Blue Front Amazon behavior issues

[freqsounds]

Hey guys, I've been having a few serious issues with my Blue Front Amazon of 20 years. I'm going to try to describe my observations the best I can, so this might be a little long!

I grew up with my Amazon. My parents got him as a hand fed baby. He made the journey from central Michigan to Northern Ohio. We did a lot of training, a lot of reading, and did the best we could in understanding his temperament. He was a lot of fun and loving.

His life changed drastically one day. My brother was holding him in the garage (my brother was 7 at the time) and Popeye flew away! He was gone for 6 nights during the summer. We searched and searched, posted flyers, etc. On the 6th day, Popeye flew down to a guy who was doing some gardening. The guy had seen the flyer and contacted us immediately. We took him to the vet the next day and he checked out okay, but malnourished.

From that day forward, Popeye has been more aggressive than he's ever been. Perhaps he didn't get the proper treatment since his disappearance, but that was about 16 years ago.

Its like someone flipped a switch and his whole demeanor changed. He started biting and getting aggressive, especially around females. Its to the point where a female can't hold him because he will NAIL them as soon as he gets on their finger! This is only the beginning.

The last time my mom held Popeye (when he was trusted), he was up on her shoulder while she was doing dishes. Out of nowhere, he bit my mom just under her eye. If it wasn't for her glasses, she probably wouldn't have an eye anymore. My mom had a black eye for weeks. After reading online, we decided he's not allowed on shoulders anymore.

He continued to be aggressive toward me and my brother. We couldn't get him out of the cage. It was like a game for him - he'd come to the side of the cage and act like he wanted to be held, then he'd lunge and try to bite. My dad could get him out of the cage, and then we could hold him. But he never seemed comfortable with it. We thought it was a territorial thing.

I left for the Navy in 2004, and would go to Ohio to visit. He was still just as ornery even though he hadn't seen me for a while.

This past year, my parents split up and I decided I would take Popeye as their house was being foreclosed. I live in Virginia, and made the journey in Spring 2014 to get him and his belongings.

Everything was great. He came in and instantly felt at home. He didn't appear to be stressed at all. I could pick him up, hold him, talk to him, etc. It was like the black cloud had been lifted, or so I thought.

One day I was holding him and my room mate (female) walked into the room. He turned and NAILED the base of my thumb despite the finger-roll to make him lose his balance. I instantly started gushing blood, so I set him on the floor while I took care of the bleeding. He proceeded to CHASE me around the house with his umbrella out, looking for more blood! I told my room mate to go in a room and close the door, not that I was scared for her, but I didn't want Popeye to be able to see her and make him more angry. Once I got cleaned up, I gave him a little while on the floor till he calmed down, and then picked him up and put him in his cage.

A couple days later, I decided to hold him and try this again, this time with my room mate out of the house. Everything was going okay; I was feeding him sunflower seeds as a treat (unsalted of course), and out of the blue, he got a hold of my pinky. He bit so hard that it pealed away the skin and I could see my bone. Worse, he wouldn't let go. He kept grinding his beak on my finger. I had to put him in a towel hold (without a towel) to gently pull him off, and I kept him in that hold till I got him to his cage. This was the second time my carpets needed shampoo'd in one week.

All of this happened about 2 months ago.

I pay close attention to Popeye. I notice his habits and can notice when there's something wrong. Perhaps something that I didn't realize was in issue is: if I would so much as walk near his cage, he would jump from one side to the other to try to bite through the cage, like a zombie waiting to attack. And if he didn't lunge at me, he would hiss and shake his head. He had always done this, and I just passed it as normal. Looking back at it, I realize it's not normal.

Cleaning his cage is a chore because you have to watch for his beak. He has towel aggression, plus he's aggressive when I get near the cage. I've tried to distract him with a peanut or sunflower seeds, but he'd rather come after me.

Here's where it gets interesting. I can talk to him all day long. For the first couple minutes, his eyes dilate and he gets all fluffy and comfy. Then after those first couple minutes, it's like he looses interest. Unresponsive.

