The nest box is in!!

[Birdlover]

Okay lets all just take a deep breath...

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and its good that we can share opinions, it is how we learn. Lets not turn this into personal attacks over differing opinions, okay? People are entitled to their own beliefs (breeding vs not breeding, etc) so please lets be respectful of that.

 

[Allessa]

I agree we all have our opinions, but theres no reason to bash on me about it and say im breeding my birds "prematurely". Theres many people out there that do this blindly but i HAVE done this before. If for some reason the parents do reject the babies i can back them up and take care of them. Im not just doing it because i "can". I already have GREAT homes lined up for the babies. You may not agree but its an opinion, not a fact.

I never meant to start any trouble with this thread

 

[Beatriz Cazeneuve]

I agree we all have our opinions, but theres no reason to bash on me about it and say im breeding my birds "prematurely". Theres many people out there that do this blindly but i HAVE done this before. If for some reason the parents do reject the babies i can back them up and take care of them. Im not just doing it because i "can". I already have GREAT homes lined up for the babies. You may not agree but its an opinion, not a fact.

I never meant to start any trouble with this thread

No, I am sorry but you are incorrect. This is not my personal opinion, it's a scientific fact. Please do some in-depth research of your own about photoperiodism, birds biorhythms, the avian endocrine and reproductive system and you will see that I am not giving you incorrect information. The birds are yours to do what you want with them and the decision is ultimately yours but, at the very least, inform yourself before you make it.

 

[Beatriz Cazeneuve]

you know you did this same crud on the other forum Stop bashing people If our birds breed They breed , step down off your high horse and just zip it

birds WILL MATE EVEN WHEN GIVEN NOTHING TO MAKE A NEST OUT OF so it happens lay off stop degrading people because we allow our birds to MATE WHEN THEY CHOOSE TO

I am not 'degrading' anybody and I will thank you to be civil when you address me.

You are misinformed and fighting a losing battle because your arguments are not based on scientific facts. Birds will NOT mate or nest when they choose, only people do that, not animals. The way it works with birds is the following: their pineal gland reacts to the length of day by producing a larger or lesser amount of melatonin, this difference, in turn, stimulates (or not) their hypothalamus into secreting GnRH, a hormone that makes the anterior pituitary gland secrete two gonadotropin hormones (FHS and LS) which, in turn, stimulate the gonads (sexual organs) into growing (they are small and dormant during the 'preparation season' -aka as winter months or off-season) so the testes produce sperm and the ovary ovulates. And that, my dear, and not choice is what makes them want to mate and lay. People produce sexual hormones all the time but not birds. In nature, the cycles are kept according to the seasons by environmental triggers: photoperiodism, availability of rich food and, for tropical species, rainfall but in captivity the natural triggers don't work because we feed them rich food all year round and keep them protected from the elements so the ONLIEST breeding trigger we can really control is photoperiodism. If you allow birds to follow the natural seasons they will breed when they are supposed to: spring and early summer. If, on the other hand, you give them long days all year round, you will have birds whose endocrine system is out of whack and produces sexual hormones all year round. This and nothing else is what makes them breed off-season.

 

[Beatriz Cazeneuve]

I did a search on these subjects online. Though I found a few short blurbs about it, I was surprised there wasn't anything in depth. Do you recommend any particular books or journals that address this?

I know that Jani is a very responsible bird owner, and hope the babies bring much joy to her after the tough year she's had.

Actually, there are lots and lots of sources of information on the net. Here are some of the links I keep as reference:

Avian Reproduction

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/wildlife_damage/nwrc/publications/06pubs/yoder061.pdf

Photoperiodic Regulation of Type 2 Deiodinase Gene in Djungarian Hamster: Possible Homologies between Avian and Mammalian Photoperiodic Regulation of Reproduction -- Watanabe et al. 145 (4): 1546 -- Endocrinology

Avian reproductive endocrinology. [Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 1991] - PubMed result

Birds & Lights

Photoperiodism in Birds

I can give you more, if you are interested.

 

[Thugluvgrl187]

Thanks for the links.

 

[JLcribber]

Sorry ATV but I agree with Bea. Her facts are correct.

Because I live so far north there is a huge difference in the amount of daylight from season to season. In the summers we get over 18 hours of daylight. I keep them to 12 hours artificially to counteract some of that because they need their sleep. Winters we get as little as 8 hours of daylight. That is when I let the natural dusk and dawn period do it's thing. My birds have one full blown hormonal period in the spring and sometimes, not always, they have a light one in the fall because it gets dark so early that I need to use lights.

Great links Bea.

 

[suncoast]

You know I love you Jani, but I also think they are too young to be having littles.

Ginger

 

[Lolle]

It makes me so sad to see some people on this forum... It makes me sad to see how people attack when someone is breeding.. Most here are good people that care for their birds, otherwise why join a bird forum? You have people creating the best ways for birds to breed, doing everything they can, making sure the babies goes to a good home.. Yet all i hear is crying when someone is talking about breeding.. Makes me rethink if i belong in this forum, i want to believe the best in people.

 

[Love My Zons]

Jani hun, you know I'd take a baby if you lived close to me. And as far as breeding age is concerned, I don't know. And for the record, great info given in those links.


Jani is probably one of the most dedicated/best persons when it comes to REHOMING and rescuing from fid to dog.

 

[suncoast]

Louise,

Don't be sad. We try very hard here to listen to everybody's imput. If you can present information that's accurate and in the best interests of our birds, then we want to know it.

