• Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
    Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here

Pictures Advice for Stunted Cockatiel

Nof

Moving in
Joined
8/5/14
Messages
13
tl;dr: I have an 11-day-old cockatiel chick who has been handfed from day 1. Growth has been very slow. He's currently just shy of 15 grams. Eyes have opened and he's got the start of feathers on his wings and head. I contacted an avian vet, who said he didn't need to come in and would catch up, and said his poor growth was because of his hard start (info below). I am curious if there is anything I can do to improve his growth or alleviate complications from stunting, as there is little info I can find.

For background: have never raised parrots before, have a little experience with finches. Had been attempting to prevent two of my cockatiels from breeding for four months. I thought I was clear because sexytimes and broodiness had stopped, and then my hen surprised me with 4 eggs. I was going to boil the eggs, but I (foolishly) caved to my family's desire to see the eggs hatch, and the male's adorable habit of singing to his eggs when he was sitting on them.

Parents smashed one egg, one egg died very early in incubation (suspected chilling--they started sitting as soon as the first egg was laid, but didn't sit reliably at first), the third egg hatched, and the fourth died at around 15-16 days of incubation. I opened the fourth egg, and the chick was perfectly formed, in hatching position, with long down, but was extremely small--it took up only half the egg. I am not sure what the cause of death was. There was no obvious deformity aside from the tiny size and no smell or sign of infection.

Third egg had a hard time hatching. I candled and saw the internal pip, but 48 hours later there was still no external pip. There were ever-expanding hairline cracks centered on where the pip ought to have been, so at 48 hours I made a small hole in the egg. Veins were completely absorbed aside from 1 small vein, and the yolk was nearly completely absorbed. Once yolk was entirely absorbed, I helped the chick out of the egg, let him dry and warm up under the heat lamp, and tried to re-introduce him to its parents. Parents were freaked out by the baby, but mostly stayed on their nest so I left them for a bit. Came back to check on them, and the chick was a few inches from the eggs and cool. Warmed chick up and put him back in next to the eggs. Left the parents for awhile. Came back again, and the chick was even further from the eggs, chilled, buried under the wood chips, and had a few scratches. He had a nip on the back of his head that bled enough to scab over, but I don't think he lost much blood. He also had scratches under his eye and one behind his wing that did not bleed but were inflamed. So I pulled him.

I have not hand-fed before, but aside from early problems with a mislabeled syringe it's gone well. Because I was trying to get his parents to take him back, he didn't get food for close to 24 hours after hatching. I got a syringe for feeding medicine to babies from the drug store that was labeled cc's, but was not the same measurement as the handfeeding syringe I got from the pet store. Each cc on the drug store syringe was about 1/3 of each cc in the pet store syringe. So for the first two days, he was underfed. I don't have his weight for the first few days either--I had two kitchen gram scales that I thought would work for weighing the chick, but they had trouble registering so low a weight and didn't read the same. He's been slowly gaining weight since day 5--about 1 gram/day--and has recently started accelerating--gaining 2.5 grams/day.

It took a while for his crop to get going. He digested pretty slowly the first few days, but that's corrected itself. Currently he's eating 1.4 cc's of formula reliably every 3-3.5 hours. He's very active and vocal and has a very strong feeding response. His mother is relatively small--about 90 grams--but his father is more typically sized.

Any advice would be very appreciated! I've contacted several vets and local people for advice but have been brushed off or not told much every time.

Pictures are from an hour ago. He's not red in real life, that's just my camera.

IMG_20140811_093704171_zpsq4uzzhr4.jpg IMG_20140811_093708956_zpshq6mjvzp.jpg
 

Bokkapooh

Ripping up the road
Avenue Veteran
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/18/09
Messages
25,464
Location
Pacific Northwest
Real Name
Mercedez
Doesnt seem like youre feeding him as much as he should.

The recent photo from an hour ago shows a very hungry baby. You dont have to wait until the crop is empty to feed. The food seen in crop in photo is what you want to see in the crop before feeding again. And normally fed every 1-2hours. And you want to feed probably 3ccs to create a very nicely rounded crop.

And active unfeathered baby bird is a starving baby bird.
 

Nof

Moving in
Joined
8/5/14
Messages
13
I took pictures right before feeding him. I'm feeding 10% of weight, and 1.4 mLs fills his crop.
 

sunnysmom

Ripping up the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
9/16/13
Messages
28,915
Location
Pennsylvania
Real Name
Michelle
Hi, Welcome to the forum. I don't have any experience with baby tiels but here is an excerpt from one of our member's website who I consider an expert on tiel babies.