Now, a female walks into the room and comes near his cage, and he's RIGHT there sitting at the front of the cage. Umbrella up and ready for blood. If the female talks to him, he gets comfortable, fluffy, eyes dilating, looking like he thoroughly enjoys the company. Out of nowhere, he'll strike the side of the cage with his beak. At that point, he scares the crap out of anyone around and they end up leaving him alone.

Another problem that has been taken for normal is, whenever you're doing something, i.e. folding laundry, dishes, cleaning, or doing anything in the kitchen, he screams. I know that screaming is normal, and that doesn't bother me. But it's apparent that he's not "calling his flock". I don't know what he's trying to tell me. I can be right next to his cage and fold laundry and he's screeching in my ear.

Since he almost took my pinky off, I have tried to hold him multiple times. He can be at the front of the cage, and if I open the door, he doesn't hesitate to get to the back of the cage and start hissing at me. It doesn't matter what time of the day it is, or who's around. My room mate won't try to hold him anymore since he always bites her.

I can still feed him from the side of the cage. He will come up and accept treats or food. I can open the cage door and feed him inside the cage. I can pet the top of his head through the cage or with the door open. The second my hand is in perch position, he flocks to the back of the cage and starts hissing. Take that away, and he'll come back for treats.

I have noticed more recently that if I go up and talk to him, he'll come to the front of the cage, then go down to the bottom of the cage while enjoying the company. He'll walk around the bottom for a second, then climb back up the front of the cage. And do it all over again. He's never done this before, and I'm curious what he's trying to tell me.

Although he has aggression with females, my room mate tells me that if she leaves the room, he'll start screaming, or start "calling his flock". This tells me that he doesn't hate females, but I can't figure out the aggression.

If I'm holding him and he can hear a female talk, he will bite.

If he sees a female, he will bite.

He will no longer let me hold him.

He lunges at me if I walk by his cage.

He screams when I'm doing something, anything really. If I'm sitting and watching TV, he's content. If he can see my hands going crazy while playing PS4, he screams.



The things I've tried:

I have never intentionally shown Popeye any sign of aggression or distrust. Of course, the past few bites have been distrusting. I don't talk down to him or deviate in how I talk to him (or as I have talked to him since I was a child).

I firmly believe in positive reinforcement. My dog has had awesome results with positive reinforcement, and believe it or not, my daughter has too. I'm not the type that would raise a hand to any living thing. I'd rather positively reinforce good actions, and disregard the bad.

With that being said, I have tried treats. As said before, I can give him treats all day long. He has no problem getting near my hand. He just doesn't want to get on it and come out of the cage. And if he sees the perch finger, he's done -- he wants to be left alone. He doesn't want treats or anything. It seems he's scared, but I'm not sure what might have scared him.

I have thought about finding a bird trainer. They're extremely hard to find; even like a "bird psychology" book is difficult to find. I think if I can understand my bird better, I could correct his issues, and we both could be happy.

So I know this may come up, but he has been to the vet, he's up to date on everything, and his blood work came back normal. He's a perfectly healthy bird! The last time he was at the vet was about 4 months ago, when I was still able to get him out of his cage.

When I get home tonight, I will try to get some of his actions on video. I think it might help clear up what I'm trying to describe! I'd appreciate any help you guys could provide. Thanks for reading!

 

[freqsounds]

One more thing! He's picked up the emotion of crying.

When my brother and sister were young, they cried a lot. Whether upset, or being punished, etc.

When Popeye is unhappy, he will cry just like they will. If he doesn't want his cage covered, he'll cry. If my daughter torments him with a stuffed animal or something, he'll cry (it's like an alarm ). I think its neat that he will cry when his emotion changes.

I've noticed he will cry when he wants attention. He will click his tongue when he's feeling cuddly and comfortable.

Another thing I've noticed is when he is being spoken to, he will clean his feathers. Is this him saying "I like this!"? This is a brand new thing. He's never done this before.

 

[Clueless]

Does he fly?

How long have you had him in your home?

Is he trained to step on a perch? Example, I know a man who can only move his Amazon by using a round rope perch.

This has been distressing for the Bird. He has lost his "normal" home. Time is much longer for them.

