Reducing hormones in cockatiel pair?

[GlassOnion]

I'm having a hard time with getting Apple and Bmo's hormones under control this season and hoping for some input. They get 13-14 hrs of pitch black darkness, are not caged together, get recall flight exercise, are denied warm, mushy foods, and are given Avitech calming drops. Yet their life goal is to find a nest and reproduce.

I'm wondering if I should look into regular lupron or suprelorin implant for either bird or both? Is there anything else I should be trying?

 

[moonchild]

Why not just let them nest and give them fake eggs (or boil the real ones)?

 

[GlassOnion]

Thanks. The only reason I'm uncomfortable with that idea is because in the past, nesting made Bmo a chronic egg layer who became egg bound, which required emergency vet intervention. But I wonder if she'll lay again if given a whole clutch of fake eggs to begin with.

 

[moonchild]

Yikes...tough call there. I know that with my chronic laying hen, Freya, giving her the opportunity to nest (away from the rest of the flock, with another AA member who adopted her and her mate) is what eventually helped. But every bird is different. Hope you find the best solution for Bmo.

 

[Anne & Gang]

You might try lupron shots (they did not work here however). especially if the hen was a chronic layer in the past...I heard that the implants work well too. not much you can do to the male.

 

[jerseybella]

I have 2 on lupron with good results...so far. I think Saroj has Emily on the implant. Maybe message her. She might be a big help.

 

[sunnysmom]

Have you tried frequently rearranging the female's cage too? I've read that they only want to nest when they're comfortable in their environment and switching things up sometimes helps.

 

[Sparky04]

Apple's a male, right? Implants and shots only work for hens. Cora has a problem with chronic egg laying which she started young. The vet'll probably start with one set of shots, which is three injections. The hope is that will break the cycle. It worked while she was getting the shots but as soon as the shots stopped, Cora went back to laying eggs. She then did another set, same results and the vet suggested an implant. The implant is supposed to last 8 months - 1 year, but it only worked for a couple months for Cora. She's back to egg laying, although not as extreme as it was before. The vet thinks she should get back to shots but we're trying to limit light + "Releaves" first. It's too early to tell if it'll work.

 

[GlassOnion]

Thank you all for the input! I was under the impression lupron can work for both genders, maybe not. Bmo hasn't laid an egg since December's egg binding incident -knock on wood- and I'd love to keep it that way.

I think the biggest issue is that they see each other, so are being stimulated everyday, but nothing I ca do there...

 

[jerseybella]

Lupron can be giving to males. It just has a lower success rate. I think it's worth a shot

 

[petiteoiseau]

Thank you all for the input! I was under the impression lupron can work for both genders, maybe not. Bmo hasn't laid an egg since December's egg binding incident -knock on wood- and I'd love to keep it that way.

I think the biggest issue is that they see each other, so are being stimulated everyday, but nothing I ca do there...

No, if she laid in December, the issue is daylight hours and a diet high in protein. I don't approve of Lupron treatments. It's meant to screw up their endocrine system so badly that, when the body realizes it, it stops production of sexual hormones altogether. It was created to be used as a contraceptive for mammals, it hasn't even been tested on birds although avian vets are now using it left and right. It also doesn't act the same way in the long term with birds because it was meant to be used only during heat with dogs and not all year round, plus, when you start with a messed up avian endocrine system instead of a healthy mammal endocrine system you might end up with negative results (it never works, it works only in the short term, etc). And yes, it is supposed to work both in males and females but it is not necessary as it's easy to control sexual hormones, all we have to do is keep birds the way nature meant for them to live: at a bird light schedule and not a human one. Once you put them on a strict solar schedule (and that doesn't mean arbitrarily assigning a number of hours of darkness, it means keeping up with the natural solar seasons so their bodies follow them with the gradual changes in daylight hours and spectra) and their endocrine system goes back on track (it doesn't happen overnight, the longer they have lived under a human light schedule, the more screwed up their endocrine system is, the longer it takes to bring it back to where it's supposed to be), they stop laying. Long days and rich food are the triggers so, if you eliminate the triggers that nature hard-wired in them, they stop producing sexual hormones (you should also reduce protein after molt and increase it back in spring). As to eggbinding, it's a matter of calcium, vit D3 and flying.

