TO CLIP? -- Flightless bird. Controversy. Honest feedback. Advice. Practicality.

[FeatheredM]

It is by no means a myth. Were the poeple who told you trustworthy bird owners?

 

[erineliot]

Unfortunately Henri is unlikely to be a good candidate for free-flight. If you want to do free-flight with a bird, it's crucial that that bird has excellent flight skills and the neurological development to support these. Flight takes advanced coordination, requires intense visual processing to make sense of everything they see, and requires fast decision-making if the bird encounters something unexpected.

Fully Flighted Birds | The Aviator Harness

At the first hint of danger a bird naturally takes to flight. During the hundreds of defensive short flights that flighted birds take each day, they are quickly assessing potential dangers and deciding if they need to keep flying. These short flights require immediate and appropriate decision-making

www.aviatorharness.com

This really has to be developed from birth. A good candidate for free flight must absolutely trust her wings. She needs to be able to make quick turns, hover, and make lightning fast decisions while in flight, and never fear that her wings may betray her.

I personally don't free fly my parrots. I'd love to, but we have raptors like sparrowhawks and buzzards which would easily take a 250g bird. My girls are smaller than a pigeon so are suitable prey for them. Most good candidates for free flight are larger birds, like macaws or cockatoos, I am thinking about smuggling them into work so I can let them fly in a lecture hall though

A lecture hall?! What do you teach?!

I didn't know the details in how you described everything, but those are the EXACT reasons I haven't thought it'd be practical ever free fly Henri. Then I'd tell ourselves that maybe whenever many years pass and it's an appropriate time to finally raise a parrot from hatch, then we'll consider teaching it to free-flight, granted I know at that point how to do that yet, even that's unlikely. But it also amounts to your second point. We have a LOT of hawks, eagles, buzzards, and other predatory species here. We even have at least one bald eagle! I just would never feel safe where I am and where we're at to ever consider personally releasing my bird under the circumstances.

But I'd still love to hear about others' experiences just for playful interest.

 

[Zara]

However, I spoke with my vet and a few others and they all laughed and said it was a myth.

Maybe look for a new vet?
It is disheartening to read your vet laughed at your question, they should be encouraging question asking.

 

[Destiny]

This is entirely anecdotely, but when my mom was younger, a barn cat bit her on the hand. Nice deep puncture wound.

She put pressure on it and the bleeding stopped, but she noticed the area around the wound was red and enflammed. It felt warmer than the surrounding skin. She was debating if she needed to go to the ER to have it looked at when she noticed a faint red line radiating up her arm from the bite's location. It had been less than an hour since she was bitten by the cat. She headed off the doctor immediately, keeping an eye on that red line. It got noticeably darker and longer while she waited to be seen, the inflammation slowly creeping up her arm toward her heart. They ended up putting her on IV antibiotics for a while to kill whatever nastiness that cat bite gave her. She has never experienced anything like that before. The speed of the infection's spread was just ridiculous.

Needless to say, my mom takes cat bites very seriously and I have no problem believing that a single non-fatal puncture could kill a parrot.

 

[erineliot]

This is entirely anecdotely, but when my mom was younger, a barn cat bit her on the hand. Nice deep puncture wound.

She put pressure on it and the bleeding stopped, but she noticed the area around the wound was red and enflammed. It felt warmer than the surrounding skin. She was debating if she needed to go to the ER to have it looked at when she noticed a faint red line radiating up her arm from the bite's location. It had been less than an hour since she was bitten by the cat. She headed off the doctor immediately, keeping an eye on that red line. It got noticeably darker and longer while she waited to be seen, the inflammation slowly creeping up her arm toward her heart. They ended up putting her on IV antibiotics for a while to kill whatever nastiness that cat bite gave her. She has never experienced anything like that before. The speed of the infection's spread was just ridiculous.

Needless to say, my mom takes cat bites very seriously and I have no problem believing that a single non-fatal puncture could kill a parrot.

Very good perspective! And scary.

 

[sootling]

Very good perspective! And scary.

And a very good reason not to listen to that vet.

 

[erineliot]

And a very good reason not to listen to that vet.

Haha, yes, Well, wait, to my vet? The one that told me it wasn't a concern? Or a different one?

And your signature is so cute!

 

[sootling]

Haha, yes, Well, wait, to my vet? The one that told me it wasn't a concern? Or a different one?

And your signature is so cute!

To the one that told you it wasn't a concern.

Thanks for the compliment, I drew the sig myself!

 

[Destiny]

To the one that told you it wasn't a concern.

Thanks for the compliment, I drew the sig myself!

