What facts do we know about Hypersensitivity Pneumonitis?

[sunnysmom]

I am asking this question because I feel like there's a trend on the forum lately that something gets said as opinion by one person and then it gets repeated again and again as fact. There is definitely information out there that Macaws, particularly Blue and Golds, are at risk of Hypersensitivity Pneumonitis if housed with dusty birds. Dusty birds meaning Greys, Cockatoos and Cockatiels. Beyond that, what factual information is out there? I see more and more on the forum that no New World bird should ever be housed with an Old World bird and that no other birds should be housed with Greys, 'toos or 'tiels. Okay, what source actually says that? Or is that opinion? I'm asking that respectfully. Because I think we have to be careful what we say. I honestly always try to say things like "I would" or "I wouldn't", etc. As in it is how I feel or what I would do unless I KNOW what I am saying is factual. It is fine for someone to say "I would not have a Cockatoo and an Amazon together" for example. And it's understandable that someone would want to be cautious. But is there a source out there that says that? I consider @Hankmacaw the forum expert on this subject and maybe she has seen information/sources out there that I haven't. Because I have tried to look into it because I have dusty birds. And I would never foster a macaw because of that. But I think it would be beneficial if people had sources/information on the subject if they could be shared.

 

[Hankmacaw]

I always wonder about people when they learn about PHS and they immediately try to get around the facts. I always back my statements up with authoritative documentation (that any one who owns a computer can find on their own).

It isn't black and white New World/Old World. For example Amazons don't have a preening gland and produce some powder down and there are Old World Birds that are sensitive to powder down. One of those is the Brown Headed Parrot.

There is a plethora of information from veterinarians and researchers that is not deniable on this subject, so rather than argue on a forum or ask questions from someone you really don't know their expertise why don't you all who have question research it for yourself.

PS - I have always shared all of the information I have found and information gleaned from my very excellent vet.

 

[camelotshadow]

Don;t know if anyone has all the statistics & research but read enough birds die associated with it that it is wise to issue a warning on housing Birds with high susceptibility with dusty birds. Maybe not all birds are alike but at this point its better to be safe than sorry.

Certainly if you have a Too or African Grey or even a smaller tiel with a Blue & Gold Macaw, conure or pionus & maybe others then you have to look at your situation & do enough research & changes to afford safety to your flock.

Many new members & some bird parents are not aware of this.

Who knows maybe even grays can be sensitive to there own or toos dust? A hepa filter should be a must for all birds of the dust powder variety for everyone including their own own health.

So maybe a sticky in the health forum if there is not any as it is being seen more & more.

 

[Hankmacaw]

There is a sticky in the Health section of the list of forums.

Pulmonary Hypersensitivity Disease - Macaws and Conures

RESPIRATORY DISEASE IN SOUTH AMERICAN SPECIES ESPECIALLY MACAWS AND CONURES Pulmonary Hypersensitivity Syndrome Although good ventilation is necessary for any type of bird, it is especially critical for South American species. Blue and Gold Macaws, as well as Sun Conures seem especially...

forums.avianavenue.com

 

[Ripshod]

I get this. I understand totally where you're coming from and where you'd like this to go.
I'm know what I know by years of experience and research. I am also guilty of saying stuff is bad without showing where I get my information from. But I have learned very recently when researching a certain subject for quotes and links that sadly there is as much tripe out there as there is true scientific evidence. When an article is written by a qualified Avian Veterinarian readers tend to take that as gospel even if it is obviously wrong. As much as I hate to say it, more and more we're having to rely on anecdotal evidence rather than true science.

There is a sticky in the Health section of the list of forums.

Pulmonary Hypersensitivity Disease - Macaws and Conures

RESPIRATORY DISEASE IN SOUTH AMERICAN SPECIES ESPECIALLY MACAWS AND CONURES Pulmonary Hypersensitivity Syndrome Although good ventilation is necessary for any type of bird, it is especially critical for South American species. Blue and Gold Macaws, as well as Sun Conures seem especially...

forums.avianavenue.com

Is there any chance that one particular sticky can be moved or copied to the main healthy highway parent forum to make it more prominent. I didn't even know it existed until it was linked here.

 

[Ripshod]

One thing to add. When I first came to these forums I knew of BirdTricks but I had never heard of Pamela Clark. Who was I supposed to trust?
Of course with some experience and reading I came to know who to trust, but as a n00b I hadn't a clue.