Check out Barbara Heidenreich on the web. I've met her and she is awesome. Helped me to get one of my blue front Amazons to overcome his fear of hands.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Sounds like something happened to your bird while he was loose years ago and you haven't yet found the key to get him to forget it. There are far better behaviorists on this board than me and I'l let them help you.

I'll just mention that Amazons are susceptible to fatty liver disease and being overweight. You can try better smaller treats such as pine nuts and pistachios. Peanuts are not a good food for any bird - for many reasons.

Good luck with your guy.

 

[Hankmacaw]

One thing I spotted right away in your second post is that your daughter "torments". You will need to teach her not to do that ever - with the birds shaky temperament this alone could be contributing to his aggressiveness.

 

[freqsounds]

He knows how to fly, but his wings stay clipped. If they grow out, he knows he can fly.

He's been in my home for almost a year now. His advanced aggression just started about 2 months ago.

He has always stepped up on a finger. I have tried a wooden perch, and he pecks and is easily unhappy with it.

And it makes sense that it has been somewhat distressing. He was in our old house for about 17 years. The move to Virginia could easily stress him out, but I'm not sure why it would take ~9 months for him to show it. And there's not much I can do! I can't take him back to Ohio; the bank is after the house.

Thanks for the tip on Barbara, I will be looking her up this afternoon!

 

[Bartleby]

Just some thoughts, since you are familiar with positive reinforcement do you clicker train? You should/could work on targeting so that you can safely get Popeye moving around his cage and eventually outside of his cage without having to place your flesh in danger. You should also stick train so that he learns to get on and off a perch. I know you said he pecks at it, but better to be pecking at the perch than degloving your fingers!

 

[freqsounds]

Sounds like something happened to your bird while he was loose years ago and you haven't yet found the key to get him to forget it. There are far better behaviorists on this board than me and I'l let them help you.

I'll just mention that Amazons are susceptible to fatty liver disease and being overweight. You can try better smaller treats such as pine nuts and pistachios. Peanuts are not a good food for any bird - for many reasons.

Good luck with your guy.

Thanks for the tip! He doesn't get them often at all. Every once in a while, I'll give him one, maybe two, but after that, he's cut off for a long time. I rarely keep peanuts in the house. Even I have to be in the mood for them. Aside from that, I keep him on a strict pellet diet. He used to get food when the rest of the family ate, but that stopped at my house because he would scream and scream during dinner until he got something to nibble on. He is ignored if he screams at dinner now, and it's pretty effective. If he's quiet during dinner, he might get a green bean or a couple kernels of corn.

 

[freqsounds]

Just some thoughts, since you are familiar with positive reinforcement do you clicker train? You should/could work on targeting so that you can safely get Popeye moving around his cage and eventually outside of his cage without having to place your flesh in danger. You should also stick train so that he learns to get on and off a perch. I know you said he pecks at it, but better to be pecking at the perch than degloving your fingers!

You bring up an interesting point that I forgot to mention. He will come out of his cage and climb on top of it. If he gets up there, all bets are off! He gets the most aggressive up there. You can't get him down; he has to get in his cage on his own free will. If you come near the cage, expect a beak to come at you full speed lol.

 

[Bartleby]

You bring up an interesting point that I forgot to mention. He will come out of his cage and climb on top of it. If he gets up there, all bets are off! He gets the most aggressive up there. You can't get him down; he has to get in his cage on his own free will. If you come near the cage, expect a beak to come at you full speed lol.

Definitely stick train! Also, since he has some cage aggression it may be a really good idea to work with him away from his cage in the beginning. Not just across the room, preferably in a different room entirely from his cage so he can't see it and get defensive. I think it may behoove you to basically go back to the beginning, forget the history and all the things you used to be able to do with him. Work with what you've got in front of you. One thing I would do is absolutely stop giving him access to your flesh. Get him stick trained and move him with the T-perch only. The more he is allowed to practice a behavior (ie. Biting) the more he will resort to that behavior.

There are people here with way more experience! @Kiwibird08 @Macawnutz @melissasparrots @Greycloud I know I'm forgetting a bunch, hopefully others will call some people too!