To be fair to that vet, I've also suffered many cat bites over the years, from kittens to adult cats that got a little to frisky and I never experienced the severity of infection that my mom did from her cat bite. So I think it is safe to say that not ALL cat bites are guaranteed to be that bad. It depends on the cat and what kind of bacteria they have in their mouth. Hunting cats, like feral barn cats are probably more likely to have the scary stuff, since they are out there killing and eating small animals. Those cats also happen to be the ones that are most likely to go after small birds and deal damage. It is possible that the vet had never seen "toxic cat bites" in his or her practice, so they assumed that it was an unlikely outcome. Or they were taught that it was an exaggeration by whomever trained them and haven't seen anything to prove that belief wrong yet. Vets are just people and they don't know or see everything, even if they've been practicing for many years and are very knowledgeable on other subjects.

As with any kind of health care, it is important to find a doctor that you can trust, but don't trust blindly. Ask questions and get a second opinion if it feels wrong or doesn't match your own knowledge or experience. A good doctor will be able to explain themselves clearly and provide some evidence to support their recommendations. I work in healthcare and I always encourage patient advocacy and being your own advocate when possible - doctors are people and they are not infallible. They usually know what they are doing and are trying their best to help you. But if something doesn't feel right, double-check!

...

I'd also add that when it comes to serious medical questions, a medical doctor's professional opinion should carry more weight than a random voice on the internet.

Just keep in mind that not all vets are well-trained when it comes to parrots and other exotics. It is a niche area of veterinary medicine, so the average non-avian veterinarian may not be able to offer solid professional advice regarding exotic pet issues.

 

[sootling]

To be fair to that vet, I've also suffered many cat bites over the years, from kittens to adult cats that got a little to frisky and I never experienced the severity of infection that my mom did from her cat bite. So I think it is safe to say that not ALL cat bites are guaranteed to be that bad. It depends on the cat and what kind of bacteria they have in their mouth. Hunting cats, like feral barn cats are probably more likely to have the scary stuff, since they are out there killing and eating small animals. Those cats also happen to be the ones that are most likely to go after small birds and deal damage. It is possible that the vet had never seen "toxic cat bites" in his or her practice, so they assumed that it was an unlikely outcome. Or they were taught that it was an exaggeration by whomever trained them and haven't seen anything to prove that belief wrong yet. Vets are just people and they don't know or see everything, even if they've been practicing for many years and are very knowledgeable on other subjects.

As with any kind of health care, it is important to find a doctor that you can trust, but don't trust blindly. Ask questions and get a second opinion if it feels wrong or doesn't match your own knowledge or experience. A good doctor will be able to explain themselves clearly and provide some evidence to support their recommendations. I work in healthcare and I always encourage patient advocacy and being your own advocate when possible - doctors are people and they are not infallible. They usually know what they are doing and are trying their best to help you. But if something doesn't feel right, double-check!

...

I'd also add that when it comes to serious medical questions, a medical doctor's professional opinion should carry more weight than a random voice on the internet.

Just keep in mind that not all vets are well-trained when it comes to parrots and other exotics. It is a niche area of veterinary medicine, so the average non-avian veterinarian may not be able to offer solid professional advice regarding exotic pet issues.

Well, that's true for many humans, heck I've gotten bitten and been fine, but birds are sooooo delicate and the vet should've known better.

 

[erineliot]

Well, that's true for many humans, heck I've gotten bitten and been fine, but birds are sooooo delicate and the vet should've known better.

I love him, too! ...My vet. He's wonderful. He is always willing to help, he's passionate about research and learning new things. He owns and has trained his falcon to successfully hunt, he ALWAYS tells me when he doesn't have enough expertise on a subject and always finds me someone else. And lastly, he gave me Henri—just gave her to me, said she'd be happier. My vet had had her for about two years at the time as the office pet. He inherited her from a woman who was related to the man who owned Henri after he passed away. I don't know how long she had her. My vet said that all he was told was that she grew up in an ill-equipped cage in a garage. I don't know if that was just during the stay with the woman or if it was lifelong. However, due to her atrophy, low coordination, inability to control flight, and the fact she was living on all half-inch rods and literally unable to stand whatsoever on any of the new, properly sized perches I sourced for her, it leads me to imagine it was always a bad situation.

I don't think any of that was necessary to know! Haha, just thought I'd share. It baffles me he wasn't aware or of the belief in what I assumed was common knowledge. He was very kind about clarifying my "myth." Again, he's wonderful—but as a person and domestic vet. He's told me time after time that he doesn't know as much as an avian vet. But he's "saved her life" three times that I'm aware of already, especially when she went through her since zinc toxicity last fall. CLOSE call. She should be up for more x-rays soon. But he helped me turn probably $7,000 in fees into five just out of sheer kindness and relation to Henri.

