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Plucking....

BrianB

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Well, this is a nightmare. I got the last test result back today and my sweet girl has Borna Virus. The question is where did she get it? She's only ever been in physical contact with the male golden I have. I have so many questions for the vet tomorrow when I take her in for her followup.

I've sold some of my green cheek chicks to other breeders and an avian specialist. They had them tested as a matter of course and they were negative. I reached out to the breeder I got them from. He got them from another breeder, but is confident that she tests all of her birds, and he has documentation on it. He's in the process of moving, but we've made plans to talk next week when his life is a little less crazy. We both agree that we need to identify where it came from and talk to the other breeder as well to make sure nothing slipped through.

Now that I look at the bigger picture, it's entirely possible that it came from my old man blue crown conure.
 

Monica

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That's devastating. :sad8:

I know you'll have a lot to think through, but I guess part of the steps will be getting the male tested. If he tests clear, then I imagine you would want to get a different female to pair him with. However, that leaves her. Would you plan to keep her as a pet or?
 

BrianB

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That's devastating. :sad8:

I know you'll have a lot to think through, but I guess part of the steps will be getting the male tested. If he tests clear, then I imagine you would want to get a different female to pair him with. However, that leaves her. Would you plan to keep her as a pet or?
I don't really know. With her being positive, it seems that breeding would be irresponsible. I have an appointment with the vet in the morning. Now that I've had time to work through all the possibilities, and done a little more research on this, it may have come from the cockatiels. They were the last birds to enter the house, and with there being so many, and in such close proximity they seem the most logical source. They were in a 3 stack cage that was only a few feet away from the cage with the Goldens in it. If the most likely transmission router is oral/fecal then it's entirely possible that's how it spread. When the cockatiels first arrived we split the 43 birds into 3 cages. The first weekend they were here, we went out of town for a long weekend. The guys that feed for us called and said that the birds in the top cage had escaped. Fifteen birds were flying loose in the house for most of the day. Now 3 weeks later, I'm still finding little bits of droppings in odd places. I didn't have the top tray in the goldens cage. If they were sitting on top and droppings fell into the cage then that may be how she got it.

No matter what, we're going to get the male tested. When we moved the cockatiels outside, we did take the 3 stack cages outside and scrub it down. Now the three pets are back inside of it. If the male tests positive, then I'll have those 3 tested as well.

The diagnosis raises more questions than it answered. It's also made me paranoid. I didn't want to touch her today because I'm afraid I'll slip up and touch another bird before I sanitize my hands.
 

Vmax

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I’m saddened to read this update. Not knowing anything about this virus, how will it affect her?
 

BrianB

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The vet appointment went well, even though she wasn't really herself that day. She hadn't eaten anything that morning so her weight was down and she was dehydrated some. She will not stand on the perch to be weighed, nor will she sit in the bin on top of the scale. Oddly enough, she will lay on her back for me. I was able to get her on her back on the scale and take my hands away. She just laid there until they were able to get her weight and when I put my finger down she grabbed it and pulled herself up. The vet tech said he's never weighed a bird that way but whatever works. I had purchased a fabric collar for her because the plastic ball collar is right over the middle of her crop. They got it on her and said she tolerated it well, but when they turned their backs on her, she folded it in half and started pulling a feather off of her leg. They put the ball collar back on her. She may not have felt well, but her spunky personality wasn't diminished at all.

I had a really good conversation with the vet and she had just come back from an exotic bird conference. She said that is a lot of misinformation about ABV, and in reality, there is a lot that they just don't have enough hard science on yet. There is a lot that they suspect, but it is still unproven. She recommends that the female never share a cage with her mate again. We did run another test to rule out a false positive. They also ran another test that is more sensitive and will be able to tell if the plucking is related to a high level of antibodies in her system. This would indicate that her body is fighting the infection and the plucking is related to an immune system response. If the second test confirms it, then I'll need to get the male tested as well. If he is negative, then we will look for another mate for him. My girl will never be bred and will remain a pet. She was never intended to be a pet, just somewhat socialized to make it easier to access eggs and chicks during breeding. Now I'll get to spoil her rotten. I guess it's not a bad thing overall. I went over my protocol with the vet and she believes it is sufficient to prevent the spread to my other pets. Again, the science on the transmission is lacking, but the most likely source is the oral/fecal route as well as intimate contact between birds. She agrees with my theory that the cockatiels may be the source of the infection. The testing of 51 cockatiels is cost-prohibitive, and a logistical nightmare. I still have more questions than answers, but I do feel better equipped to take care of her and protect the other birds. As for her long term prognosis, it's difficult to say. The vet said the virus is a lot more common than they had originally thought. A lot of times it is discovered through routine testing while the bird is being treated for something else. Many birds live long healthy lives with it and have no ill effects. She said that others go through cycles where it will flare up and cause issues like plucking, then calm down again and not be an issue for years. For some birds the course of the disease is devastating and the period between infection and death is relatively short. There are multiple strains of the virus and none of them have been fully investigated yet, and they really don't know which strain causes a particular outcome. She's being treated with an anti-inflammatory for the time being, and that seems to be helping. We're just going to take it slow and see what happens.

As for the Patagonians with ABV that I mentioned in another thread, I've decided to sell them. One of my neighbors has already complained about them. I got an email about them. She basically said they were driving her and her husband nuts and they could hear it inside their house and was there anything I could do about it, and, and, and.... They have a long history of complaining about noise in the neighborhood and I would rather not be the next victim of their harassment. I put up a tarp to muffle some of the noise but made it clear that sunrise and sunset squawking is a natural bird thing and there isn't anything I can do about it. I also explained that bringing them inside is not an option. Hopefully, that's enough to keep them at bay for a while. We're a lot closer than they are, and we can't hear them inside at all. I'll be selling them with full disclosure, and if I don't feel the buyer is capable of providing for them in a way I feel comfortable, then I won't sell.
 