 

[Chopper]

Ok - please stop your daughter from tormenting him.

I have a blue front amazon and I've had him less than 3 months.

He is very afraid of getting on a dowel/perch. It took less then 5 days working with him to stop biting the dowel every time I tried to get him to step up but training is part of his life now. He still bites the dowel sometimes but he doesn't grind it with his beak and take chunks out of it like he used to.

For several weeks there he lunged at me when I walked by the cage. Then I started offering him treats. At first it was part of a walnut because he likes walnuts. Then it was pistachios for a few days because they were available. (Yes, I know that walnuts and pistachios are fattening but I was working on the relationship building.) Then it was pine nuts and then Christmas happened and now things are in boxes right now so it's nothing and he loves me.

Almost every time I walk by his cage I try to scratch his beak. Stick my finger in his cage so he gets used to it (and I pull it out when he gets near it). I want him to know me. I would love to cuddle with him but that's not really my goal. I have a Severe Macaw that will cuddle with me. My goal with my BFA is just to get him to the point where I am comfortable enough for him to step up on my hand. We aren't there yet. BUT yesterday he let me scratch his head. And he even closed his eyes one time and leaned further into the bar...like do more of that mommy...and I did.

Go slow and be patient. I don't try to do too much in his cage with him in it or on it. I move him to another perch (couch, back of chair, play stand, etc.) before I clean his cage or change his toys or anything.

You may find that your girlfriend can get along with him better if you aren't in the room.

 

[freqsounds]

Ok - please stop your daughter from tormenting him.

I have a blue front amazon and I've had him less than 3 months.

He is very afraid of getting on a dowel/perch. It took less then 5 days working with him to stop biting the dowel every time I tried to get him to step up but training is part of his life now. He still bites the dowel sometimes but he doesn't grind it with his beak and take chunks out of it like he used to.

For several weeks there he lunged at me when I walked by the cage. Then I started offering him treats. At first it was part of a walnut because he likes walnuts. Then it was pistachios for a few days because they were available. (Yes, I know that walnuts and pistachios are fattening but I was working on the relationship building.) Then it was pine nuts and then Christmas happened and now things are in boxes right now so it's nothing and he loves me.

Almost every time I walk by his cage I try to scratch his beak. Stick my finger in his cage so he gets used to it (and I pull it out when he gets near it). I want him to know me. I would love to cuddle with him but that's not really my goal. I have a Severe Macaw that will cuddle with me. My goal with my BFA is just to get him to the point where I am comfortable enough for him to step up on my hand. We aren't there yet. BUT yesterday he let me scratch his head. And he even closed his eyes one time and leaned further into the bar...like do more of that mommy...and I did.

Go slow and be patient. I don't try to do too much in his cage with him in it or on it. I move him to another perch (couch, back of chair, play stand, etc.) before I clean his cage or change his toys or anything.

You may find that your girlfriend can get along with him better if you aren't in the room.

Please understand that "torment" is more of sticking a toy by the side of the cage and watching Popeye move from one side of the cage to the other. And it doesn't happen very often at all. This isn't an every day thing. When my daughter does it, she goes straight to time out. But she's 4, and like Popeye, I can't expect her to completely stop overnight. She doesn't get away with it, though.

What you said makes sense to me. I should probably keep some treats in my pocket and give him one as I walk by. I regularly stick my fingers through the cage, either walking by or talking to him. I am at the point where I am willing to start from the very beginning - forgetting our past and work on 'right now'. I can still scratch his head and pet his beak, but only if he's in the mood.

What is the best approach to get him to stay on his side of the perch with my hand on the other side? I worry that he'll come after my hand. I'll be going to the store to get a dowel tonight!

 

[Clueless]

Please understand that "torment" is more of sticking a toy by the side of the cage and watching Popeye move from one side of the cage to the other. And it doesn't happen very often at all. This isn't an every day thing. When my daughter does it, she goes straight to time out. But she's 4, and like Popeye, I can't expect her to completely stop overnight. She doesn't get away with it, though.

