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Pictures Undigested food in poop - update

Fuzzy

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Ollie has had undigested food in his poop for a few months now. The vet sent away fecal material for testing. Results were inconclusive/nothing abnormal. He seemed to get a little better. Then recently there was more undigested material. Ollie seemed always hungry and tired. He was doing the rounds, stealing everybirdie's millet spray. Here he is in Kobe's cage:



This was Ollie's poop straight after eating the millet, which shocked me:



I called the vet out again and suggested we try him on a course of broad spectrum antibiotics since it had been going on so long. She agreed. So he's on a 7 day course of Baytril. This is day 4 and his poops are looking markedly better:



I have been terrified for months that it could be Avian Bornavirus Ganglioneuritis, since he has also been vomiting on and off. Even though the vet is lovely and has an interest in birds, there are no avian vets here so I haven't had the confidence to ask for a blood test - apparently they take blood from the wing which is slow and painful. So I am hugely relieved the Baytril seems to be working... fingers crossed.
 

Clueless

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Prayers up.
 

Shezbug

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Best wishes for continued recovery results :)
 

Tiel Feathers

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Wow, that is a lot of undigested food. :( I hope that it’s just a bacterial infection and the meds do the trick!:fingerscrossed:
 

Toy

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Sorry to hear your bird is sick. This doesn't sound good. Symptoms are possibly ABV/PDD or kidney disease. Undigested food in poop, fatigue, hungry all the time, very wet poops & vomiting. I'd guess your birds keel bone is knife sharp, sticking out. Chest muscle loss is also a symptom. Antibiotics are a short term treatment & are hard on the kidneys, as many meds are. If the kidneys are taxed it's a good assumption the liver is too.

I'm dealing with kidney disease in my macaw right now. We did a round of antibiotics & she got better, but symptoms quickly returned. We also tried Flax seed/corn oil 20ml daily for a macaw (1 part flax seed oil to 4 parts corn oil) in her food, but it made her vomit a lot. So the vet suggested Nutriberries, as they contain flax seed & added ingredients.

Vets will also suggest a low protein diet, but it can't be too low as they can starve. If it's kidney disease there is no cure, but it can be maintained with diet changes. If vomiting continues the vet can subscribe a nausea med that may help. Offer lots of fresh veggies, some pellets, some seed, a little fruit. Limit high protein foods like eggs, meat, nuts. Avoid all dairy, as they can't digest it. Keep the water dish changed & full, as they need to drink a lot to keep from getting dehydrated.

I'd suggest an Avian form of Milk Thistle & Dandelion root to help support the liver. It comes in liquid or powder. If you get the liquid form it must be "alcohol free". The dose will be on the container. Not sure what you have available there, but here in the USA we have several places we can order it from made just for parrots.

This is a list of vets I was able to find on the Channel-Islands: Veterinary Practices in Channel-Islands - Find A Vet

I'd suggest you call around & find one that has treated birds with these symptoms. When you call suggest your bird may have kidney disease or ABV. Also taking blood from their wing is not that painful. Blood tests are required to find out the cause of the illness so the proper treatment can be administered. They can also take blood from the juggler vein in the neck.

Best wishes.
 

ncGreyBirdLady

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1576338017221.png :hug8: :hug8: :hug8:
 

Hankmacaw

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@Toy recommendations are all good, but I'd like to add one more suggestion. Celebrex and Onsior are the chosen treatments (does not cure) for PDD. There are risks for kidney compromise, but the risk is small.

My Jasper (27 yo GW macaw) exhibited small amounts of undigested food twice in her visits to the vet. She goes once every quarter due to numerous other health issues, but this development gave both my vet and I reason for concern. We discussed having her tested for the ABV virus and decided not to, because there would really be nothing to do about it and her life span is limited anyway. She also has severe arthritis in her feet and legs, so the Dr. changed her Metacam out with Celebrex. It has done a great job (along with Gabapentin) for her arthritis and she has not had any evidence of undigested food for the last two years. Onsior has similar effects as Celebrex, but it is a once every 10 day injection.

Jasper has been on the Celebrex for four/five years now and her CBC and Chem Panel come back perfect every six months.
 

JoJo&Loki

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Poor Ollie :( I really hope the antibiotics continue to help and he has a smooth recovery. Prayers up that it isn’t anything permanent:heart:
 

Toy

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@Toy recommendations are all good, but I'd like to add one more suggestion. Celebrex and Onsior are the chosen treatments (does not cure) for PDD. There are risks for kidney compromise, but the risk is small.