I mean, he has a bird, the falcon, that lives outdoors... where cats are, so how couldn't he right in whatever he says, right?! But looking back, I now think I was just so badly hoping what he believed was true and immediately believed it. I think I always knew it wasn't true.

Unfortunate, but vital to know.

 

[erineliot]

To be fair to that vet, I've also suffered many cat bites over the years, from kittens to adult cats that got a little to frisky and I never experienced the severity of infection that my mom did from her cat bite. So I think it is safe to say that not ALL cat bites are guaranteed to be that bad. It depends on the cat and what kind of bacteria they have in their mouth. Hunting cats, like feral barn cats are probably more likely to have the scary stuff, since they are out there killing and eating small animals. Those cats also happen to be the ones that are most likely to go after small birds and deal damage. It is possible that the vet had never seen "toxic cat bites" in his or her practice, so they assumed that it was an unlikely outcome. Or they were taught that it was an exaggeration by whomever trained them and haven't seen anything to prove that belief wrong yet. Vets are just people and they don't know or see everything, even if they've been practicing for many years and are very knowledgeable on other subjects.

As with any kind of health care, it is important to find a doctor that you can trust, but don't trust blindly. Ask questions and get a second opinion if it feels wrong or doesn't match your own knowledge or experience. A good doctor will be able to explain themselves clearly and provide some evidence to support their recommendations. I work in healthcare and I always encourage patient advocacy and being your own advocate when possible - doctors are people and they are not infallible. They usually know what they are doing and are trying their best to help you. But if something doesn't feel right, double-check!

...

I'd also add that when it comes to serious medical questions, a medical doctor's professional opinion should carry more weight than a random voice on the internet.

Just keep in mind that not all vets are well-trained when it comes to parrots and other exotics. It is a niche area of veterinary medicine, so the average non-avian veterinarian may not be able to offer solid professional advice regarding exotic pet issues.

Too many good points! I loved that you advocated on his behalf. Very honest approach.

I've never received a cat bite that badly before either! However, when I worked in a grocery store a while back, I was bagging a customer's beer bottles. One of the edges on the caps scraped my knuckle and the exact thing happed, quickly! Red traveling line, terrible pain. Stayed like that for days. It was more insane than anything else.

As for finding health care I trust, I 100% trust him... as a person. He's said himself that he's not an avian vet but just has a strong interest in avian species. But the number one locally recommended avian vet in my area is cold! He speaks to me and my wife like we are stupid, and he explains very little very quickly. I didn't care about his reputation, I just didn't trust him. I fear his reputation is more due to the scarcity of local avian vets than due to proficiency or passion. Henri does have a vet at our state college, LSU. This would be the number one recommended place in the state to take her according to most vets. But I didn't care for the vet there either! He told me no toys other than wood and to throw them out immediately after splintering. To me, that's like saying she gets only one bite of ONE food source before I toss it out. I don't know. But the vet techs and students at LSU did blow me away. But who's calling the shots? So it's scary. And then all the other vets in the area that were once recommended have collectively stopped accepting avian patients. So sad and nerve-wracking. I hate also not having a 24-hour vet locally. Thankfully they go to sleep early and don't get into that much trouble but during the day. Actually, I live in Lafayette, LA. Is anyone from near the area that could recommend a vet I maybe haven't discovered yet?

Okay, one last thing. I have been posting mostly incorrectly since I joined when it comes to new posts and questions. I've been posting too much. It was suggested I start a page all for Henri where I ask ALL of my questions on say, behavior, under that one thread. Does that male sense? I'm asking because I have more questions arising by the hour and I want to make sure I post properly. But what confuses me is if I start a thread outlining all of her behavioral issues, what about when I have a new behavior question? I post it on that same thread I imagine. But then how does it get the recognition on AA to be seen as a recent, new question?

Thank you all so much.

 

[erineliot]

To the one that told you it wasn't a concern.

Thanks for the compliment, I drew the sig myself!

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, haha.

And I figured! It's inspiring! I want to do one, too!

 

[Laurie]

Clipping the bird too lightly might mean they can still fly upward by exerting extra effort, so they are still able to get into the same trouble as a flighted bird. Clipping the bird to heavily means they cannot slow their descent safely and might hurt themself if they are startled into flight. The "perfect clip" would allow the bird to glide and land safely from a height but not allow the bird to produce enough upward lift for true flight. Unfortunately, this perfect clip is pretty unattainable.

Yes and as you alluded, the perfect clip indoors can lead to flying outdoors with the wind beneath their wings.