 

[GlassOnion]

Could you please elaborate on how to maintain a *proper* solar schedule, besides having 13-14 hours of nightly darkness? They do not get 10hours of BRIGHT light, the light gets dimmer as evening approaches. As for diet, they've been mostly getting Roudybush pellets and dark leafy greens. I've limited sprouted grains and legumes as they are moist, spring time foods. How should I adjust?

 

[petiteoiseau]

Just follow the sun and don't worry about how many hours of dark or light, and give them full exposure to dawn and dusk (and I mean the solar dawn and dusk and not a human created one, that one doesn't work for all birds -for example, right now in NE USA, I turn on their lights at 6:45 am and off at 6:15 pm -more or less, it depends on how bright the day is). I don't feed pellets, I make their food myself (gloop) so it's easier for me to adjust protein (pellets don't allow for it) and I don't feed sprouts or egg at all once breeding season is over. Plus their FSL has a ktemp never higher than 5500 and I try to switch to 5000 in the winter.

 

[MissLeigh]

Just follow the sun and don't worry about how many hours of dark or light, and give them full exposure to dawn and dusk (and I mean the solar dawn and dusk and not a human created one, that one doesn't work for all birds -for example, right now in NE USA, I turn on their lights at 6:45 am and off at 6:15 pm -more or less, it depends on how bright the day is). I don't feed pellets, I make their food myself (gloop) so it's easier for me to adjust protein (pellets don't allow for it) and I don't feed sprouts or egg at all once breeding season is over. Plus their FSL has a ktemp never higher than 5500 and I try to switch to 5000 in the winter.

I am trying to understand what you mean too. You mean when our sun comes up at like 6:15 and then when it sets? But it sets now at 8 pm. My bird won't stop laying eggs and she did propalse back in August of 2013. She has been on Lupron. I am trying once again to figure out what can be changed since she laid an egg this morning. The vet was trying to decrease her injections. She had one two weeks ago and he told me to wait awhile. You said decrease protein. How? I have tried to understand how to make my own food, but I am not sure how.

 

[MissLeigh]

Just follow the sun and don't worry about how many hours of dark or light, and give them full exposure to dawn and dusk (and I mean the solar dawn and dusk and not a human created one, that one doesn't work for all birds -for example, right now in NE USA, I turn on their lights at 6:45 am and off at 6:15 pm -more or less, it depends on how bright the day is). I don't feed pellets, I make their food myself (gloop) so it's easier for me to adjust protein (pellets don't allow for it) and I don't feed sprouts or egg at all once breeding season is over. Plus their FSL has a ktemp never higher than 5500 and I try to switch to 5000 in the winter.

She laid only one egg, three years ago, when I lived in an apartment. I kept her in my living room, which is bright but not super bright. She wasn't near a window. Now I had to move back home and she is directly in front of the window. Also, in my old apartment she got enough food so her dish was empty when I came home. Now my mom, who is retired, gives her food and her dish is never empty. Could these be valid issues?

 

[Monica]

MissLeigh, it may help to create your own thread.


This is generally what I recommend for egg-laying hens.

1. Remove Eggs
   • Rearrange the cage
   • Move the cage to a new location
   • Use a cage grate
   • Get a new cage/Use a different cage
   • 12-14 hours of complete darkness
   • Full Spectrum Lighting/Better Lighting
   • Lower the indoor temperature
   • Decreace calcium and protein within the diet (if she is on a high calcium & protein diet prior to laying eggs)
   • Remove anything that could be taken as a nest
   • Remove anything that could be used as nesting material
   • Don't allow her in any dark place or enclosed area
   • IMPORTANT: save the eggs in the fridge
   • If she lays more than 3-4 eggs, put them back in the cage
2. Leave the Eggs
   • Leave the eggs alone in the cage
   • [Optional] Replace with fake eggs (prevent eggs from breaking)
   • Increase calcium
   • Let hen sit on eggs for 3-4 weeks or until she gets bored of them
   • Once done sitting, toss

Reducing protein may only be good if you have a bird on a high protein diet. Pellets, grains and legumes usually are the main sources of protein. (besides seeds) I had a bourke hen on Harrison's High Potency and I was able to get her to stop laying eggs by switching her to the Adult Lifetime diet. If your hen is eating the AL, then try Roudybush or Lafeber pellets, or put her on a seed diet temporarily!


