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Pulmonary Hypertensive Syndrome - Revisited

Hankmacaw

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To protect your B&G from PHS the only absolutely sure way is to get rid of either your B&G or your African Grey. That said, there are people who have kept both species, some for many years, without issue. The problem with that is that no macaw has a sign on their forehead saying that they aren't sensitive to powder down. So those of us who care about our parrots either don't mix the two species or take special precautions against this 100% deadly disease. Remember it only took about two years for Zoe (Red Fronted macaw) to accumulate enough powder down in her respiratory system to kill her.

One thing you must do is have at least one very good Air Purifier and one for each bird is better. There are many brands on Amazon. Second you must not, never, ever house both birds in the same room and more desirable not in the same air source. If you can house them at different ends of the house with doors between that is good (with the air purifiers).

You must clean and especially dust much more often that the average. Make sure your vacuum has a HEPA filter. The powder down is so very small that it travel everywhere and gets into every crack and relofts into the air easily. Give your AG at least two soaking baths a week. Your B&G will need extra baths too to rid her of any dust that has settled on her feathers. Never let them out together inside the house. Being close like that in an enclosed space increases the odds greatly. Out side in the open air in an aviary setting is relatively safe.


Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)

Also known as macaw pulmonary hypersensitivity, macaw asthma, macaw polycythemia, and macaw pneumonitis, this disease is most commonly seen in blue and gold macaws (Ara ararauna). Relative secondary polycythemia is a common finding. Exposure to powder-producing birds such as cockatoos (Cacatua spp.) and African grey parrots is believed to be a predisposing cause. Clinical signs include exertional dyspnea, cyanosis, and a dry, non-productive cough. Definitive diagnosis is through endoscopic lung biopsy. Treatment is aimed at improving air quality, removing potential allergens, treating secondary opportunistic infections. Prolonged treatment with systemic corticosteroids is not generally advised in birds due to the risks of severe immunocompromise.



 

RainbowFlo

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Wow! This is very interesting so thank you for this detailed post :). I don't have any large birds and I don't plan to for at least the next 10 years but I never knew this. Is this where mixing old world and new world birds come into place? Does the new world/old world stuff apply to smaller birds like gcc's and tiels as well as larger birds? Sorry for all the questions...
 

Hankmacaw

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Yes it does apply to parrots - no matter their size. Cockatiels are one of the dustiest birds and Lovebirds are considered dusty birds. Conures are one of the most sensitive bird to powder down.

It doesn't matter - big or tiny - powder down kills.
 

Hankmacaw

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It is treatable, but it is not curable. Once the powder is in the respiratory system it does not come out.

"There is no cure for this syndrome, but with removal of the allergen and clean air there can be marked improvement."

None of the references I gave above say that the disease is curable. It is merely treatable/controllable, as diabetes in birds is, but is ultimately fatal if the bird does not die from one of the numerous opportunistic fungal and bacterial and viral infections that are common when a bird's health is compromised by the Syndrome. A bird's heart is also affected by the lack of adequate oxygen when it has PHS.
 

enigma731

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A chronically managed condition is not the same as a fatal disease, though. Individuals with a chronic condition CAN die from it or its complications but that's certainly not a foregone conclusion. That's why I'd like to see a source that says this condition specifically is 100% fatal.
 

enigma731

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Once the powder is in the respiratory system it does not come out.
Also this bit doesn't make much sense to me physiologically. All parts of the body constantly shed and regenerate cells. The respiratory system in particular does this and also generates secretions in order to clear allergens out of the system at an especially high rate. If the above is true, I'd be very curious to read what it is about powder down than makes it more damaging than other allergens or even cigarette smoke. Birds can heal from being in a smoker's home, after all.

Please note, I'm not doubting that birds CAN die from this. Bad allergic or asthmatic reactions can certainly be fatal. But I'm really curious about what would make this particular condition universally fatal and I haven't been able to find any sources on my own that say it is.
 