What you said makes sense to me. I should probably keep some treats in my pocket and give him one as I walk by. I regularly stick my fingers through the cage, either walking by or talking to him. I am at the point where I am willing to start from the very beginning - forgetting our past and work on 'right now'. I can still scratch his head and pet his beak, but only if he's in the mood.

What is the best approach to get him to stay on his side of the perch with my hand on the other side? I worry that he'll come after my hand. I'll be going to the store to get a dowel tonight!

Your family may need to move him some day.......I would suggest a T perch. They can ride there and are not as prone to run down it to nail you. A dowel is a simple slide step from flesh

 

[Clueless]

@henpecked grew up with amazons and has amazons still. Several years ago he provided valuable info to me on a different board. Maybe he can chime in on the topic.

 

[Chopper]

What is the best approach to get him to stay on his side of the perch with my hand on the other side? I worry that he'll come after my hand. I'll be going to the store to get a dowel tonight!

Kiwibird gave me this idea. I have a dowel about 3' long (not sure that's accurate but it is long). In the middle of the perch I have wrapped some colored tape around it. Mine is red and white Kiwi's is red. In my other hand I have a wooden spoon. I have him step up onto the perch (started with a treat to get him to stop biting the dowel) and then when he starts going close to the tape on the dowel I move him back with the wooden spoon. I don't usually have to touch him with the spoon he usually backs away from it. I keep dowel/perch and spoon together.
I'm sure henpecked can give you plenty of suggestions too. The one above works for me.

 

[Chopper]

Please understand that "torment" is more of sticking a toy by the side of the cage and watching Popeye move from one side of the cage to the other. And it doesn't happen very often at all. This isn't an every day thing. When my daughter does it, she goes straight to time out. But she's 4, and like Popeye, I can't expect her to completely stop overnight. She doesn't get away with it, though.

Thank you for clarifying. You have your hands full.

 

[Bartleby]

I've seen people use cheap frisbees as shields on dowels, just cut a hole in the center and slide it on. I think a cheap plastic bowl from like Walmart would work, sort of like the hand guard on a sword hilt. I've also seen it suggested to put a length of PVC pipe that fits loosely over the dowel so that when the bird tries to step on it it rotates and they can't stay on it. But a T perch with a really long handle is a good investment all around too!

 

[Chopper]

I know it sounds crazy but it works.

I suggest you treat him like you are going to be able to treat him most days of his life.
Some days my guys (I have 3 parrots) get fresh veggies or fruit.
Some days they get treats and some days they don't (its because I usually forget).
Everyday I try to let them out but some days I'm not home to let them.
They all get water, pellets, and some seeds (usually with dried fruits and veggies mixed in).
Right now I can tell you that two of the three prefer pellets and the other one will at least eat pellets.
Once this round of seeds in my house are gone...they will all be on pellets.

Forget his past - great advice.

 

[Kiwibird08]

First off, thank you for seeking help rather than giving up on Popeye. That is WONDERFUL that you have so much love and dedication to this bird to find ways he can stay with his original family I also want to point out, if he's 20 and got loose about 16 years ago, that behavioral change may have been more the onset of puberty than the experience of being loose for a few days. Heck, the "power" and "freedom" may have triggered puberty, depending on time of year. Especially if he's a DNA male. Male BFA's are notoriously aggressive after hormones start up, and many owners find a "light switch" change in their previously sweet birds around that age. Sounds like it may not have been recognized as the beginnings of serious behavioral issues at the time when he "changed" since it sounds as though his aggression has gotten worse gradually. And the more 'fun' he finds biting (due to reactions) the less people want to handle him, and the less he is handled, the more aggressive he becomes because he craves the social interaction. It's a vicious cycle. I see where trust needs to be reestablished on both sides, and both Popeye and his family need to go back to training 101

