Free Flight.. is it frowned upon?

[Sadieladie1994]

In looking up a few things I came across this article and thought I would share it.

So you want to train your pet parrot for freeflight…. | Learning Parrots

 

[shanlung]

I LOVE the idea of free flight, and will most definitely train a bird to do it in my lifetime. In the meantime, I am working towards flying Ruby outdoors with the aviator flight line. If you follow Birdtricks on Facebook, they regularly post gorgeous photos of their entire flock including a toucan free flying outdoors. BirdTricks.com - Dalton Gardens, ID - Pet Service | Facebook

No Birdtricks. This is what I think of them.
Shared by all those I know who are good with birds

On birdtricks.com and bozos

As for freeflights done in the open, perhaps folks thinking of that might want to read this guide

To Shanlung - How to do Free Flight Outside

 

[CaliEckies]

I didn't free flight my female Eclectus as she was fully flighted but due to being in a small cage for 7 years was unable to gain flight sadly we did allow her to climb and play in a huge tree I have in my backyard. I understood the risk I was taking. If she couldn't see me she was flock call until I came back into view. She was very bonded to me. Having said that she never climbed out of reach. She just liked sitting in our big tree being a bird. And I felt like she deserved that bit of freedom. We do flight train Monster but he recalls 50% of the time so I wouldn't take him outside without a harness.

 

[Sarah13]

I'm pro free flight so you'll get support from me. Chris Brio and BTs Womachs and some others all have good information and inspirational stories to motivate and teach you. Yes Womachs are very SHAMWOW with their website/videos but in the end, their birds show you the results of their hard work and the possibilities so I don't hate on them one bit.....especially since they started their Free Flyers Club. It is much more serious and professional. They offer an intensive, several week long, in person, one on one...well 2....you and your bird.....free flight training program. Not many people seem to know about it and always knock them based on their basic training and tricks DVDs which yes they are quite corny. but it is not a fair way to be judged considering what their birds can do. Brio offers a similar course as well. Also, if a bird is lost from an owner just following their advice, the trainers are NOT to blame. People try to do that to free fly trainers all the time. grrr Okay, done defending free flight trainers and the use of common sense.

My GW girl flies all the time. She sucked majorly when I first adopted her several months ago(she's 7 I'm her 3rd home) but now she's doing quite well and has control and stamina building each session. She's starting to enjoy it too. We go outside daily too unless it ridiculously cold out, but we don't fly much out there yet. Getting there though! Of course there will be videos and photos. You know the facts and risks so be careful, don't let people get you down, and have fun letting your bird(s) do what what they were born to do. I'd rather my girl live 10 years flying and being a bird fit and happy than 80 years trapped in a cage, perhpas clipped, the list goes on. Definitely pros and cons to both sides of the flight coin. It's up to you and your fids!

 

[Monica]

Chris Biro offered a free-flight course for something like $1,000.... he then taught the Womach Brothers, for free, how to free-fly parrots. They, in turn, turned around and offered free-flight classes for $5,000 or so.


I haven't liked Bird Tricks in a long while, and I'm starting to think that Chris Biro may not be an ideal trainer to go to, either. Instead, I think Barbara Heidenreich of Good Bird Inc and Chris Shank of Cockatoo Downs (and one other trainer I can't think of atm), plus Steve Martin of Natural Encounters would be better trainers to follow than Bird Tricks or Chris Biro.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

Chris Biro offered a free-flight course for something like $1,000.... he then taught the Womach Brothers, for free, how to free-fly parrots. They, in turn, turned around and offered free-flight classes for $5,000 or so.


I haven't liked Bird Tricks in a long while, and I'm starting to think that Chris Biro may not be an ideal trainer to go to, either. Instead, I think Barbara Heidenreich of Good Bird Inc and Chris Shank of Cockatoo Downs (and one other trainer I can't think of atm), plus Steve Martin of Natural Encounters would be better trainers to follow than Bird Tricks or Chris Biro.

Those would be my choices as well Monica

 

[Sarah13]

Good to know.....Chris Biro is $300 plus whatever it would cost to travel there etc for his class and BTs is $6,500 for free flight. This was quoted to me for my particular bird.
Why is Chris bad? He doesn't do food management to the degree if at all compared to BTs. His birds fly safe and are happy. He's been flying and training for over 20 years I think it said and he recommended Barbara Heidenreich and Steve Martin as great resources to look into for your bird as well. Please enlighten me why he's not good anymore. Thanks!