My Jasper (27 yo GW macaw) exhibited small amounts of undigested food twice in her visits to the vet. She goes once every quarter due to numerous other health issues, but this development gave both my vet and I reason for concern. We discussed having her tested for the ABV virus and decided not to, because there would really be nothing to do about it and her life span is limited anyway. She also has severe arthritis in her feet and legs, so the Dr. changed her Metacam out with Celebrex. It has done a great job (along with Gabapentin) for her arthritis and she has not had any evidence of undigested food for the last two years. Onsior has similar effects as Celebrex, but it is a once every 10 day injection.

Jasper has been on the Celebrex for four/five years now and her CBC and Chem Panel come back perfect every six months.
Thanks for adding this. 27 & severe arthritis. Dang!

My B&G (soon to be 21) had very wet poops, vomiting, lack of appetite, lost weight/chest muscle & had fatigue. She has shown no sign of pain. Otherwise she is normal. My vet doesn't want to use meds yet. We're trying to get things under control via diet changes. Since some diet change & taking her off the flax seed/corn oil no more vomiting. She's is back to eating normal, jabbering, playing some, wandering into the kitchen & living room the house. She still naps during the day, but not all day like before. The stinker just horked up food on my foot. Yuck! It's breeding season, as I'm sure you know. I was standing at the stove making fudge & felt something warm on my foot. EWWW.

I asked about testing for ABV/PDD & my vet doesn't feel like she has it. She feels this is all kidney disease. Either way neither has a cure or meds that will make a lot of difference without side effects. I printed out info from the 2 ABCV's in Ohio that have done extensive studies on ABV/PDD & gave it to my vet with the list of meds & supplements they suggest using, should it come to that. My vet is an exotic vet. I have no ABCV here.
 

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Kidney diseases, for the most part, cannot be cured. If it is an infection in the kidneys, that can be cured and there may not be permanent damage. I'm a risk taker (LOL much more than my vet, that I adore). BTW he is not even a Certified Avian Vet (long story, but a big time buddy system in AZ on the veterinarian board screwed him around big time). I'll bet that those creeps are chewing on their feet about him being one of the most respected and well like vets in the US now. If it were my bird - and it isn't - I would ask for a biopsy of her kidney. That is the fastest and most determinative way to find out everything about the kidney. It also comes with a lot of risk.

Have you given her Red Palm Oil and DMG - both have made a big difference with my very ill Jasper. Her major issue (among many) is congestive heart failure and severe atherosclerosis. She has been very ill since the age of 6 1/2.
 

enigma731

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Antibiotics are curative (not just a short-term fix) if this is due to a bacterial imbalance/infection. Considering that further workup is fairly invasive, it makes sense to me to treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic first and see what happens. If it solves the problem, that's great.

I think you've gotten really good recommendations for next steps if the Baytril doesn't work. For now, I'd be reluctant to change anything else because if you throw in too many variables at once, you won't know which thing helped.
 

Fuzzy

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Thanks so much everyone for your well wishes and advice. :hug8: Ollie's weight is stable and has been for the last year which is something positive.

I'm so sorry about your Macaw, @Toy. I add freshly ground flaxseed to their sprouts every morning for the anti-inflammatory Omega 3. I try to keep protein on the lower side as I know it isn't good for the liver. Ollie has a mainly fresh diet - he doesn't usually eat seed or pellets even though they are on offer. I have been giving him alcohol free Milk Thistle tincture every other day (swapping with DMG or liquid vitamins), but perhaps I should up that to every evening. He was getting probiotics and prebiotics in his water, but I have stopped for the duration he's on the Baytril. Will re start when he's finished the course. Was nebulizing with F10 but decided to stop whilst he's on the Baytril.

That's positive to hear that Jasper is doing well, @Hankmacaw. Thank you for all the drug info.

Thanks for the vet list, @Toy. I rang Durrell Zoo some months ago to ask which vets they use for their birds, but they have their own in-house. They recommended the vet I already use - "he is the bird man" they said. A few people have recommended him now.

