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What seeds does your Amazon like to eat?

M&M Ninja

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Seriously, talk to Jason Crean if you haven't already.
I have watched several of his podcasts, and I spoke to somebody at his company about the components in the small vs medium bird food (maybe it was him). I really appreciate his knowledge and research and was excited to try his food. (Cord loves it; Bea does not seem to see it as food.)

He is not a fan of cooked food (at all), which is similar to what @Linwood 's vet appears to be saying. From this thread, it seems like there are two camps (outside of the pellet conversation) - cooked food vs predominately seeds and sprouts.

I agree that birds in captivity get nowhere near the same amount of exercise as wild parrots, but I'm not certain about changing what they eat just because they are less active. It seems more reasonable to change how much they eat. So if they eat every bug they can find when in the wild, maybe they only get one bug in captivity. If they gorge on fruit when in season (in the wild), maybe only give them small portions of fruit in the wild.

You comment about parasites is interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

I have done several experiments based on the content of this thread, including...

I gave Bea a TON of nuts a couple of days ago, a very generous portion of scrambled eggs yesterday; and I gave her her normal foods as well. I also soaked some of the seed mix with some quinoa and have tried that mixed with scrambled eggs as well as on its own. I bought a sweet potato and mushed some seeds into that. She has eaten everything I've given her (with the exception of the wet quinoa-seed when it wasn't in eggs), yet her weight remains the same (382 grams this morning). I've also increased her access to fruits - an extra blueberry, some pieces of mango, a bite of apple when I'm eating it, etc.

Her activity level also remains high(er).

I don't know if I fall in pro-cooked food or not, but I'll keep trying everything.
 

M&M Ninja

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So I would recommend trying hard to get your amazon to eat pellets to provide a more wide spread base. You can go the raw, cold-pressed route (Tops) though mine won't touch them, or you can try something that's a bit sweeter and a bit more processed if they will accept it more. I think in the long run it's far better to use pellets as a good base part of the diet than try to fill it 100% with raw foods, not because it's better, but because humans are pretty fallible and pellets are a bit of a safety net.
I hear what you're saying and agree that pellets work great as a precaution against nutrient deficits created in our 'homemade' diets. My issue with pellets stem from taking something they are refusing to eat on their own (in Bea's case, seeds), mixing them up with palatable ingredients (often added sugar), adding synthetic vitamins that may not be absorbable and may cause harm, and including ultra-processed seeds oils which go rancid quickly and probably aren't great (the research is still out).

[Which makes me wonder - why are they adding so many vegetable oils? Is it to increase fat content? And if so, maybe that can be accomplished by feeding more nuts (aka big seeds).]

All that being said, I do agree that pellets have their place and it's important for a bird not to starve or have nutrient deficiencies. I might order another Tops sample and see if she'll eat that. Or I might just keep feeding her her daily dose of 4 pellets and try to increase everything else.
 

Linwood

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I hear what you're saying and agree that pellets work great as a precaution against nutrient deficits created in our 'homemade' diets.
Yes, and a bit more than that, as I said - humans are fallible. Pellets tend to not spoil (well, not nearly like fresh food), and at least in my experience can be left out all the time as they won't over-eat (I guess some parrots might of course).

If I get forgetful and don't refresh the veggie bowl, or it's not something palatable in today's parrot brain, or they manage to drop most of the veggies in the bottom and are still hungry, or I get delayed in returning by some emergency - there's always something moderately nutritious available to eat. And kind of like iodine in salt and other commonly added vitamins for humans, there's a bit of a safety net there.

I do worry though (about Roudybush), as she LIKES it. My horrible idea about human food is if I like it, it's bad for me, and I assume that applies to parrots but I hope not. I just put fresh sugar snaps and okra into the veggie bowl. We played a bit of tag getting her back into her cage as I plan to leave for a bit, and as I write this she ignored the fresh veggies and started eating the pellets. I just wonder if they are a bit too sweet and oily and that's the appeal.

Your question about why so many oils? My GUESS is partly to maintain keep them from powdering too badly, and partly because it makes them taste good. Pellets parrots reject don't cause repeat customers and the manufacturers have to balance getting a junk food reputation against having a product difficult to introduce (I think Tops is the latter).

I buy 10 pounds of Roudybush Medium at a time, but keep it in the fridge sealed, with about a week's supply in an air tight container near the cage for refills (Amazon cereal containers are great for this). I'm sure it can go rancid, but I also figure so long as the smell stays consistent when I open that container, it probably is not.
 

Mizzely

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Oils is also partly due to cost. Some vitamins can't be absorbed well without a fat. Yes, nuts would be ideal, but nuts add to the production and materials costs. It would be extremely easy to price yourself out of most budgets. If your company goal is profit and helping parrot owners feed a better diet than all seeds, then you have to make some adjustments that will achieve those goals.