Hankmacaw

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First, the airsacs do not have mucous membrane and therefore no scilia nor mucous to move invasive elements.

"3. Air Sacs
Birds have nine air sacs: two cervical, an unpaired clavicular, two cranial thoracic, two caudal thoracic, and two abdominal air sacs. The air sacs are thin-walled structures composed of simple squamous epithelium covering a thin layer of connective tissue with very few blood vessels (McLelland, 1989b). To a varying extent, depending upon the species, diverticula from air sacs aerate cervical vertebrae, some of the thoracic vertebrae, vertebral ribs, sternum, humerus, pelvis, and head and body of the femur (McLelland, 1989b). From a functional point of view, the air sacs may be thought of as bellows to the lungs because they provide a tidal flow of air to the relatively rigid avian lung (Scheid, 1979). Based on their bronchial connections, air sacs are grouped into a cranial group consisting of the cervical, clavicular, and cranial thoracic air sacs, and a caudal group consisting of the caudal thoracic and abdominal air sacs (Fedde, 1980). The volume of the air sacs is distributed approximately equally between the cranial and caudal groups (Scheid and Piiper, 1999a). During ventilation, all air sacs are effectively ventilated, with the possible exception of the cervical air sacs, and the ratio of ventilation to volume is similar for each air sac (Scheid and Piiper, 1999a)."

No mucous, so there can be very little to no removal of foreign material (such as powder down).

 

enigma731

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I didn't say anything about mucus, and none of that answers any of what I asked. By this same logic, air sac mites should be 100% fatal and aren't.
 

enigma731

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I'm not arguing, I'm asking that a clear source be posted considering we're advising someone to get rid of one of their birds. Is that really too much to ask? Being educated about it requires legitimate sources.
 

enigma731

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Okay, I'm not going to put in any more energy when I am being intentionally misunderstood. I have very clearly asked for clarification and sources multiple times now because I want to help other members (in this case a new member who got dogpiled with scary information) make well-informed decisions for the health of their flock. But if this is just going to turn into hand-wringing and accusations that I'm not taking this seriously enough, I'm done. I don't have a personal stake in this.
 
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itzmered

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ML is helping them make well informed decisions. There is enough evidence out there to show that it is harmful to house these two types of birds together especially if you do not take proper precautions. I didn’t realize you were also the only authority on this along with Covid19
 

rebeccahgw

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Hi, I'm new here, and this is the first thread that I've come upon. I have to say, the way that one of your members is being talked to for trying to clarify the reasonability of a recommendation to get rid of a bird for something that MIGHT happen is really quite disheartening. As a veterinary nurse, I've known multiple rescues as well as bird owners that have macaws and greys (and cockatoos, cockatiels, etc) living together without the macaws just up and dying. I feel like it's irresponsible to recommend to make a bird homeless for a rare possibility that can be mitigated. Enigma has every reason to question the science behind that recommendation, and if this is how you treat people that are trying to get more information, then I'm not sure I want to be here.
 

Monaco

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I found the questions and answers helpful. I don't mind wading through information, and enjoy improving my understanding of anatomy and disease processes. Why can't the animosity be on the back burner in these threads. It's not going to hurt anyone to exercise their critical thinking skill muscles.

@rebeccahgw it's spillover from another thread.
 

Macawnutz

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Hi, I'm new here, and this is the first thread that I've come upon. I have to say, the way that one of your members is being talked to for trying to clarify the reasonability of a recommendation to get rid of a bird for something that MIGHT happen is really quite disheartening. As a veterinary nurse, I've known multiple rescues as well as bird owners that have macaws and greys (and cockatoos, cockatiels, etc) living together without the macaws just up and dying. I feel like it's irresponsible to recommend to make a bird homeless for a rare possibility that can be mitigated. Enigma has every reason to question the science behind that recommendation, and if this is how you treat people that are trying to get more information, then I'm not sure I want to be here.
So where are you from and what/who brought you to AA Rebecca?
 
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