 

[Destiny]

Okay, one last thing. I have been posting mostly incorrectly since I joined when it comes to new posts and questions. I've been posting too much. It was suggested I start a page all for Henri where I ask ALL of my questions on say, behavior, under that one thread. Does that male sense? I'm asking because I have more questions arising by the hour and I want to make sure I post properly. But what confuses me is if I start a thread outlining all of her behavioral issues, what about when I have a new behavior question? I post it on that same thread I imagine. But then how does it get the recognition on AA to be seen as a recent, new question?

Thank you all so much.

If I have a lot of questions about one situation or one particular bird, I would make a single post in the forum that seems most appropriate to my primary concern and include all related questions after explaining the situation as best I can.

I avoid making the same post in multiple places (double-posting) or making a bunch of related questions in separate posts (spamming). This keeps things more or less in the same place and saves time repeating myself or describing the same thing over and over.

Later on, if I have a question or update about my bird or situation, I might post back to the same thread OR start a new thread. Depends on the situation or question.

If it is not that related or if I have a lot of new info to share, I am more likely to start a new thread. If it is closely related to one of my past threads, I tend to post back to the original, so people who are alrwady familar with the situation can help.

These are not hard and fast rules. Just general guidelines for polite forum use.

For example, I have one very long thread where I post pictures and updates about my outdoor aviary. If I want to share photos, talk about the birds or describe changes to the aviary, I will usually use this thread. But when my button quail started nest, I started a separate thread to talk about that and share what happened, since I wanted to give the quail more attention and let that be a separate thing from my main aviary thread. And if I had a question about food or toys for my aviary birds or a health question, I would probably make a separate thread, rather than add a new question to a long thread where it would just get totally buried and missed by a lot of people. People who answer questions on a thread or choose to follow it will be notified of additional posts on that thread, so they are less likely to miss a new question, but if someone is late to the party, they are unlikely to want to read through five whole pages to reach that question at the very end, so you could miss important feedback.

 

[flyzipper]

Are there any exercises that can be done with her to help her exercise? This is one of my main questions for today.

Apparently cycling is an option...
http://instagr.am/p/CaeEms3BRrl/

 

[FeatheredM]

Most halarious thing ever! I need to watch it once a day now, book marking this page!!!!!

 

[erineliot]

Yes and as you alluded, the perfect clip indoors can lead to flying outdoors with the wind beneath their wings.

Funny, I can't figure out reading this whether it's my hope or my fret that my vet has mastered the "perfect clip."

 

[erineliot]

Apparently cycling is an option...
http://instagr.am/p/CaeEms3BRrl/

Okay, thank you. I didn't know they could do that. I just went and ordered one off Amazon. Should be here in two days. Prime! It had a hamster in the photo, but I measured and it should be a good size, definitely not a size for a hamster. But they unfortunately only had pink; I wanted green. Seems like for $58 I could choose a different color! Oh, well. Henri will look cute on a pink bicycle nonetheless.

 

[erineliot]

If I have a lot of questions about one situation or one particular bird, I would make a single post in the forum that seems most appropriate to my primary concern and include all related questions after explaining the situation as best I can.

I avoid making the same post in multiple places (double-posting) or making a bunch of related questions in separate posts (spamming). This keeps things more or less in the same place and saves time repeating myself or describing the same thing over and over.

Later on, if I have a question or update about my bird or situation, I might post back to the same thread OR start a new thread. Depends on the situation or question.

If it is not that related or if I have a lot of new info to share, I am more likely to start a new thread. If it is closely related to one of my past threads, I tend to post back to the original, so people who are alrwady familar with the situation can help.

These are not hard and fast rules. Just general guidelines for polite forum use.

For example, I have one very long thread where I post pictures and updates about my outdoor aviary. If I want to share photos, talk about the birds or describe changes to the aviary, I will usually use this thread. But when my button quail started nest, I started a separate thread to talk about that and share what happened, since I wanted to give the quail more attention and let that be a separate thing from my main aviary thread. And if I had a question about food or toys for my aviary birds or a health question, I would probably make a separate thread, rather than add a new question to a long thread where it would just get totally buried and missed by a lot of people. People who answer questions on a thread or choose to follow it will be notified of additional posts on that thread, so they are less likely to miss a new question, but if someone is late to the party, they are unlikely to want to read through five whole pages to reach that question at the very end, so you could miss important feedback.

You explained everything very well. Thank you!

Nevertheless, I must know... Where can I follow your aviary post updates?! I traveled to your profile in attempt to find the thread, but there were so many postings! I ask because my wife has been dreaming of building Henri an outdoor aviary months before we got her, haha. She has so many ideas, and yet I wouldn't know where to begin!