If someone goes to the pet shop and sees 3 lbs of seeds for $18 next to 1 lb of bag of pellets for the same cost, not only are most uninformed people going to choose the seeds, it also makes the shelf space for the pellets unprofitable and they very well may stop carrying them at all.

It's all a delicate balance. Many people unfortunately aren't on forums or social media learning about bird diets. Most are being fed a dry food 100% of the time. Pellets aren't perfect, but I understand why they are the way they are.
 

Linwood

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If someone goes to the pet shop and sees 3 lbs of seeds for $18 next to 1 lb of bag of pellets for the same cost, not only are most uninformed people going to choose the seeds, it also makes the shelf space for the pellets unprofitable and they very well may stop carrying them at all.
Well, your average person who has done no research probably assumes birds eat seeds (or worms, what with the "early bird getting the worm" being taught). Even when they are seen (at least in the US) to eat fruit, it is berries which have seeds.

I also think pet store staff are often idiots. While I give due credit to the one I bought my amazon from raising her as a reasonably healthy and well adjusted bird, the owner told me she was surprised when I brought a green bean as a treat and the bird took it. She didn't know (she said) that parrots ate vegetables. And she would be making stocking decisions on what foods to carry, and recommendations to new owners what to feed.

People getting into owning birds are at the mercy of so much false and misleading information, some of it well intentioned but wrong, some of it disinformation to sell products, and some of it simply because people assume all birds are the same. There are days I wonder that many birds survive in captivity at all. I think it's a good thing they are more durable than we might imagine.
 

Finchbreed

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People getting into owning birds are at the mercy of so much false and misleading information, some of it well intentioned but wrong, some of it disinformation to sell products, and some of it simply because people assume all birds are the same.
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Oh so true.
And so many birds that live on too high a proportion of pellets get fatty liver disease.
The comment above about research what they eat in the wild and feed that in smaller portions is the thoughts of an enlightened person.
As is the observation that birds change their preferences - this is a natural thing - why?
Because nature provides different things at different times of the year - so the birds are programed to change according to their seasonal needs.
It is great so see you all so invested in getting the best nutrition for your birds - and remembering they are not as active as wild birds.
 

M&M Ninja

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Some more info and thoughts on fatty liver disease (FLD):

Ben Bikman is an excellent source of info on metabolism. He's a researcher and educator whose work "explores how calories and hormones shape body weight, chronic disease, and overall well-being."

I've listened to several of his podcasts regarding human metabolism, insulin resistance and fatty liver. Here is an excellent overview of fatty liver disease:

Note an important comment from that video: Insulin resistance is required to create fatty liver disease.

"Insulin resistance, a key player in metabolic disorders, is dissected into two components: impaired insulin action and chronically elevated insulin levels (hyperinsulinemia). Dr. Bikman highlights the crucial role of insulin in driving fat accumulation in the liver, explaining that elevated insulin is necessary for the liver to store fat and prevent its breakdown, even in the presence of excess free fatty acids. He elucidates how insulin resistance in fat cells leads to increased release of fatty acids, exacerbating fat accumulation in the liver."
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That's in people, of course. So then I found this great article -

Avian Liver: The Forgotten Organ

If you're familiar enough with human metabolism and physiology, it's straightforward(-ish) to understand what is being said about avian liver. There are a lot of gold nuggets throughout the various intro sections, including how quickly the liver utilizes fat in response to fasting, how different feed compositions impact fat deposition, and how nutrient density impacts liver weight.

The especially relevant tidbit is under the heading, "Fatty Liver Haemorrhagic Syndrome (FLHS)", which is a type of fatty liver disease specific to chickens. Like other forms of fatty liver, the condition is primary characterized by excessive fat accumulation in the liver. There are a few different hypothesizes as to exactly why FLHS occurs, but I've copy/pasted an excerpt from the article below my comments (bolding/underline are mine).

Okay, so parrots are not chickens, but we have to work with the research that has been done. What we can see here is that the biology of the avian hepatic system has considerable overlap with human biology - and we know a lot about human biology.

In the context of fatty liver disease in people, we know that prolonged elevated insulin (i.e. insulin resistance) is required to produce fatty liver disease. (The mechanism is clearly explained in the Bikman video.)

Why do we have insulin? How can we lower it?

Insulin plays an important role in regulating blood sugar levels and dictates how energy is utilized. When we eat - particularly, when we eat carbohydrates - our blood sugar rises and the release of insulin is triggered to facilitate glucose uptake by cells for energy. Put simply, when insulin is high, circulating fatty acids (ie. energy) are driven into storage (as fat). When insulin is very low, the body releases those fatty acids for use as fuel.