Glad you said that, @enigma731. It gives me hope.... hoping the antibiotics will knock this thing on the head and that will be the end of it. I am hugely grateful for all the info about what I can do next if that isn't the case. I have been worried sick for so long and have been trying everything within my power to help him holistically/naturally. Even got someone to send multiple sessions of distant Reiki for him.
 
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rockoko

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Wishing healing thoughts for Ollie! :hug4:
 

Toy

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Kidney diseases, for the most part, cannot be cured. If it is an infection in the kidneys, that can be cured and there may not be permanent damage. I'm a risk taker (LOL much more than my vet, that I adore). BTW he is not even a Certified Avian Vet (long story, but a big time buddy system in AZ on the veterinarian board screwed him around big time). I'll bet that those creeps are chewing on their feet about him being one of the most respected and well like vets in the US now. If it were my bird - and it isn't - I would ask for a biopsy of her kidney. That is the fastest and most determinative way to find out everything about the kidney. It also comes with a lot of risk.

Have you given her Red Palm Oil and DMG - both have made a big difference with my very ill Jasper. Her major issue (among many) is congestive heart failure and severe atherosclerosis. She has been very ill since the age of 6 1/2.
Awww so sorry your bird has been so ill from such a young age.

I was hoping JaJaBinks was just an infection too, but alas it isn't. The so called "go to avian vet" I first took her to was afraid to even do a hands on exam. In my opinion an avian vet that is afraid of a parrot isn't worth my time. The vet she sees now is a woman & really feels her all over, checks in her mouth, asks me tons of questions, etc.. She wanted me to try holistic & diet change first, then meds if needed, since she had no infection. Blood tests point to kidney disease.

I am using a little Red Palm oil, but not daily, as anything oily seems to make her vomit. Now my CAG would eat it out of the jar, she loves the stuff, LOL. I haven't tried DMG yet. Can you recommend a brand & dose?

Sorry to hijack the OP thread.
 

enigma731

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@Toy How did your vet rule out infection? I'd be very surprised if antibiotics made even a short-term difference if there really wasn't one.
 

Hankmacaw

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Toy

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@Toy How did your vet rule out infection? I'd be very surprised if antibiotics made even a short-term difference if there really wasn't one.
Both vets I took her too ran tests. A CBC panel will show if there is infection. 1st vet put her on an antibiotic & Meloxicam right away, before the test results were back. He assumed she had PDD with no exam or tests, only by symptoms of very wet poops, lack of appetite, vomiting, sleeping a lot, not vocalizing or playing. He was afraid of her & didn't even want to do a hands on exam or run tests. I had to insist he do blood tests. We wrapped her in a towel & a tech & I held her while he drew the blood. She was & still is in perfect feather. He was wrong. Perhaps the Meloxicam helped some with inflammation.

2nd vet said if tests showed infection then she'd call in a script for antibiotics, but wouldn't just put her on one, as they are hard on the kidneys. 2nd vet compared 1st vets tests, along with a 2nd round of tests & x-rays (all tho they were a bit fuzzy as they couldn't get her to quit kicking). Vet said it was Kidney & that she had no signs of PDD. We recently ran a 3rd round of tests. All 3 rounds of tests indicate it's Kidney Disease.

We put her on a 12 week low protein diet (no nuts, eggs, or other foods high in protein), along with Milk Thistle/Dandelion Root, Flax seed oil/corn oil. Had to take her off the flax seed oil/corn oil, as it made her vomit a lot. She is better. Her poops are not nearly as wet as before (many closer to or are normal) & she is eating normal, not sleeping all day like before, she is vocalizing & playing. My vet wants to try holistic & diet & only do meds if she gets worse, as they are all hard on the kidneys. She goes back in 3-4 months for a re-check.
 

Toy

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@Toy I use Nutiva Robot Check now since AviGlo is no longer available.

Here is an article by Dr. Harrison about Red Palm Oil in general (he no longer sells his Sushine Factor); SUNSHINE FACTOR – Here are the facts | Harrison's Bird Foods
Please read - there are dozens of inaccurate rumors about RPO.

Here is an article by Dr. Wissman about DMG; Exotic Pet Veterinarian
Thanks for the info. I have the Nutiva Red Palm oil.

I will look into the DMG liquid. What dose do you give your macaw?
 

enigma731

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I'm glad she's improving. The test results you posted previously did not have a valid white blood cell count, so I'm not sure how a vet could have concluded from that that there was no infection. I'm glad it sounds like there were more recent results than that.
 
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