Beez strikes again - - Please help! I need advice and suggestions

[Bokkapooh]

We rescue and foster kittens seasonally, my mom and I help spay and neuter feral cats and kitten, and nurse them and find new homes for them.

A month ago we took in a mother cat with 1week old kittens, nothing new for us. This happens a lot this time of year.

Beez is 2/3 timberwolf and 1/3 malamute. He was adopted for my brother at 6weeks of age (I know, too young), and my brother raised him HORRIBLY. Beez is now 3.5 years old. He is very anti social with stangers whether they are male or female (although takes to women ok, and much better than men), he hate kids, and very aggressive to cats, dogs..and kittens.

My little brother left the utility room/cat room open as he went outside, and a kitten creeped into the house. Needless to say, Beez got her.

I am not a dog person. Dont get me wrong, I LOVE animals, love dogs, I have my own dog of my own, and love her, and trained her very well. But when it comes to aggressive, cat killing, people-biting dogs, I am not sure how to train them. Where to begin. Beez is NOT my animal, I take no responsibility for his action or anything. But I dont want my mom to have to get rid of him. I just dont know what to do. How to socialize him... Im a bird person, I work with aggressive birds, thats my thing.. but aggressive 160 pound dogs? I dont know...

My brother who owns Beez is out of town and really doesnt care about him anymore. He loves him, plays with him, etc, when he is home, but thats when he comes home on the weekends for a day or so.. so maybe 3xs a month?

Please help.

 

[Limits]

Well firstly everyone will say buy a cesar milan book. What he lives by is to distract the dog when he goes into a vicious state. So as a saftey precaution, i'd muzzle the dog so it cant actually bite anything and then sit with a cat (not kitten for safety reasons) on one side the room and have your dog on the otherside. When the dog starts to look like its going into a fixation with the cat, tap its nose and say no. If it doesnt come out of its trance you need to break his eye contact, turn the dog around, make him sit (push his bum down will help if he doesnt wanna do it himself). Distract your dog and play with him, stroke him, throw his head around, lift his legs etc. This way in theory he'll stop thinking about the cat.

Im not a dog trainer but ive seen alot and had a few myself. Good luck.

 

[Greycloud]

I recommend Pming Braveheartdogs-Vicki! You might want to consider placing him in a wolfdog sanctuary.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I recommend Pming Braveheartdogs-Vicki! You might want to consider placing him in a wolfdog sanctuary.

There are no wolfdog sanctuaries in this area. There is one near one near the border of the state, but my mom does not have the transportation, noor is my car able to drive that far anytime soon. We (meaning I) really want to work with him. And since I will be home for a while, I will put a lot of effort into training him... if he can still be trained.

My brother really did a whacko job on B, and punished him when he was being a social puppy. And my brother took him running every day, walks everyday, up until he hit a year old and didnt look like a puppy anymore and became a big manly dog. He also NEVER wanted him neutered, so he is unaltered, which may be a big reason why he is so aggressive. He is not aggressive to the adult cats we have or my dog. But he does follow them around and bosses them around, etc. So we keep the cats away from B, my dog is a push over, so B ignores her for the most part. Since we havent heard from my brother in a while, and not sure when he will come home (since its summer), we wanted to get him neutered. But he is very aggressive, and not sure how we can approach this. Our avian vet would be able to do it(since he is a Mobile vet too) and would be able to come here with his mobile vet van and neuter him, but B would be very aggressive. And we just dont know what to do...*sigh*

 

[Gilraen]

Don't go with Milan's methods. I really have nothing to say about how to train him since I've never worked with aggressive dogs before, but after watching some of the youtube videos of Milan and the way he "works" with dogs, I would never let him get anywhere near one of mine that behaved perfectly.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

There are no wolfdog sanctuaries in this area. There is one near one near the border of the state, but my mom does not have the transportation, noor is my car able to drive that far anytime soon. We (meaning I) really want to work with him. And since I will be home for a while, I will put a lot of effort into training him... if he can still be trained.