My *personal* approach to this would be to forget any type of training Popeye has ever had. View him as a bird you've never met, never trained, never been trained for all you know. Wipe the slate clean with him. I'd begin with trust building exercises, such as sitting in a chair near his cage and talking/reading to him in a soft, soothing tone of voice. If/when he approaches you, give verbal praise and a small treat. Have each member of the household do this for 10/15 minutes a day, every day, for as long as it takes for him to non-aggressively approach every household member for the safety of his cage/reinforce that each family member is not a threat and wants to be his friend. This may take longer for some than others, but it will happen. Next move on to step up training. There are various options of how, but I personally used the "bribery" method with good success (my prior aggressive male BFA is a very reliable stepper upper). We started with a stick, then a glove, and finally a bare hand. We worked first within the cage, then from on the cage, then away from the cage. He got step-up drills, 2X a day for 15 minutes each until he learned to step up nicely to whatever was presented to him (stick, gloved hand or bare hand). This sounds a bit extreme, but if there was an emergency and someone besides us HAD to handle him, he WOULD step up to a gloved hand or stick. It also helped him "overcome" his "hatred" of women, and gives us a way to handle him when he's hormonal and aggressive (on the stick!). I would keep him off your shoulder for now, until he is trustworthy enough to go back up there. You can also have his less preferred humans do things he likes, such as feeding him, hanging new toys, letting him out ect... so he builds positive associations with them. His most preferred humans should do less liked (by the bird) activities like cleaning his cage, removing the dishes, putting him to bed/up so he is less likely to hold a grudge. From there, you should have opened the door to be able to do other desirable training

If you want some books, look into ones that would be on the subject of working with older rehomes. If there are avian shelters near where you live, many offer classes on how to work with parrots, and if you explain your situation, they may allow you to attend to 'brush up' on some skills needed for dealing with a distrusting, older bird even if you don't plan on adopting one from them. Best of luck.

 

[Kiwibird08]

What is the best approach to get him to stay on his side of the perch with my hand on the other side? I worry that he'll come after my hand. I'll be going to the store to get a dowel tonight!

I have a great big piece of bright pink duct tape down the center of our dowel. When Kiwi was first step up training, if he started crossing that line, I would back him off with my other (gloved) hand or another shirt dowel and tap the line to indicate the visual barrier he was not to cross. He picked up pretty quickly that was the point to not cross and if he did, he would be backed off as opposed to being left alone to be flashy or hissy or whatever his mood was. We didn't use positive reinforcement training exclusively. I don't think amazons do as well with it, they are not overly sensitive birds like cockatoos. They are kind of aggressive, in your face birds and sometimes need to be knocked down a notch. I actually find tapping a very effective way of communicating "my territory" to him though, whether it be crossing the "no no" line on the dowel or his "no chew" training when away from his designated bird area. Amazons are stubborn, power hungry and WILL take advantage if given the chance, but they are also smart, fun, flock-oriented birds. They pick up on cues from their "flock" (you and your family) on how to behave and will get overly full of themselves if allowed.

In nature, if a flock mate was being aggressive and approaching in a "I'm going to kill you" way, the other bird would back him off, no "passively take it while waiting for a positive behavior to reward". I just don't see how 100% positive reinforcement is a 100% effective method personally if it's outside their natural realm of behavior. I guess growing up watching 2 strongly bonded amazons interact with each other (including the occasional disagreement) taught me a lot about their behavior towards one another, and in turn, how I should behave towards my bird to build a strong bond. Lucy and Barney the 40+ year bonded pair did not "positively reinforce" each other all the time. Sometimes they nipped each other or intimidated each other right off the perch if the other acted rudely! These birds are absolutely inseparable, so obviously, there is something to be learned. Kiwi is not allowed to get away with crap either whilst I wait for him to behave so he can be rewarded. He is backed up, "shunned" (turn my back and walk away), told no (and expected to cease and desist), gets the occasional time out ALONG with praise and rewards and fun for behaving. Over time, he has learned what behaviors lead to fun "flock time" and what behaviors irritate and offend his "flock". He does not act up often. He is happy, well adjusted and strongly bonded to both myself and especially my husband. This bird was aggressive and probably never handled when we got him. The trick is to entice them to wanting to be part of the flock, to trust that YOU (the family) WANTS them to be part of your flock and then to treat them like any other member (not the unruly does what he pleases leader) of your flock.