"If a chick is stunted it can be seen as early as a week old. The most common cause is a hard packed crop, with very little fluids which creates dehydration within the digestive tract and organs. Assist feeding a chick a diluted formula and working it into the existing food in the crop, will help hydrate the chick, and also the additional fluids will help with digestion. If severely dehydrated you can mix up an electrolye solution to use as the water to mix the formula, or use Coconut Water, found at most grocery stores. One thing I had learned when working with chicks is that when they are dehydrated digestion is slower. If there is a problem of yeast/bacteria in the digestive tract the slower movement of food contributes to not only additional absorption of nutrients from the food, but also the absorption of pathogens" (srtiels)

She has more info on her website at: Assist Feeding Chicks In The Nest - Just Cockatiels!
 

Bokkapooh

Ripping up the road
Avenue Veteran
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/18/09
Messages
25,464
Location
Pacific Northwest
Real Name
Mercedez
Is he still active after feeding? Does his crop take 3-4 hours to empty 3/4 of its contents?
 

Nof

Moving in
Joined
8/5/14
Messages
13
@sunnysmom Yep, I've been using srtiel's site extensively!

@Bokkapooh he gets really excited for maybe 10 minutes after eating, but sleeps soundly otherwise between feedings. He takes about 3-3:30 hours to empty his crop nearly completely, probably 2:45-3:15 to empty 3/4 of the way.
 

Bokkapooh

Ripping up the road
Avenue Veteran
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
10/18/09
Messages
25,464
Location
Pacific Northwest
Real Name
Mercedez
If he's still begging, you may want to increase his amount of food per feeding. Ive never followed the 10% of weight textbook feeding on very young baby birds. I feed until they stop begging. They shouldnt be awake for 10 mins after a feeding when theyre featherless.

Im surprised it takes so long to empty his crop still though. Any pics of him when he's full?

Have you thought about taking him to the vet? Sounds like he still has slow digesting issues.
 

Nof

Moving in
Joined
8/5/14
Messages
13
I contacted my regular vet and another vet and both didn't think he needed to be seen, but I don't know that either has much experience with hatchlings. If they don't think he needs to be seen, I don't know that they'll know if something is wrong. Does anyone know of a vet in the Twin Cities, MN area that has experience with hatchlings?

I'll get full-crop pics next time I feed him. I just took these, an hour after feeding. Crop is less than half of what it was full, maybe 1/3 what it was full. He seems to digest the first bit really quickly, and then once his crop is less than 1/4 full his digestion really slows down.

 

Nof

Moving in
Joined
8/5/14
Messages
13
Full crop pictures, fed 1.5 mL/10% of weight:


 

Nof

Moving in
Joined
8/5/14
Messages
13
Decided to go to the vet, for peace of mind if nothing else.

Vet said crop was worryingly slow but not in stasis. It felt normal, it just wasn't emptying as fast as it ought to. Ran tests; bacteria is normal, yeast is normal, and no parasites. Heart and lungs sound good, proventriculus felt normal. We went through my feeding logs and she said everything was good. Her recommendation was to keep doing what I had been doing. If there's something congenital wrong with him (possible, given the other dead embryo and his parents' rejection) or he's got a virus, there's nothing we can do but provide supportive care.

I had not seen this vet before but I was very impressed with her. I saw Courtney Blake at Cedar Animal Hospital. Other reviews said their prices were very high, but my charge today was comparable to what I've paid for other avian vets.
 

meandmyfids

Sprinting down the street
Joined
10/19/13
Messages
438
Location
N.Y
Real Name
jay
Could it be what you are feeding I never had good luck with nutra start
 

Nof

Moving in
Joined
8/5/14
Messages
13
I mean, I suppose? I could try swapping over to another formula, although I don't want to stress him out further.
 

Birdbabe

Ripping up the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Avenue Concierge
Joined
11/17/09
Messages
26,105
Location
The valley of the sun
I hope baby continues to do OK. :hug8:
 

Monica

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
5/18/10
Messages
11,264
Location
Hell, NV
Real Name
Monica
The chick doesn't appear far behind development wise...

Cockatiel Growth Visual Guide



Is it possible that the formula isn't thick enough to get the right amount of nutrients??? I know that the formula is supposed to be on the thin side when they are at a very young age, but it's supposed to be thickened up some as they age, so they get more nutrients to water content.
 

CheekyBeaks

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
2/20/13
Messages
1,856
Location
QLD, Australia
Real Name
Ann-Marie
Firstly I have not raised a cockatiel before but am experienced raising other species.
Babies in the first couple of days really need to get hydrated first and foremost and it is a good idea to give an electrolyte solution mixed with a weak solution of handrearing mix, babies crops at this stage can't handle formula that is too thick. Feedings should be done every couple of hours.

