Saemma]

Ekkies do have longer digestive tracks than other parrots. And MANY ekkie ownsers have experienced tt, and when they removed the food (usually sugar based items, fruity pellets, corn, grapes-often eaten out of moderation, or have an allergy or sensitivity to) the tt stopped. One day I decided to give Mister a very small piece of pancake, w/o syrup. Within a few hours he was tapping like a tick tock clock. It isn't physically harmful directly, but Saemma, you stated a significant problem: they don't sleep well when it is happening...and it can happen to varying degrees. Not sleeping well can lead to other problems, just as in humans. We've all seen a grouchy/tired birdie, right?

Yes.. that would be a pretty bad quality of life if they weren't getting the needed rest.

Here's the link to the Land of Vos site for anyone who's interested. http://www.landofvos.com/articles/index.html
http://www.landofvos.com/articles/index.html

 

[Birdiemarie]

Well..... years ago I had put Ruby on Harrisons at the recommendation of the Avian vet we were seeing at the time and a few hours after eating it it caused her tremendous discomfort (itching, head shaking, anxiety) and exacerbated her wing flipping. All I'm going to say is don't believe everything you read.

I've spoken to a few ekkie parents and have seen videos and read stores of ekkies in the throes of such bad involuntary toe tapping that they cry out in discomfort and distress. This was going on when they were trying to sleep.

 

[Kathie]

I know what you are saying, Marie. Vets always tend to recommend Harrison's. Thankfully, my vet is not like that.

Funny, I seem to recall that, a couple of years ago, Harrison's came out with an "Eclectus" formula - remember that? It was quickly discontinued.

I am not saying Harrison's is a bad diet - it's just not the best for Eclectus. I also forgot about the wing flipping. He had the toe tapping and wing flipping together.

 

[jmfleish]

This is nothing but a way to sell more Harrisons and it angers me to no end! Anyone who has seen toe tapping or wing flipping knows that it is not natural and that the bird is uncomfortable. I cannot even begin to tell you how angry this information makes me.

Spirulina is a blue algea and is packed full of protein. Anyone with experience with Eclectus knows they should be on a low protein diet. I can say that I've had toe tapping issues with too high a protein diet and when I reduce the protein levels, the toe tapping stops.

I've seen the PBS documentary that they list and there are no birds in there that toe tap at all. I'm almost wondering if they are talking about the foot banging that the Black Palms do and got their species mixed up.

Toe tapping is not normal and I would never ever feed Harrison's to my Eclectus! EVER!

 

[Birdiemarie]

I have found in my experience that even some CAV don't give the best advice when it comes to the eclectus. Ekkie parents must research on their own.

 

[jmfleish]

I just posted this to one of my Eclectus lists and David Skidmore answered saying that this was horribly misleading and false...how sad what these companies will do to sell stuff.

 

[rikkitikki]

This is some interesting stuff. Good to know so we won't be swayed one way or another without being properly educated...

 

[jmfleish]

I think it's a disgusting ploy on Harrison's side to get you to buy more of their product...I'm absolutely disgusted, beyond belief at this point. Like I said, if you've ever actually experienced toe tapping or wing flipping in person, you'd never say it's natural...ever!

 

[sodakat]

I commented on the thread on the Harrison's site. I've fed Harrison's High Potency since 2008 without problems. However, I use the pellets as a supplement, not vice versa.

Have to add that I ran out of pellets in December and have not yet reordered due to finances. Two of my birds have toe-tapped in the last month. One day each. A young male and a bit older female. A couple weeks apart. I *think* too much cooked corn (I buy non-GMO organic field corn from a local organic farmer) but I'll never know for sure of course.

Last summer LaFitte wing-flipped for the first time ever. I noticed because I was up late reading and heard a weird, quiet, repetitive noise coming from the bird room. I tiptoed in and listened to determine which cage it came from. Then I used a small flashlight to observe him. His wings opened out just a tiny bit then closed tightly, over and over. He appeared to be asleep though, which was odd.

That day I had given them a bunch of mangoes that were on sale and he had eaten MORE than his share. I feed in community bowls outside the cages.

IMO the jury is still out on definitive reason for TT and WF, but clearly there are lots of contributors. Oh, there are also reports from Eclectus owners whose birds have TT after an injury/scare.