My brother really did a whacko job on B, and punished him when he was being a social puppy. And my brother took him running every day, walks everyday, up until he hit a year old and didnt look like a puppy anymore and became a big manly dog. He also NEVER wanted him neutered, so he is unaltered, which may be a big reason why he is so aggressive. He is not aggressive to the adult cats we have or my dog. But he does follow them around and bosses them around, etc. So we keep the cats away from B, my dog is a push over, so B ignores her for the most part. Since we havent heard from my brother in a while, and not sure when he will come home (since its summer), we wanted to get him neutered. But he is very aggressive, and not sure how we can approach this. Our avian vet would be able to do it(since he is a Mobile vet too) and would be able to come here with his mobile vet van and neuter him, but B would be very aggressive. And we just dont know what to do...*sigh*

First, I would absolutely NOT do anything recommended by Cesar Milan. I have seen the video where he puts the cat nearby and then shocks the dog, this is inhumane and not effective at all in the long run and very likely to increase aggression. If Beez is pushed, make no mistake, he'll bite and someone will get hurt. He doesn't need to be bullied or punished or pushed around. If anyone (human) tries to get into a physical battle they won't win, we are not designed to.

You have to realize that even though he has not hurt your other dog or your adult cats, in my opinion it is very likely he could and probably will, so I would be extremely careful about that. Dogs can have "predatory drift" where something can trigger the dog to go into predation mode and can attack and kill smaller animals. Because he has already killed a small animal it is likely he will do it again if triggered.

The window of socialization opportunity for dogs closes at around 5 months old, you cannot socialize beyond that point, jut do remedial training which is very different. Wolves do not make good pets and hybrids are really tricky and in my experience usually pretty dangerous, more so even than a wolf. The fact that he is anti social is very concerning.

If he has ever bitten, my recommendation, if you are going to keep him is that you manage him extremely well and do not allow access to people (especially people who will not be able to follow very specific instructions when interacting with him). I also would not allow access to other small animals including dogs. I am not sure if he has bitten a human and if he has the level of bite (just air snap no contact, contact no damage, contact with scrapes, contact with punctures, etc). If he has never bitten you may allow access to humans but I would be very cautious with this. He should also, without question, be neutered. It is unheard of to keep a dog that is human and animal aggressive intact.

In a nutshell, if you want to work with him you would do desensitization and counter conditioning where you expose to him to the triggers that make him uncomfortable at very low intensity levels (usually a lot of distance) and pair that with something extremely high value, like meat. The idea is for him to learn that the appearance of people = something great for him. Eventually, the presentation of humans will create a wiggly happy response from him, and then you can move a little closer.

I would check out Welcome to k9aggression.com | Dog Aggression Education, Support and Resources which has a lot of good info. Also, Working with a fearful, scared or shy dog has a lot of good info. You should probably be working with a qualified positive reinforcement trainer too, which I could help you find in your area. NO punishment training at all. This dog should not be jerked, thrown on his back or shocked. I know you wouldn't do this, but some people who call themselves trainers (like the ones who are all into the Dog Whisperer) may recommend this garbage, but it will get someone hurt and it won't help Beez.

Be careful and keep people and small animals safe around him. Progress slowly and always make sure that you have enough distance for him to remain comfortable and not reactive.

I would be very careful.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Don't go with Milan's methods. I really have nothing to say about how to train him since I've never worked with aggressive dogs before, but after watching some of the youtube videos of Milan and the way he "works" with dogs, I would never let him get anywhere near one of mine that behaved perfectly.

You are correct. Professional certified trainers, PhDs Applied Animal Behaviorists and veterinary behaviorists do NOT agree with his methods or recommend him or anything he says or does. He is not trained or qualified. His methods are traditional, force and punishment based and from the dark ages, not to mention not effective long term.