 

[Sparkles99]

I find that the less common a pet is, the less money is invested in research & the more people have to rely on the experience of others, not just sound science.

 

[MiniMacaw]

I think it’s largely because owning parrots as pets is relatively new and their lives so long, that science hasn’t caught up yet. I think avian vets are who we should listen to when it comes to this issue.

It reminds me of an argument I got in recently with a relative who loves scentsy products. I declined to buy any for my home because I didn’t want to risk my birds health. But in searching the internet I found only anecdotal evidence to potential harm specific to scentsy. Even when asking my avian vet, there are no actual studies done to prove a point one way or the other. We just have to use common sense. Which is difficult when ten people are telling you that they have scented products and birds for ten years with no issues. Then they just scoff at the vets advice. So I agree we need some more concrete works written up. The fact that the best book on macaws was written in the 90s and is out of print speaks to that.

When I was growing up I kept my goldfish in a bowl on the kitchen table. Now, two decades later, science knows that goldfish need something like 30 gallons each. I think we just haven’t gotten there for avian care yet, but we will.

 

[camelotshadow]

Not many of us are vets here. We love birds & like to see them kept safely. We give our time & advice the best we can.

Rio wants some thing...Seems I am late to tending to his needs....

 

[Ripshod]

I think it’s largely because owning parrots as pets is relatively new and their lives so long, that science hasn’t caught up yet

I believe there's documented evidence of birds (specifically parrots) being kept as pets over 3000 years ago.
With dogs the science started long ago, because dogs were working animals and so many people depended on them.
Cats? I dunno!. Maybe the similar physiology helped them.
Parrots were just mysterious curiosities for a long time I suppose?

 

[Mizzely]

Links/PDFs

Lung and Airway Disorders of Pet Birds - Bird Owners - Merck Veterinary Manual

Learn about the veterinary topic of Lung and Airway Disorders of Pet Birds. Find specific details on this topic and related topics from the Merck Vet Manual.

www.merckvetmanual.com

Avian respiratory medicine (Proceedings)

Respiratory disease is relatively common in companion birds.

www.dvm360.com

 

[Feather]

I like to do my own research and am not one to take things I'm told at face value. Sure, while there is some, maybe there isn't a whole lot to find on avian Hypersensitivity Pneumonitis, but there's plenty of information on it for humans. For me, it tracks that if we're susceptible to developing this disease, a bird whose respiratory system is far more sensitive than ours would also be susceptible to it. We know scents, smoke, molds, other inhalants are bad for birds, so why is it a stretch to add dust to that list of dangers?

Even if it did all end up being nothing more than hearsay and paranoia - which I don't believe it is - I'd rather meticulously avoid housing dusty and non-dusty birds together and never know if it really is a risk across the board than find out years later that my actions killed one of my own.

Who knows maybe even grays can be sensitive to there own or toos dust? A hepa filter should be a must for all birds of the dust powder variety for everyone including their own own health.

I'm sure some might think I'm reaching here, but I personally do believe that dusty birds are susceptible to their own powder. I don't have anything to back this hunch up, except to posit that in the wild they would not be exposed to it anywhere near the degree as they are in an enclosed space such as our homes.

 

[Hankmacaw]

@Mizzely I really like this paper - good vets and very thorough. You a good researcher. I've saved it for reference and a thorough read. file:///C:/Users/buyer_thank_you/Downloads/RespiratoryDiseaseAAVGeriatric2011smallbook.pdfI

 

[Khizz]

Which is difficult when ten people are telling you that they have scented products and birds for ten years with no issues.

Some of these types of company (MLMs) often have reps who will lie to shift product, so there's a lot of sifting through the anecdotal "evidence" of those sales reps to get to the truth. And even then they won't want to hear it. So many will happily risk your birds' health if it makes a sale. I was part of one FB discussion where a rep from an essential oils company claimed that dabbing frankincense on your neck cures epileptic seizures - so no need for meds! Claims like that will get people killed.

Sorry - this wasn't directly related. I admit, I kind of took the whole PH thing at face value, as I don't plan on getting any other birds except possibly budgies in the future. But it's been insightful - especially for someone like me who didn't really question it to begin with. I'll have a read through some of @Mizzely 's links when I have time.