Sometimes people do get a little excited, but most of the time, issues are resolved and no hard feelings.

We know that Jani's a great bird Mom, and we also know that those fabies will go to great homes. That is not the issue.

What's in question here is... is it in the bird's best interests to be having babies at this time.

I know that Jani will read the information that Bea posted and it will be up to her to decide what is best for them.

We are just here to support her decision.

Ginger

 

[Ashley]

Good luck

 

[Lolle]

Louise,

Don't be sad. We try very hard here to listen to everybody's imput. If you can present information that's accurate and in the best interests of our birds, then we want to know it.

Sometimes people do get a little excited, but most of the time, issues are resolved and no hard feelings.

We know that Jani's a great bird Mom, and we also know that those fabies will go to great homes. That is not the issue.

What's in question here is... is it in the bird's best interests to be having babies at this time.

I know that Jani will read the information that Bea posted and it will be up to her to decide what is best for them.

We are just here to support her decision.

Ginger

It is not just here that people look down on people that breed, i have seen it quite alot on this forum ever since i joined. Its not just giving information, but judging your fellow bird lovers. It has been bothering me for quite a while whats going on in the forums. Bums me out hard!

 

[suncoast]

Without high jacking this thread. The reason that so many of us are against breeding is because there are too many breeders who's only concern is the bottom line. They don't care about the babies they're selling at all.

I know about this first hand with my little girl G2 Truely.

Responsible breeder are far and few on the ground here in the States.

They keep their birds in horrible, horrible situations. They don't educate the people who buy them, which is why there are thousands and thousands of unwanted birds in shelters or worse.

We all know that Jani will be a good parront and her littles will be in good hands, so again, this is about health and welfare of the parent birds.

Ginger

 

[Lolle]

I know that its a fact that some are like that, but why attack before you know about it? Do you find any here that treat birds like that?
I feel like it scares the good people off, and then you only have the bad breeders that does not care about anything.

 

[wolfysluv]

I am SO dissappointed in this forum.

There are gentler ways to share information and to educate others, and certainly to discuss or even debate something without putting people on the defensive or offending them. Tact is always the most effective way to persuade someone to listen to your take on something. Even if an issue is a black and white one, it's always far more contructive and gainful to present yourself as open minded and to "invite" someone to review information.

It's always a win-win situation if you do so. If you want to bring forth information, it's safe to say that you would like it to be as far reaching as possible. So why not seek out the most efficient way to do that? If you want to comment or reply with your feelings and opinions, it's safe to say you want people to listen to you. So why not say it in such a way that provokes thought ... not reaction?

As an educator and advocate for ferrets, I don't care how emotional I feel about something, I always carefully choose my words. I like to start out with something that indicates to the listener that i'm open to their thoughts and that ultimately ... I'm putting them first. For example, "I was thinking that ... what do you think about it?". If I need to correct some information, I always say something like, "I found these resources that appear to be very reliable about ... and it was really interesting to me. After reading it, I thought maybe it'd be something we could discuss here if you'd like. Have you ever head of that?". Better yet you could start off with something kind before you even say anything like above.

An educator is not an "educator" if you speak to the choir. By not always being "right" and picking your battles wisely, you can be a pleasant person to talk to and because of that people who otherwise would not listen to you will ultimately feel pulled in to do so and to learn from you. If I feel like someone believes awful things or behaves awfully .. how have I helped myself or others by pointing that out and criticizing them? What i've done is just alienated them and chased off the very person that needed information the most or more importantly needed a friend that could taught by example so they are nicer to others.

There are people with feelings on the other sides of your moniters. People who care about birds. People who care about other people here. People who deserve respect and caring. They come first. Not the information or my opinions.

 

[bubblelady]

Well said, Wolfy! If we all followed your excellent suggestions for sharing our information, more people would, I believe, be willing to listen.

 

[Peachfaced]

Is it at all possible that your birdies are just, oh... for better lack of word, practicing?

 

[bookworm]

well said wolfy!!! i agree w/ you. you couldn't have said it any better.

 

[wolfysluv]

Well, about the getting people to hear your opinion or to accept science I have lots of practice with because of what I do in the ferret community. They are a pretty passionate group (saying the least). I like to leave things open so the person I'm speaking with feels accepted, valued, and that their desires and opinions have great merit no matter what I think. Because a) they come first and b) I'm not perfect, science is not perfect, so for all I know I could be wrong ultimately.

Also if you realize that we are in our infancy as a civilization and if you study the patterns across history regarding science ... every generation boasts that what they have studied was hard science and the end all. It hasnt' been and it's still not. It changes and mutates as we learn. Who can ever forget the people who were put away in prison so many years ago because forensics was considered a black and white science. The chemicals use to illuminate blood traces ... turned out to also react with some unusual elements combined with iron. But we did not know that for forever and a day. See? I could give some really radical mind blowing recent examples, but you get the idea.

I guess, I just don't understand things that happen like this on this and all other forums? That was why it was so hard to for me write out what I meant. What I wrote is so dicombobulated compared to what I'd like to say. I'll tell you what. I'm open about something ... I am bipolar 1, and I mean the real hard core deal, not what a lot of people are being dx as today. I'm talking in the hospital with past psychotic traits that you can have along with it kind of bipolar 1 (classic). I battle it every day. Medicine is not a silver bullet for me. You're talking the worst mood disorder known to man ... and if I can "control" myself and take care of others feelings, I guess I get bitter over the fact that others can't. Do you know what I mean?