To me 1.5ml sounds a little low for his age and it is worrying it is taking him so long to empty such a small amount.
What formula are you using and what is the consistency like? And what temp are you feeding it at? (I tend to feed at 40-41 degrees Celsius) If you are feeding a regular strength mix I would make it a little weaker as this will help it to pass out of the crop faster and easier for him to digest while his body catches up and increase the amount of feedings per day for the next day or so and see how the crop goes and watch his weight. You also need to start stretching his crop, this does need to be done slowly by increasing the amount of formula in small increments say you increase by a quarter of a ml then hold that for the next few feeds or up to a day then increase again. If the crop doesn't get stretched at the right stages and slowly you will never get to the full crop capacity and higher amounts of feeds per day will be required for a longer period of time. You need to be careful not to over stretch either as this will also lead to health issues. Also I ALWAYS make sure my babies crops are empty before each feed and my CAV agrees with this, letting food sit in the crop to often can lead to sour crop.
I would also be giving some electrolytes (if you can't find one specifically for birds the human product gastrolyte from the pharmacy can be used safely) at least a few times per day and adding some probiotics a couple of times per day too, this is important to get some good bacteria developed in his system and is very important for him as mum & dad never fed him to pass on their good bacteria. Mix both of these into the formula.
Also look at the temperature he is being brooded at if he is too cold that can contribute to a slow crop as well. Ideal temp at 5-12 days old is 31.6-36 degrees Celsius.
Make sure that between feeds he is kept in a quiet dark brooder to reduce stress and let's him rest well as any stress or lack of rest can also effect the crop emptying.
While this bub is 11 days old I really feel you need to be looking at him as a much younger baby which includes more frequent feedings as soon as you sort out his issues emptying his crop.
 

CheekyBeaks

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
2/20/13
Messages
1,856
Location
QLD, Australia
Real Name
Ann-Marie
The chick doesn't appear far behind development wise...

Cockatiel Growth Visual Guide



Is it possible that the formula isn't thick enough to get the right amount of nutrients??? I know that the formula is supposed to be on the thin side when they are at a very young age, but it's supposed to be thickened up some as they age, so they get more nutrients to water content.
Actually he looks very much behind to me, look at the 10day old chick it has a very full looking plump heavy body, the bub in question here is tiny and frail and also has an obvious dished in head behind the cere, very much a sign of a stunted baby. To me other than the open eyes looks more like a 5-6 day old and seems dehydrated too.
 

Nof

Moving in
Joined
8/5/14
Messages
13
@CheekyBeaks

I did start off feeding just pedialyte at first (US version of gastrolyte), graduating to thinned formula (consistency of about cream). I'm using Lafeber's NutriStart, which says to mix to the consistency of "creamy pudding", so I've been mixing to the consistency of those snack-pack puddings (mixing according to the directions--2.25 parts water to 1 part formula--ended up with something like milk? I did call Lafeber's and they said to disregard the amounts and do pudding consistency). I did feed at the vet, and she said consistency look about right. Feeding at 103-104F, which should be 39-40C. I originally mixed his formula with the pedialyte, switched to distilled water, and have now switched back to pedialyte.

Brooder's currently at 96F/35.5C. He starts shivering if it goes below that.

I'm trying to feed "as needed", but his crop emptying so slowly means he ends up having hours between feedings when ideally I would like to have him eating more often. I'll start mixing a more dilute formula and see if that helps with the emptying.

@Monica developmentally he doesn't seem far behind other hand-fed cockatiels--his eyes opened on schedule and his feathers are only a day behind. But weight-wise he's about half of what he ought to be and is not gaining as fast as he should.
 

CheekyBeaks

Rollerblading along the road
Joined
2/20/13
Messages
1,856
Location
QLD, Australia
Real Name
Ann-Marie
For a healthy chick with no crop issues that consistency would be fine, but as he is struggling to empty and is slow if it were me I would be thinning it a little until his crop movement improves and he can handle the thicker mix then gradually thicken it back up.
Your feeding and brooder temp sound fine so temps shouldn't be an issue here.
Adding a little apple cider vinegar (just a drop or two in a feed) once to twice a day will also help prevent a fungal infection if food sits in the crop too long.

@melissasparrots may also be able to offer her experience here too
 

Nof

Moving in
Joined
8/5/14
Messages
13
@CheekyBeaks thanks for your help! I'll be heading to the local bird store too to see if they have avian probiotics--I'm pretty sure they carry Harrison's. They don't open for 3 more hours though.
 
Top