 

[Sophie's Mama]

First, you do have a real problem on your hands...But any dog can be retrained.
You stated that you weren't a dog person, but you have dogs. You also stated that you were not responsible for his behavior....from what I can tell your brother is out of town, and it is you and your mom in the house.
If you do not plan to re home it is, whether planned or not your responsibility. I would advise to make a conscious decision to either retrain this pup or re home him to someone with experience with these animals. The issue you will come up against is rescues are over crowded right now and finding a reputable one might be a real job.
If I were you I would first and foremost have him altered. This is not only a way of curbing the testosterone, but it is a health issue. Secondly I would do some research in the area and find a behaviorist that has experience in wolf/dog crosses. They are geared a bit differently. Truly research, because there are a lot of wanna be's out there.
Until you get these things in place remember "The Walk" is truly a key to bonding with a dog. I would suggest a 45 min walk in the am and 45 in the pm. I'm not sure what the scientific reasoning is for it, I just know that with my pit rescues this is a big help. We seldom have human aggression, but they are prone to animal aggression. I have many animals in my home and dealing with animal on animal aggression is sometimes an issue.
The other thing I want to state is I also had a bad first opinion of, Cesar Millan but we can't discount that some of his methods work. The examples named on this thread are rare cases. He is primarily a dog psychologist, realizing that dogs are geared differently than humans. He does use positive reinforcement, but only after the dog knows it's place in the pack. Dogs need a leader. You and your mom must become the leader for you to change the behaviors.
I wish you and Beez well, and am sure if you put your mind to it you can retrain him and make him a loved and appreciated member of your household.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

The other thing I want to state is I also had a bad first opinion of, Cesar Millan but we can't discount that some of his methods work. The examples named on this thread are rare cases. He is primarily a dog psychologist, realizing that dogs are geared differently than humans. He does use positive reinforcement, but only after the dog knows it's place in the pack. Dogs need a leader. You and your mom must become the leader for you to change the behaviors.

Actually, I have watched many of his episodes and he doesn't use positive reinforcement he uses punishment regularly in every episode. He is not considered reliable or knowledgeable among experts in our field at all. Flooding, his primary method is extremely inhumane and typically makes the dogs worse. He calls himself "dog psychologist" to create a buzz phrase but he actually does not understand animal behavior or learning theory at all. His methods only appear to "work" in that they suppress behaviors which is what all punishment does. They do not teach the dog what to do instead. They do not protect the dog from what makes him uncomfortable. And, they do not teach the dog to become more comfortable around those triggers. Pack theory training and methodology are punishment based and science based trainers have not been doing that for a long time. Dogs are not wolves. Dogs also do not live in packs. Wild dogs do not live in packs. They sometimes live in loose associated groups, but they do not live in packs. So, the old school pack theory methods that used to be so popular really have no place in dog training. This has nothing to do with "being a leader" this has to do with a dog being extremely uncomfortable around humans and needing to learn that they are safe and how to feel comfortable around them. I work with dogs, including aggressive dogs professionally and I have seen the things he recommends make dogs worse all the time. All they do is continue to fracture the dog/human relationship and make dogs more defensive. That is why he is regularly bitten on his show.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Thanks everyone for your help

Beez does know we are packleaders. He will roll over, whine, and lay against us (us OLDER family members). He is just so screwed up by how my brother tried to train him when he was a puppy. He used classical training (spankings, grabbing the neck and saying NO, etc). My brother would yell at him if he started to play with the neighbors dog or kids, etc. So Beez has become anti social and aggressive to other dogs and people. He does NOT bite us family members, but he HAS nipped at a few people (I am not one of them). I would not be able to walk Beez, unless I use a spike collar on him, it would be too risky for people and animals. But I will give it a try, I will try to walk him.

Me and my pooch run 2 miles a day, in the morning and at night. And she comes with me whenever I go to the parks, etc. Which I go more so in the summer with my birds and my pooch. We have had wolf-hybrids before. 2 other females, and they were wonderful. I think it was how we trained and raised them.