 

[sunnysmom]

I get this. I understand totally where you're coming from and where you'd like this to go.
I'm know what I know by years of experience and research. I am also guilty of saying stuff is bad without showing where I get my information from. But I have learned very recently when researching a certain subject for quotes and links that sadly there is as much tripe out there as there is true scientific evidence. When an article is written by a qualified Avian Veterinarian readers tend to take that as gospel even if it is obviously wrong. As much as I hate to say it, more and more we're having to rely on anecdotal evidence rather than true science.

Is there any chance that one particular sticky can be moved or copied to the main healthy highway parent forum to make it more prominent. I didn't even know it existed until it was linked here.

Thanks. And you're exactly right - there is good and bad info out there. And I didn't mean certainly that every time someone says anything they have to give a source. We all have gathered knowledge along the way that we share. I just feel like sometimes "group speak" takes over and that things get said again and again without a foundation. Does that make sense? I think Hypersensitiviy Pnuemontis is a serious subject that all parrot owners should be aware of and make informed decisions on what type of birds to keep together but I also don't want to unnecessarily scare people either. There is the factual evidence and then there are theories/opinions. I think the link that was posted says it well and I actually had missed that one before.

 

[sunnysmom]

I believe there's documented evidence of birds (specifically parrots) being kept as pets over 3000 years ago.
With dogs the science started long ago, because dogs were working animals and so many people depended on them.
Cats? I dunno!. Maybe the similar physiology helped them.
Parrots were just mysterious curiosities for a long time I suppose?

I think part of it too is back then people kept wild caught parrots. I don't think breeding parrots started until fairly recently- unlike dog breeding which has gone on for a long time.

 

[MnGuy]

I always wonder about people when they learn about PHS and they immediately try to get around the facts. I always back my statements up with authoritative documentation (that any one who owns a computer can find on their own).

It isn't black and white New World/Old World. For example Amazons don't have a preening gland and produce some powder down and there are Old World Birds that are sensitive to powder down. One of those is the Brown Headed Parrot.

There is a plethora of information from veterinarians and researchers that is not deniable on this subject, so rather than argue on a forum or ask questions from someone you really don't know their expertise why don't you all who have question research it for yourself.

PS - I have always shared all of the information I have found and information gleaned from my very excellent vet.

Which other Old World species are sensitive? Asking because I might add a second bird somewhere down the line and would only consider Old World species. I currently have one CAG.

Thank you.

 

[Mizzely]

Which other Old World species are sensitive? Asking because I might add a second bird somewhere down the line and would only consider Old World species. I currently have one CAG.

Thank you.

Poicephalus in general seem prone to respiratory problems, so in theory they could be affected by powder down birds.

 

[camelotshadow]

Until we get into detailed research into bird respiratory anatomy & real evidence for different species its safe to say that all birds have a delicate respiratory systems. Birds were never bred to exist in such a closed sometimes airtight dry spaces like our homes filled with dust & chemicals. Their habitat is the wide open skies, canopies & outdoor fields etc. So it would be wise to protect all birds even those from its own dust.

Unless there are species related studies of respiratory systems its best we just keep our birds away from things that can cause health concern. Likely there will never be research funded to study it at the lab level & would we want that?
Most of the info is obtained in necropsies so is not a controlled lab situation. One can only speculate or take the word of the bird owner & try to draw a conclusion from a particular situation. We can try to learn from this as much as we can but is it the entire picture NO. Its all we have & I think we have to take it seriously even though maybe not every species may be as susceptible just like not all of us have asthma & allergies but we all could benefit from clean air.

We try to scare as you never know what is a tolerable level & some people can have no affect for some reason & allow others to think its ok to house a bird with dust, incense & candles. Just because they got lucky does not mean everyone will have the same experience. They might have a large house with alot of airflow or the product was somewhat not as dangerous as could be but would we want someone to take a chance? No.

Citing articles is fine & most of us take the time to educate but we have lives & birds too so when we voice an educated opinion then it sort of grieves me to have to back & forth infinitum upon every issue.

This is a free website & most of us try to educate & offer information as much as we can but its not a doctoral thesis that we have to prove beyond a shadow of doubt. No one not even vets are 100% sure of the exact biological causes or tolerable limits but it should be enough to just say its a danger & we should try our best to keep the air in our homes as safe as we can.


This is more detailed & I'll comment on it perhaps when I finish reading it as its complicated.

https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/pdf/10.1289/ehp.97105188

 

[Sparkles99]

Ripshod, I think you've a good point about the similar physiology of cats & subsequent research. Cats are the medical model for humans.