The main thing is, is that she's laying eggs because something within her environment (diet, cage, toys, cage placement, day/night hours, quality of light, etc) is telling her to, and she wont stop until the triggers to egg laying are removed. If she gets 12-14 hrs of sleep per night, try 16 hours of sleep for two weeks, at least. If that doesn't help, then increase the amount of light to 16 hrs. (aka 8 hrs of darkness)


And yes, Bibi means from the time the sun comes up (i.e. keep the curtains open!) to the time the sun goes down.... whatever time that is. My birds wake with the sun and sleep with the sun. This means that in the summer they may only get 8-9 hrs of sleep (sun comes up sometime after 5am and goes down around 9pm), but in the winter they may get around 14-15 hrs of sleep (sun comes up after 7am and goes down after 4pm). I don't have any birds laying eggs in the winter! Egg laying is mostly in the spring to summer time, occasionally as late as the fall... but I hardly get any eggs in the fall. The temperature inside the house also fluctuates with the seasons, instead of being a constant temperature year round. I don't have chronic egg layers - not even in hens that were chronic egg layers before they came to me!

 

[MissLeigh]

MissLeigh, it may help to create your own thread.


This is generally what I recommend for egg-laying hens.

1. Remove Eggs
   • Rearrange the cage
   • Move the cage to a new location
   • Use a cage grate
   • Get a new cage/Use a different cage
   • 12-14 hours of complete darkness
   • Full Spectrum Lighting/Better Lighting
   • Lower the indoor temperature
   • Decreace calcium and protein within the diet (if she is on a high calcium & protein diet prior to laying eggs)
   • Remove anything that could be taken as a nest
   • Remove anything that could be used as nesting material
   • Don't allow her in any dark place or enclosed area
   • IMPORTANT: save the eggs in the fridge
   • If she lays more than 3-4 eggs, put them back in the cage
2. Leave the Eggs
   • Leave the eggs alone in the cage
   • [Optional] Replace with fake eggs (prevent eggs from breaking)
   • Increase calcium
   • Let hen sit on eggs for 3-4 weeks or until she gets bored of them
   • Once done sitting, toss

Reducing protein may only be good if you have a bird on a high protein diet. Pellets, grains and legumes usually are the main sources of protein. (besides seeds) I had a bourke hen on Harrison's High Potency and I was able to get her to stop laying eggs by switching her to the Adult Lifetime diet. If your hen is eating the AL, then try Roudybush or Lafeber pellets, or put her on a seed diet temporarily!


The main thing is, is that she's laying eggs because something within her environment (diet, cage, toys, cage placement, day/night hours, quality of light, etc) is telling her to, and she wont stop until the triggers to egg laying are removed. If she gets 12-14 hrs of sleep per night, try 16 hours of sleep for two weeks, at least. If that doesn't help, then increase the amount of light to 16 hrs. (aka 8 hrs of darkness)


And yes, Bibi means from the time the sun comes up (i.e. keep the curtains open!) to the time the sun goes down.... whatever time that is. My birds wake with the sun and sleep with the sun. This means that in the summer they may only get 8-9 hrs of sleep (sun comes up sometime after 5am and goes down around 9pm), but in the winter they may get around 14-15 hrs of sleep (sun comes up after 7am and goes down after 4pm). I don't have any birds laying eggs in the winter! Egg laying is mostly in the spring to summer time, occasionally as late as the fall... but I hardly get any eggs in the fall. The temperature inside the house also fluctuates with the seasons, instead of being a constant temperature year round. I don't have chronic egg layers - not even in hens that were chronic egg layers before they came to me!

Thanks! For now I have read this. But, I will need to re-read a few times to make sure I understand everything. I am in the process of taking her off Harrison's Adult Lifetime, which is a lot of protein. And soy, which is why I wanted her off of it. The sunlight issue does make sense since in the wild they would do that. Thank again for your reply!