We have 3 acres of fensed in backyard, so our dogs do get to run, and play and be dogs for the most, part. And our cats are indoors when Beez is allowed to run outdoors. And he only tries to dominate older cats and my dog, he has never physically hurt them. But he tries to make them roll over, etc. He can be around these animals fine, unless they go near his food dish, which we have trained Lindy my pooch and our kitties to not go near the food dish. But Beez has killed kittens, today was his 3rd one he has killed in his 3.5years of life. And the kittens have always been under 5 months of age. This is why we have a cat room which is our utility room, they are fed in there, litter box, cat gyns and post, and our laundry room stuff in there. Our personal family cats are allowed inside the house, and they have been trained to not go near the dog food areas (for fear Beez will kill or hurt them).

Now I have trained my dog (rotty-blue heeler mix) the basic commands (sit, stay, roll over, to walk on a leash with no pulling, etc) all by the means of positive reinforcement. I am thinking, I may start Beez with the basics, and see where I go? I have been reading a lot about dog training for the past few hours. I do have to say that Beez is already trained in basic commands, but I want to advance it so he doesnt feel the instinct to kill a kitten if another accident ever happens again and one sneaks inside the house.


Im also of the belief that any dog can be trained. But my brother and my mom and I got in an argument,saying he isnt trainable and that all of these behavioral problems are all instinctual and natural.. I want to prove them wrong. Dogs no matter what the breed are NOT throw away pets.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Im also of the belief that any dog can be trained. But my brother and my mom and I got in an argument,saying he isnt trainable and that all of these behavioral problems are all instinctual and natural.. I want to prove them wrong. Dogs no matter what the breed are NOT throw away pets.

Mercedez,

You are correct that ANY animal is capable of learning. Of course Beez is trainable, but you have to take extra precautions because he is aggressive. You can absolute succeed at training Beez, but I do not believe he should ever be trusted with small animals or strangers. It is your responsibility (or whoever is taking care of him) to keep him and them safe. I know that you believe he is okay with your other animals, but please know that this could change and he absolutely could hurt or kill them. I am sorry to have to say this, but it is true and I want to be very clear about that.

Throw away any thoughts in your head about "pack leader" and all that garbage. It has nothing to do with training animals. I have worked with LARGE, extremely dangerous zoo animals that could kill you, we do not think about social hierarchy when working with them, we think about behavior, what we see and what we want to build. So please, let all that go. It won't help you with him. What you want is a cooperative and mutually respectful relationship with a dog. What you need to teach Beez is that all good things come from you. I would immediately start Nothing In Life Is Free where he has to work for ALL of his resources. I would also use positive reinforcement training to teach basic behaviors sit, down, come here, out, off, leave it to an extremely reliable rate. I would also do a ton of impulse control training.

Also, please do NOT use a pinch collar with him. This is aversive and will increase his anxiety. Also, if he sees a person or dog, and pulls or lunges it will hurt him and create more negative associations to people and other dogs. You should get an Easy Walk Harness which hooks on the chest so that you can have more control. I have put these on 180 pound dogs and had the owner have immediate control of their dog.

If you want to PM me again, I will send you some information to train these behaviors.

 

[Gilraen]

If you're afraid that he'll hurt someone when you walk him, have you considered getting a halti or a gentle leader? And is there anywhere near you where you can walk him away from other people, or at least until he gets better about being walked, could you walk him at night so he doesn't have as many people around to be upset by? I've not heard many bad reviews of them, and at least if he starts to pull you one way, you could get him going a different one.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

If you're afraid that he'll hurt someone when you walk him, have you considered getting a halti or a gentle leader? And is there anywhere near you where you can walk him away from other people, or at least until he gets better about being walked, could you walk him at night so he doesn't have as many people around to be upset by? I've not heard many bad reviews of them, and at least if he starts to pull you one way, you could get him going a different one.

A Gentle Leader or Halti is certainly a better choice than a pinch collar.

 

[Sophie's Mama]

T
Im also of the belief that any dog can be trained. But my brother and my mom and I got in an argument,saying he isnt trainable and that all of these behavioral problems are all instinctual and natural.. I want to prove them wrong. Dogs no matter what the breed are NOT throw away pets.