BrianB

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A quick update - my girl goes back for her anti-inflammatory injection today. We did another test to confirm the ABV and it was positive as well. I'm bringing her mate in today to have him tested. That's going to be fun because he hasn't been handled. I know they can handle him at the office, but getting him into the carrier will be a chore. Hopefully, I come out of it without him biting me.
 

BrianB

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Good reports all around. The male didn't bite me and didn't bite anyone at the vet's office. The vet said that he's going through a molt, but is in great shape. She said his pin feathers all look really good. He did break one when I got him into the cage, but it clotted right away and didn't need to be pulled out. The test should be back later this week. My girl has maintained her weight even with the ball collar on. The congestion I've been hearing is not in her lungs, just in her head. She expects that to clear in a few days with the antibiotics. We put her in a large soft collar. She's one unhappy bird. The collar is as big as she is but keeps her from getting to her body and plucking. I had to remove her perches so she can move around. It's progress.
 

BrianB

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Today was our last vet visit and hopefully, we can put this behind us. She had her last anti-inflammatory injection today. Her weight is back up to where it should be, and the collar is off. They took the collar off for observation and she spent 10 minutes preening herself and working on new pin feathers. No sign of plucking or self-mutilation. The poor girl has not been happy with me because I haven't spent much time with her the last week. I've had a cold and I've been limiting myself to feeding and changing the water between naps. The next visit will be for a regular checkup in a month or so. I still need to do the other test and send it to a different lab. I don't expect the results to be different, but it's money well spent.
 

BrianB

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It's been a while, but my pretty girl is back. The plucking did not become habitual, and almost all of the feathers have regrown. I was at the vet's office with another bird and the Dr asked about her. She was thrilled with her progress. With all the poking and prodding she received, she's not keen on being handled much, but that's ok with me. I'll take her being standoffish instead of suffering.
 

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Begone

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Thanks for sharing all this. :)
I did learn a lot reading this thread, and to see that she is fine today makes me really happy.
 

Mockinbirdiva

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She's beautiful and I'm so happy she's regrown her feathers as I'm sure you are! Can you think of anything that may have contributed to the end of the plucking?
 

BrianB

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She's beautiful and I'm so happy she's regrown her feathers as I'm sure you are! Can you think of anything that may have contributed to the end of the plucking?
The anti-inflammatory injections made a huge difference. We got her into a collar right away to stop her from doing it. The vet described it like this - think about people twist and pull their hair out. Logically they know they shouldn't do it because it hurts, but when they do it, they get an endorphin rush and it makes them feel good. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle that's very hard to break. It's the same for birds. Many pluckers scream when they pull a feather because it hurts, but the endorphins rush in and override the pain. It becomes addictive. She plucked herself on a Sunday and by Monday afternoon she was in a collar. Cutting off the behavior right away helps prevents it from becoming habitual. About 2 weeks after we took the collar off for about 10 minutes and she started biting her legs. That let the vet know that her immune system was still in overdrive and she needed more injections. I moved her to a soft collar, but it was too thin. She folded it in half and got to her legs again. I got another one that was thicker, and really just ridiculous, but that's what worked. It made her clumsy and unable to climb very well so I removed her perches. I had to rearrange her food dishes to make it easier for her to eat. The end result is what mattered. When the collar came off after the last injection she started working on her pin feathers, but she didn't pluck them. There was a little fluff lost here and there, but that's normal when new feathers are growing.
So I guess the answer is - immediate vet care as soon as the plucking starts and physically preventing them from doing it while you track down the cause.
 

Mockinbirdiva

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The anti-inflammatory injections made a huge difference. We got her into a collar right away to stop her from doing it. The vet described it like this - think about people twist and pull their hair out. Logically they know they shouldn't do it because it hurts, but when they do it, they get an endorphin rush and it makes them feel good. It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle that's very hard to break. It's the same for birds. Many pluckers scream when they pull a feather because it hurts, but the endorphins rush in and override the pain. It becomes addictive. She plucked herself on a Sunday and by Monday afternoon she was in a collar. Cutting off the behavior right away helps prevents it from becoming habitual. About 2 weeks after we took the collar off for about 10 minutes and she started biting her legs. That let the vet know that her immune system was still in overdrive and she needed more injections. I moved her to a soft collar, but it was too thin. She folded it in half and got to her legs again. I got another one that was thicker, and really just ridiculous, but that's what worked. It made her clumsy and unable to climb very well so I removed her perches. I had to rearrange her food dishes to make it easier for her to eat. The end result is what mattered. When the collar came off after the last injection she started working on her pin feathers, but she didn't pluck them. There was a little fluff lost here and there, but that's normal when new feathers are growing.
So I guess the answer is - immediate vet care as soon as the plucking starts and physically preventing them from doing it while you track down the cause.
Your vets description is exactly how I've likened this behavior too in comparing to people who twist and pull their hair with the endorphin rush. I'm really happy for her and for you and so glad you acted on this behavior so quickly.
 

BrianB

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Your vet's description is exactly how I've likened this behavior too in comparison to people who twist and pull their hair with the endorphin rush. I'm really happy for her and for you and so glad you acted on this behavior so quickly.
Thanks. I have a great vet. She's not avian certified, but she's very knowledgable and there are other certified specialists on staff that she can consult with when she comes across something she feels she doesn't know enough about. She personally called the day after each appointment to see how she was doing and to see if I had any questions. Sometimes that makes all the difference.
 
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