Kathy

 

[Vega]

Anyone who has seen toe tapping or wing flipping knows that it is not natural and that the bird is uncomfortable. I cannot even begin to tell you how angry this information makes me.

I couldn't agree more! I've seen some ekkies do just fine having pellets as a part of their diet. Gypsy is not one of them. I've offered her small amounts over the years, from a variety of manufacturers...all have led to toe-tapping. Within hours of eating them. When I take the pellets away, it stops within a day or two. (depending on how much she ingested)

To say this is normal and almost imply that its healthy gets my blood boiling! I like to compare it to an involuntary nervous twitch. While it isn't painful, its certainly not comfortable, in the least its incredibly annoying. Does anyone have restless leg syndrome? If you do, you can relate to how miserable it can make you. I can only assume its much the same for our toe tapping ekkies.

At least I know that Gypsy sure is miserable from it. The only other time I've noticed her tt from something other than pellets is during her high hormonal season. It seems there is one week every January where her hormones go on high alert. Along with her cage aggression and general hormonal acting out (nesting behavior), I've also seen her toe tap for 2-3 days. I read somewhere that it was related to the overdrive in hormones.

 

[jmfleish]

I'll be the very first to admit that we don't truly understand everything that could cause wing flipping and toe tapping but for Harrison to suggest that this behavior is "normal" is insane! I was one of those believers that pellets could be fed but after 7 years, my oldest Ekkie is showing severe issues with them. I think it eventually catches up with them and am a true convert in not feeding pellets to these guys.

 

[Birdiemarie]

I agree there is not yet enough info on what causes TT and WF and I think all ekkie parronts whose birds suffer from one or both of these conditions will attest it is not healthy or normal and would truly like the mystery solved. In the meantime all we can do is keep researching and be very careful what we feed our ekkies.

 

[jmfleish]

Here is a response from someone who actually does study these birds in the wild and he has never seen them toe tap in the wild. Also, the videos that Harrisons is suggesting you will find the toe tapping in...I don't see any toe tapping. I do see Palms foot stomping...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWZpXuJ4-Ys Part one Of Parrots In The Land of Oz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xk8pCTLMNw Part two of Parrots in the Land of Oz


In a message dated 1/22/2010 9:55:25 P.M. Central Standard Time, Robert.Heinsohn@anu.edu.au writes:

Thank-you so much for your email and my apologies for not answering
sooner - I have only just returned from a much needed holiday. As you
have no doubt guessed Eclectus parrots are my passion, and I have
spent over ten years now observing them intensively in the wild on
Cape York Peninsula. They are not easy to observe as they stay in the
tree-tops but with patience and lots of tree-climbing we do have a
really good "take' on their behaviour in the wild. I have written
quite a lot about them, usually in the scientific literature but also
sometimes also in the popular magazines. Please let me know if there
are any particular articles you would like.

I know what you are referring to with "top tapping" but have not
observed this in the wild at all. I suspect therefore that it is
behaviour they develop in captivity, although whether it is due to
harmful influences or not I cannot say. I wish I could answer your
question better than that but have to say that I am drawing a blank.
Hopefully the general answer that I have not seen it in wild birds is
a step forward?

Anyway I am flattered that you approached me, and please feel free to
bounce any other questions off me. I may not know the answers but
will definitely do my best.

All the best to you and your group.

Rob Heinsohn

​

 

[lotus15]

Have any of you brought your concerns to the attention of the company? I think it would make for an interesting dialogue!

 

[jmfleish]

A few people have commented on the site Coco. I think the whole thing is just insane. Here is what Laurella Desborough, a leading US Eclectus breeder had to say:

You can be sure that the person moderating that site is NOT going to let even ONE comment come in...

I think Dr. Cathy Johnson-Delaney is mistaking FOOT STOMPING for toe tapping. Two very different behaviors, just as wing flipping is different from wing quivering...one is a muscle spasm and the other is not.

Foot stomping is most common in the Australian cockatoos who use that as a territorial indicator...now, if that DVD shows an eclectus doing it, that may be, but that is likely an eclectus copy-catting a cockatoo.

If I can take a baby bird, feed it extra vitamins for a week and create toe tapping, I don't think that is a sexual behavior OR a behavior indicating good health.

All those people who call me with toe-tapping eclectus parrots who have been feeding nutriberries, or lots of pellets, and when they stop, the toe tapping stops...are those birds suddenly going IN and OUT of reproductive modes? Not likely. When an eclectus is toe tapping consistently, they do not look happy OR healthy, they look miserable.