Lots of things can trigger an insulin release, but large insulin spikes (and bouts of fat storage) are driven by carb consumption. Whole foods with fiber or fat have a smaller insulin response. Exercise after eating can further lower the insulin response. Having more muscle mass, in general, is also better for glucose control as skeletal muscle processes a lot of glucose and can increase glucose sensitivity (source).

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In thinking about what to do for my birds, I've thought a lot about how metabolism works in people and what would make sense for birds. I've also thought about the references made to historical high instances of fatty liver disease. I can't find the actual data to explain what a 'high seed diet' is, so I can't do much with that information. However, a 'seed diet' is frequently a mix of seeds and grains.

Part of my conure's diet is a 'healthy' seed mix. It contains carbs - canary grass seed, millet, oat groats, veggies and fruit. It also has fattier seeds and nuts, as well as some flaxseed and peas to boost protein.

Looking at Zupreem natural, a popular pellet choice (also, I fed the fruity version to my grey for years and years), we have a very similar breakdown - ground corn, millet, oat groats, barley and wheat for carbs. Vegetable oil and ground flaxseeds for fat. Added fiber. Soybean meal for extra protein.

With the exception of the source of fat, they are very similar.

It probably bears repeating: Eating fat doesn't cause fatty liver. Insulin resistance leads to fatty liver disease. Both pellets and seed mixes have carbs, so both will lead to increased insulin levels. The carbs become problematic when there is never the opportunity for the insulin level to come down (i.e. periods of no carb availability) or when exercise is so low that there is little demand on the body to release those stored fats as fuel.

I think the real culprit here is high carb in the absence of exercise. Most young people and active animals can eat basically anything and their bodies will burn through it. If you remove exercise from the equation while continuing to feed readily stored nutrients (carbs), you're going to get an animal that becomes overweight and can develop fatty liver.

Info from the avian article:

"Fatty liver syndrome occurs when high producing hens are in over-supply of energy or a positive energy balance, but the presence of these conditions does not guarantee the appearance of FLHS [96,146]. Butler [151] suggested that excess fat in the liver arises mainly from increased lipogenesis rather than from dietary lipids. Although there has been no constant association with a particular type of diet, some studies have indicated that high energy diets, especially maize or wheat diets produce higher incidences of FLHS [146,152,153,154].​
Jensen et al. [155] also stated that the amount of fat deposited in the liver is influenced by the cereal used as the basis of the diet. For instance, with iso-caloric diets based on maize, wheat or barley, the incidence of subclinical FLHS and liver lipid concentration was observed to decrease in that order [153].​
Similarly, the inclusion of such ingredients as fermentation residues, wheat bran or alfalfa have been found to significantly depress liver lipid concentrations [156]. Olomu et al. [157] reported that the incidence of liver FLHS tends to increase with the amount of rapeseed meal in the diet due to the erucic acid or other toxic metabolites which can affect the strength of the connective tissue in the liver [158,159].​
Earlier finding by Hemsley [160] and Payne et al. [161] showed that the syndrome was due to biotin deficiency. Frigg [162] reported that very little of the biotin present in wheat, and some other cereals, is available to the chicken. Therefore, diets based on large proportions of these feedstuffs contain sub-optimal concentrations of available biotin and hence require to be supplemented.​
There is evidence that among the mycotoxins, aflatoxin can cause fatty livers in laying hens [163]. Other fungal metabolites are known to possess oestrogenic activity and it is possible that their presence may cause the occurrence of the FLHS. Dietary modification can be used to prevent or treat FLHS. Substituting carbohydrate with supplemental fat might be beneficial.
Hepatic steatosis prevalence in caged birds is believed to be associated with the lack of exercise combined with a high feed intake in this housing system [164,165,166,167]. Shini et al. [167] demonstrated that hens in cages had significantly higher body weights than barn and free-range systems birds. This presumably causes a positive energy balance induced from a lack of exercise due to restricted space in cages.​
 

M&M Ninja

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Oils is also partly due to cost.
Of course. This makes sense.
I also think pet store staff are often idiots.
I thought this very thing yesterday as I watched the store staff allow a bunch of handsy kids chase young birds around a tiny pen and force them to be collected. And you wonder why certain birds are bitey once they go home. Perhaps, because they have been conditioned to bite to get the message across that they are scared and don't want to do what you're asking.

I'm grateful my local store exists, and I'm happy to support them in various other ways. But I do not ask about diet or bird training.
 

Finchbreed

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Unfortunately too many pet store staff love birds - and know very very little about them.
Fortunately there is usually one or two who want to learn and will listen to advice.
 
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