 

[Monica]

Chris Biro's new price is Skype only. I was referring to the price he used to charge people to train them in person where he lives. He's bad in the sense that he has lost countless birds to various accidents that could have been prevented, and he was reckless about his own birds' safety. I don't know how many birds he has lost, but apparently more than I thought he had. I used to be a huge supporter of Chris, but now I'm kind of iffy about it. I don't have much details, but some of it was talked about on this forum, and there's some info here and there on his ex's FB page.


I heard Bird Tricks was charging from $5,000 to $6,000+ for their course.... which I found ridiculous since they are amateurs in free-flight, learned for free, and it sounds as if they don't feed their birds enough food.


Chris Shank, along with Barbara Heidenreich, teach a Positive Parrot Training Retreat in July at Cockatoo Downs. They do it every year, once a year, with a small class and charge about $1,100-$1,200 per attendee. (depending on when you pay) I wanted to go to the 2014 one, but they ended up cancelling it this year. Although it's not about training free-flight so much as it is about training in general (problem behaviors, recall, trick training, etc), Shank's cockatoo's are free-flighted and you can work with those birds!

Positive Parrot Training Retreat 2015 - COCKATOO DOWNS

 

[ratgirl]

Chris Biro offered a free-flight course for something like $1,000.... he then taught the Womach Brothers, for free, how to free-fly parrots. They, in turn, turned around and offered free-flight classes for $5,000 or so.


I haven't liked Bird Tricks in a long while, and I'm starting to think that Chris Biro may not be an ideal trainer to go to, either. Instead, I think Barbara Heidenreich of Good Bird Inc and Chris Shank of Cockatoo Downs (and one other trainer I can't think of atm), plus Steve Martin of Natural Encounters would be better trainers to follow than Bird Tricks or Chris Biro.

----------


The Womach's use way too much weight management, based on the behavior of some of their birds in their videos. I don't support the either, because they basically market other people's ideas as their own. Most of the information is available for free, too.

Chris Biro is another can of worms. I did learn a lot from him over the years. A lot of it was what NOT to do...

Barbara Heidenreich is a great resource, as is Hillary Hanky of Avian Behavior International. She's been doing hands on courses too at her facility in CA. Her website is Avian Behavior International |

Dana

 

[ratgirl]

Good to know.....Chris Biro is $300 plus whatever it would cost to travel there etc for his class and BTs is $6,500 for free flight. This was quoted to me for my particular bird.
Why is Chris bad? He doesn't do food management to the degree if at all compared to BTs. His birds fly safe and are happy. He's been flying and training for over 20 years I think it said and he recommended Barbara Heidenreich and Steve Martin as great resources to look into for your bird as well. Please enlighten me why he's not good anymore. Thanks!

Chris has lost a lot of birds over the years. Many due to bad husbandry, but some do to sloppy free flight practices. He had a scarlet macaw killed by a neighbors dogs last year. The neighbor had told him the bird was coming over to her place and was worried about the dogs. He just turned her loose unsupervised every day anyway. Until the dogs got her. Don't worry though, somebody gave him a new bird. He's lost that one at least once and got it back.

Dana

 

[ratgirl]

Ive been friends with Mare since she left the forum. We keep in contact on FB.


Mare does the same thing as quite of cockatoo owners do here in WA.

There is a guy with 18 rescue M2s who allows them to free fly in northern WA state. All on his property.

Cockatoo downs, a cockatoo rescue, free flies all her rescue cockatoos on her property.

Mare does the same. On her property.

They arent like conventional free flight people. But what they have in common is that they live in wilderness on huge acreages of land.

I used to be dead set against this. However once getting to know Mares method and know her more personally and know Amigo. I felt good about it.

These birds view the wild as their cage. They develope a great sense of security at where theyre at. They are very territorial of their space. Unlike Michael's birds who are dependent 100% on Michael.

Amigo forages on the nut trees on Mares property and comes to Mare for food and water too.

I honestly am not sure if free flight is the correct term for people who's birds live this lifestyle. Maybe a better term is just plain freedom?