So, I will find out this vet's email and send her a little message....hopefully it will work.

What a shame when we cannot trust some veterinary professionals to speak the truth because it is going to affect their bottom line...selling pellets in this case.

Laurella

 

[Monica]

Forgive me for I do not own an eclectus, so I have not experienced this first hand, let alone second hand. I will say though that I do not feel as if pellets is the specific cause of TT and WF. Sure, it may be *ONE* possibility, but not the *ONLY* possibility. (hence some eclectus do fine on pellets and others may not)

Land of Vos did a study on eclectus and TT/WF. The results are interesting, to say the least!
Land of Vos - General Care and Information Articles/Talk/Weaning/Aloe/General/Entertainment

[as per Harrisons] Harrison's removed spirulina from the diet, which caused *some* eclectus to start toe-tapping and for others to stop. This would suggest that spirulina is not a specific reason either. The link to this can be found below (if it works - did for me the first time! and I think that's the right link, could be wrong)
Harrison's Bird Foods is a family of certified organic pet bird diets that were formulated to make your bird as healthy as it can possibly be.

And another that talks about TT/WF
Harrison's Bird Foods is a family of certified organic pet bird diets that were formulated to make your bird as healthy as it can possibly be.



I spoke with someone from Harrison's, and they mentioned that keeping an eclectus on their recommended diet would lead to the bird eventually stopping the behavior. How long this took was not mentioned. Unfortunately, I no longer have this dialogue. Actually, I found some info... will copy and paste the one that most pertains to this thread (okay, there may be one or two others, but they don't make much sense without the rest of the information). Please recall, this is from a Harrison's Employee.

We as a population of pet bird enthusiasts have been hearing that spirulina story for years but there is no documented study behind those claims. A few years back by public demand we did a test run of a spirulina-free version of one of our diets and the results showed that toe-tapping birds tapped on the spirulina-free foods as well. And, of those birds that did stuck it out (on either version of the diet) all of them eventually stopped tapping.

At a recent Association of Avian Veterinarian conference I spoke with a reputable avain vet who witnessed a group of eclectus toe-tapping in the wild - they stood on a rotted log and tapped - flipped until ants came pouring out of the wood and had themselves a little insect feast. Is tapping a genetic trait of eclectus? Food for thought.

 

[jmfleish]

The majority of toe tapping and wing flipping incidents that I've heard of seem to be caused by a diet that includes synthetic vitamins of some sort. I think it's probably fairly easy to say that this is one of the major problems. I used to be someone who would say, "I feed a pelletted diet to my Ekkies without any problems" and that bit me in the butt about a year ago. Sooner or later, I think a synthetic diet will cause issues, it's not a question of "IF" but of "WHEN". Obviously the less you feed of synthetic vitamins, the longer it will take to see the negative effects and every bird is going to be different but I think it's pretty safe to say that staying away from a fortified diet works, especially when you do this, it clears up the problems. Almost every well-established Eclectus breeder will tell you exactly the same thing.

As for spirulina, even though it is a natural fortification, it is full of protein and this species is known for doing better on a low protein diet, hence the reason it's best to stay away from spirulina as well.

For Harrisons to say that they've seen toe tapping in the wild is crazy and to say that the Harrisons diet is the way to go and that toe tapping will eventually go away is doing a great disservice to all Eclectus owners who are willing to just listen to what Harrisons says.

 

[Bokkapooh]

What do ekkies eat in the wild? Has anyone taken a study of this with ekkies in the wild?

 

[Vega]

Forgive me for I do not own an eclectus, so I have not experienced this first hand, let alone second hand. I will say though that I do not feel as if pellets is the specific cause of TT and WF.

In my case, it is. Nothing else was added and nothing else was eliminated. It doesn't matter what brand of pellets (I've tried 3 or 4) the toe tapping and wing flipping always follows. Not within a matter of days, but hours. To have this happen at different times of the year, with different manufactured food, without any other changes...gotta say that its most definitely the pellets.

Then only dry food I've found that doesn't give this reaction is the Unpellet & Green Chunks from Phoenix Foraging Rolls.

 

[Birdiemarie]

The problem with pellets is that even those designed for ekkies have a higher concentration of protein that many ekkies cannot tolerate even without spirolina. Some ekkies are more sensitive to protein than others.