H - - - has frozen over...We agree on something!
I think you are just hard headed enough to train Beez! Some things in dogs ARE instinctual, but teaching them that some behaviors are unacceptable and some aren't is the key. Do your research and I appreciate the fact that you didn't jump on the band wagon to just re home. You may need to eventually, but training is always the first step.

I do believe in the pack theory. I love with 7 dogs! It is a pack, they function as a pack, everyone has a place and knows it. It saves on dog on dog aggression and we have very few issues even when bringing in a shelter dog who has never been with our pups. There are many training methods our there, you just have to find the one that works for you, and run with it. I must say getting this dog altered is a really important first step. It is by no means a fix all, but some dogs are more aggressive than others and it does curb it most of the time.

This is only my opinion, I have been in rescue for many years and have been bringing shelter dogs into my home and my group of pups. It has been successful, but always take any advice you can and use the parts that work for you. Good Luck to both you an Beez.

PS..Would love to see a pic, I love those dogs!

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I love with 7 dogs! It is a pack, they function as a pack, everyone has a place and knows it.

Actually, a group of 7 unrelated canines living together is not a pack. A "pack" is a family of related wolves, usually the parents and then offspring of varying ages. This is a pack and it functions as a family with the parents teaching by example. A group of 7 (or 10 dogs, in my case, which also always has rescues and training client dogs coming through) is simply a group of dogs. There has only been one study (and it was not published) on social hierarchy in dogs and what it showed was there there is no linear hierarchy and that the dynamics were extremely fluid and ever changing.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I sincerely want to train B, using positive reinforcement than using anything negative. I have used the pinch collar on my dog when she was a puppy, she learned quickly. But that is all I knew back when I was 12. She would pull, then cough, and we would stop for a minute, then walk again, she'd pull, cough, then stop, and it only went on for a day, and she learned to never pull agan, and I havent used it since she was 6months old.

I would love to know where to purchase the Easy Walk Harness. I do have one of those head halter things for dogs, but never tried it.

I 100% understand and realize that he is NOT safe around other animals and strangers, he is never left alone with them. When we leave he goes into his kennel, and he is always supervised/ has someone in the same room with him as another animals (since the 1st kitten accident).

 

[BraveheartDogs]

I would love to know where to purchase the Easy Walk Harness. I do have one of those head halter things for dogs, but never tried it.

I 100% understand and realize that he is NOT safe around other animals and strangers, he is never left alone with them. When we leave he goes into his kennel, and he is always supervised/ has someone in the same room with him as another animals (since the 1st kitten accident).

Head halters are good but most dogs don't like them and they usually need a lot of desensitization and counter conditioning to get them used to them. I can send you an Easy Walk Harness if we can figure out the size. Or, if you have a Petsmart near you, you can get one there.

The other thing I would do is start testing out his highest value food rewards and use that in your "stranger danger" training Strangers (at a safe distance so they don't upset him) = great things for him.

 

[Ally]

i had a pitbull that was sweet as could be to me, and anyone else as long as they respected what was his, he was very loyal, but i had a cat problem... i suggest getting him fixed, seeing as your brother does not have much to do with him, that should tone down the aggression alot... it worked wonders for my dog

 

[Bokkapooh]

Beez and Lindy both like the same things, MEAT and any dog treat realler (not milk bones). I feed my dog VEGAN dog cookies, and both Lindy and Beast go NUTS for these.. they mind their manners, and do any type of thing they know to get them (sitting, laying down, etc). But they do like meaty dog treats too, but I dont see too many that are bite sizes.

Beez (and Lindy) do occasionally get bones with meat on them (like lamb and beef bones) with cartilege on it, etc.

 

[BraveheartDogs]

Beez and Lindy both like the same things, MEAT and any dog treat realler (not milk bones).

I would use meat for Beez's training. It has to be something that he LOVES not just something he will eat. You are looking at shifting his emotional state and that takes a lot. I use all left over meat in our house for dog training. You can take and cook any kind of meat and just cut it into tiny pieces. And, use different ones, mix it up.