I think the first person you mention from Washington is Andrew Bradnan. He's got at least that many M2's. Andrew lives in a urbanish area, but he's got neighbors. Not huge aceage

Chris Shank does not do rescue. The birds she flys are birds she raised and bred years ago. She's got several acreas in a rural farming area in Oregon. Her birds do occasionally get into trouble with neighbors, and it's why she left California. As her birds have matured, she's had to make changes to things like which birds can be out with others, etc. It's been interesting to follow over the years.

I don't know about Andrew, but I know Chris doesn't fly her birds when she's not home. They have huge aviaries with an indoor barn part to stay comfortable in the winter.

I live in a fairly rural area, on an acrea and a quarter on a dead end road. I don't have to worry about cars so much, but I do need to be aware of raptors, and there are huge areas of trees so it can be hard to keep an eye on them when they do huge flights.

Free flight is a lifestyle, and not for everyone, but if you can do it, have the right bird, good training, and the nerves to handle it, it can be great fun

Dana

 

[ratgirl]

I have really enjoyed reading the recent threads on this topic, which have remained largely courteous and very informative. Free flight isn't something I would ever consider with my little green cheek, living where I do in a big city and him being such a nice snack size for a hawk or falcon. But I respect those who do so responsibly and carefully, who have been so informative about how they work to minimize the risks of providing this kind of enrichment and being very clear that it is not for everyone.

Yeah, a conure sized bird is too small for me to be comfortable flying. Some people do it well in flocks, but I don't need a flock of conures

The great thing is, a bird the size of a conure can get a lot of exercise flying around inside your house!

Dana

 

[ratgirl]

I absolutely agree with you post.

I however know from my experience with my cockatoos. They arent food motivated like my macaw is. And all the people I spoke about were people with cockatoos who use their bond and cuddles and touch as a reinforcer. Thats what I meant by using their "bond".

I need to edit: Last I knew of Andrew, he didnt use food as a reinforcer for his M2s. Not sure about Chris. But Mare does not use food as a reinforcer. Just uses Amigos mate-like bond as a reinforcer.

That would make me nervous! I don't know about Andrew, but Chris Shank's birds will fly to her and do behaviors for treats while out flying. She gets them back in at the end of the day with their dinner. So anything that eats is 'food motivated'!

The key there is not withholding food, just withholding FAVORITE foods, like nuts, or whatever that to die for treat is, from their daily diet. Use that for training and interacting with them, but they get their regular diet every day as usual. I am also exploring using reinforcers like toys or physical games with them too. For instance, my birds LOVE pony beads. So sometimes when I recall them, instead of a bit of nut or whatever, they get a pony bead to beak in half. It also makes them more curious about what they will get for a behavior if you mix it up all the time.

The biggest reason is, I don't believe that a 'mate-like bond' is a good thing for a parrot. At best, it's unfair and can cause a lot of problems down the road for the bird and other human family members. I want to be my bird's good buddy, not their parent or their mate.

Dana

 

[Sadieladie1994]

That would make me nervous! I don't know about Andrew, but Chris Shank's birds will fly to her and do behaviors for treats while out flying. She gets them back in at the end of the day with their dinner. So anything that eats is 'food motivated'!
The key there is not withholding food, just withholding FAVORITE foods, like nuts, or whatever that to die for treat is, from their daily diet. Use that for training and interacting with them, but they get their regular diet every day as usual. I am also exploring using reinforcers like toys or physical games with them too. For instance, my birds LOVE pony beads. So sometimes when I recall them, instead of a bit of nut or whatever, they get a pony bead to beak in half. It also makes them more curious about what they will get for a behavior if you mix it up all the time.

The biggest reason is, I don't believe that a 'mate-like bond' is a good thing for a parrot. At best, it's unfair and can cause a lot of problems down the road for the bird and other human family members. I want to be my bird's good buddy, not their parent or their mate.

Dana

Reinforcers can vary depending on the activity the animal and the trainer. My birds will come for a nut....macaw, conure, vasa, ekkie. The tooz came for attention. One macaw came for "the game".. Having trained dogs in flyball reinforcers were more effective with toys than food. I had a couple of food motivated dogs but toy drive is extremely strong in dogs and they will do anything to get their favorite toy when trained to toy drive. The toy is better so they don't eat and race which is not always the best. One macaw watched the dogs play and his reinforcer became play. He LOVES play and if he had enough food play is still available. He seems to like touchy feely wrestling type of games. The best part with the bird is he makes all the appropriate sounds/talks when played with Whoah, watch that, oooh, wow, uhoh, stop that, I get YOU! and final but not least NO BITE if I get him too much 99

 

[SueA555]

I wouldn't risk it.

 

[ratgirl]

Reinforcers can vary depending on the activity the animal and the trainer. My birds will come for a nut....macaw, conure, vasa, ekkie. The tooz came for attention. One macaw came for "the game".. Having trained dogs in flyball reinforcers were more effective with toys than food. I had a couple of food motivated dogs but toy drive is extremely strong in dogs and they will do anything to get their favorite toy when trained to toy drive. The toy is better so they don't eat and race which is not always the best. One macaw watched the dogs play and his reinforcer became play. He LOVES play and if he had enough food play is still available. He seems to like touchy feely wrestling type of games. The best part with the bird is he makes all the appropriate sounds/talks when played with Whoah, watch that, oooh, wow, uhoh, stop that, I get YOU! and final but not least NO BITE if I get him too much 99

Exactly! Every individual is a study of one. This is where history with training that animal comes in handy. That, and it is a good idea to keep conditioning new reinforcers over the animal's lifetime. Heck, even for me, one day I might work for chocolate, then next day, meh. Backrub might do it though!

 

[Sarah13]

Thank you Dana about the icky infor on Chris. I figured out about BTs but wasn't entirely sure what was wrong with Chris Biro. I know a few groups that freefly. I'll research them more. There has to be SOMEBODY here in the US who avidly and responsibly flies their birds.

 

[Rabb.D]

i just gave my hill mynah its first free flight in its life outdoors yesterday, it just flew in circles and started panting then i brought it back inside... it all depends on the environment, how much the bird loves and trust you and whether it'll come back or not... a big open field i'm assuming is the best option as there's no where for the bird to go, i was quite sure mine wouldn't go away... though i could never be certain 100 percent... but when i let it perch on my hand outside... it just stared out blankly almost like it was thinking "ok what dyu expect me to do ??"

but honestly i wouldn't do it anytime again too soon

 

[ratgirl]

Thank you Dana about the icky infor on Chris. I figured out about BTs but wasn't entirely sure what was wrong with Chris Biro. I know a few groups that freefly. I'll research them more. There has to be SOMEBODY here in the US who avidly and responsibly flies their birds.

I know several that do.

 

[shanlung]

FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.
NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD.

For a tiny country of Taiwan, and with the largest number of raptors per square mile on Earth, there are more free fliers there than in USA or anywhere else
Done on almost every weekends other than in winter time.

I might have been the catalyst when I started flying Tinkerbell in Taiwan and riding with her on my bike 14 and more years ago. Birdies were almost all clipped in Taiwan 14 years ago
TV clips had been made of me increasing my exposure to even more than the thousands who had seen of me and Tink as we went out everyday and every weekend.


Try to seat somewhere firm before you see these couple of videos.
Do not judge how he kept his birdies. Do not EEE or EKKK at their cages.
Remember they the birdies, have a choice of not coming back.
And he is doing this on a daily basis.

Or I might have been totally irrelevant to what happened there.
Chris and many other names worshipped in USA are not known there or cared about there.

In Pingtung South Taiwan

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152307138108297

In Taipei

Not only not all birdies are suitable for this.
Not all humans are suitable for this either. And when those two combined, even that much less so.

That being said, the right combination is possible. Such as below.
I think it is better to accept that then to deny all possiblity of that.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152366413088297

Things done must primarily be done for benefit to birdies.
ln which if flight is allowed to birdie at home (flight in aviary is a joke unless it is a HUMONGOUS aviary), and the respiratory system of birdie allowed to work with the air sacs and lungs

95% of benefits of flying will be already given to birdie.
Might even be 99% or more just to be allowed to fly in the house.

FREE FLIGHTS IN OPEN GIVE MAYBE 0.1% BENEFIT TO A BIRDIE ALREADY FLYING ABOUT IN THE HOUSE.

So you are already doing very very well by the birdie to allow birdie to fly at home.
The risk of free flight is great. Should be left to the mentally unbalanced folks.

We love our birdies as much if not more than anyone else.

But we are not quite right in the head as I really cannot think of logical and rational explanation

So be normal.
Do not be like us.
But be free to enjoy what we do.



FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.
NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD.