• Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
    Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here

Opinions on BirdTricks?

nastronaut

Moving in
Joined
9/22/21
Messages
11
I've seen some of their newer videos, and generally from what I've gathered - they reinforce training at times before your bird has eaten. More of a routine and scheduling, not withholding anything, and they explicitly say not to take food or a food tray away from the bird.

Being new here, it seems a bit unfair for the experienced forum members to not be providing the actual receipts (vs quotes or paraphrasing) to the allegations. I understand opinions may be long formed but in a present context it's not a fair argument to an outsider. For example like someone saying they're timestamping vs providing screenshots at the timestamp and link at timestamp if you're feeling it.

At least then it gives an opportunity for a more objective response than just slamming them 13 pages deep.

New here and researching/prepping :)
 

Monica

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
5/18/10
Messages
11,253
Location
Hell, NV
Real Name
Monica
@javi I don't believe *MOST* people here are against birds working for food or treats! However, it is quite another thing when birds consume extra water, eat too fast, are actively begging for food, etc. Not very many behaviorists or trainers will point out the flaws of others, or if they do, they don't name the people... There are a few who have though.... and this page is one of them.... and even goes into detail who else has seen these poor training techniques!



If we want to delve further into it... The Bird Wizard has been another person who has starved his own birds. He freely defends himself! His vets say the birds are at a great weight! However, you can have an animal starving for food without being underweight. Here's where BW defended himself.... (which, btw, we even spoke about in this thread before!)



Where did BW learn his training techniques from?!?!?! Bird Tricks.


BW used to be a proponent of free flight.... now, he only takes his birds out in a harness, to my knowledge. What changed? He lost one of his birds. Somehow, I can't help but wonder if he lost his bird due to poor training practices or something else.
 

nastronaut

Moving in
Joined
9/22/21
Messages
11
@javi I don't believe *MOST* people here are against birds working for food or treats! However, it is quite another thing when birds consume extra water, eat too fast, are actively begging for food, etc. Not very many behaviorists or trainers will point out the flaws of others, or if they do, they don't name the people... There are a few who have though.... and this page is one of them.... and even goes into detail who else has seen these poor training techniques!



If we want to delve further into it... The Bird Wizard has been another person who has starved his own birds. He freely defends himself! His vets say the birds are at a great weight! However, you can have an animal starving for food without being underweight. Here's where BW defended himself.... (which, btw, we even spoke about in this thread before!)



Where did BW learn his training techniques from?!?!?! Bird Tricks.


BW used to be a proponent of free flight.... now, he only takes his birds out in a harness, to my knowledge. What changed? He lost one of his birds. Somehow, I can't help but wonder if he lost his bird due to poor training practices or something else.
To me the bird tricksters opinion piece is a bit over relied on in the context of the thread, especially considering how it's dated and how many of the sources are no longer available. I feel direct criticisms and examples would be way more fruitful than generalization for those learning. Plus it gives the ability for an objective defense if BT so chose.

Not even a bird tricks customer or fanatic just playing devil's advocate here.
 

AussieBird

Rollerblading along the road
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
7/23/20
Messages
4,651
Real Name
Call me AB
I feel direct criticisms and examples would be way more fruitful than generalization for those learning. Plus it gives the ability for an objective defense if BT so chose.
There has been several of those in this thread.
For instance I pointed out some things they did with Sugar that I did not agree with or think was right.

I think everyone need to do plenty of research and reach their own conclusion about BT, I know I did and it’s that I would rather go to someone more qualified for my training/behaviour advice.

Btw Welcome to the Avenue! ;)
 

nastronaut

Moving in
Joined
9/22/21
Messages
11
There has been several of those in this thread.
For instance I pointed out some things they did with Sugar that I did not agree with or think was right.

I think everyone need to do plenty of research and reach their own conclusion about BT, I know I did and it’s that I would rather go to someone more qualified for my training/behaviour advice.

Btw Welcome to the Avenue! ;)
I get that it's an opinion post for sure but also just reading through pages of this thread looking for the most objective information and examples possible is actually quite sparse which I think does the community a disservice.

So those with the most objective criticisms really putting in a bit more leg work to frame them would go way further, to me. Not to say new people shouldn't have to work and research, but if more experienced people don't reiterate that in more current ways the objectivity gets lost.

Thanks for the warm welcome :)
 

GreenThing

Jogging around the block
Joined
5/24/21
Messages
722
Location
South Florida
Real Name
Kat
I get that it's an opinion post for sure but also just reading through pages of this thread looking for the most objective information and examples possible is actually quite sparse which I think does the community a disservice.

So those with the most objective criticisms really putting in a bit more leg work to frame them would go way further, to me. Not to say new people shouldn't have to work and research, but if more experienced people don't reiterate that in more current ways the objectivity gets lost.

Thanks for the warm welcome :)
Agreeing with @AussieBird -- why use them as a primary resource when more qualified behaviorists are out there? BirdTricks' were some of the first videos I found on bringing budgies home. I appreciated her emphasis on recall training and teaching things like going through the hand tunnel because they can help a budgie in an emergency situation. At first I was surprised when I picked up on their bad reputation (there is some perfectly fine information in their newer videos), but I get it, now. For one, a community like parrot caretakers or free flyers thrives on word of mouth and community information sharing. Folks like the Bird Tricks people who 1) train their birds for entertainment purposes, 2) aggressively market high-priced foods and information materials, 3) promote themselves as exclusive behavioral consultants, all 4) without having any solid credentials (the fact that they were offering consultations years ago with even less experience is a red flag to me)-- yeah, that is going to raise some eyebrows.

I think the emotional edge comes from their ubiquity on YouTube and the lack of appreciation that creates for people who have been in the field far longer. Some of that is an internet thing. An "influencer" with a mastery of social media can build more clout than someone whose been plugging away for decades offline, dedicated to their work. Likewise, people newer to the community who really learn something from their videos feel defensive when they see them criticized or just dismissed by folks whose opinions have been shaped by word or mouth or longer familiarity with their work.

Personally, I think if you read the links in this thread (or this one from 2016) not just looking for detailed take-downs of Bird Tricks with facts and logic, but looking at other approaches to avian behavior, I think you will find a richer trove of resources than Bird Tricks has to offer, and for free.
 

finchly

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
5/16/14
Messages
12,708
Location
SW Florida
Real Name
Finchly
Personally, I think if you read the links in this thread (or this one from 2016) not just looking for detailed take-downs of Bird Tricks with facts and logic, but looking at other approaches to avian behavior, I think you will find a richer trove of resources than Bird Tricks has to offer, and for free.
Excellent advice.

@nastronaut on most topics, if you'll use the search tool you can find much more information. Honestly some of us might skip over the details because it's been discussed to death. I get that you want to form your own opinion, but when you have a number of veteran members here in outspoken agreement, you can bet they're right.
 

Monica

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
5/18/10
Messages
11,253
Location
Hell, NV
Real Name
Monica
Agreeing with @AussieBird -- why use them as a primary resource when more qualified behaviorists are out there? BirdTricks' were some of the first videos I found on bringing budgies home. I appreciated her emphasis on recall training and teaching things like going through the hand tunnel because they can help a budgie in an emergency situation. At first I was surprised when I picked up on their bad reputation (there is some perfectly fine information in their newer videos), but I get it, now. For one, a community like parrot caretakers or free flyers thrives on word of mouth and community information sharing. Folks like the Bird Tricks people who 1) train their birds for entertainment purposes, 2) aggressively market high-priced foods and information materials, 3) promote themselves as exclusive behavioral consultants, all 4) without having any solid credentials (the fact that they were offering consultations years ago with even less experience is a red flag to me)-- yeah, that is going to raise some eyebrows.

I think the emotional edge comes from their ubiquity on YouTube and the lack of appreciation that creates for people who have been in the field far longer. Some of that is an internet thing. An "influencer" with a mastery of social media can build more clout than someone whose been plugging away for decades offline, dedicated to their work. Likewise, people newer to the community who really learn something from their videos feel defensive when they see them criticized or just dismissed by folks whose opinions have been shaped by word or mouth or longer familiarity with their work.

Personally, I think if you read the links in this thread (or this one from 2016) not just looking for detailed take-downs of Bird Tricks with facts and logic, but looking at other approaches to avian behavior, I think you will find a richer trove of resources than Bird Tricks has to offer, and for free.

This! Definitely this!


I may have never been a customer of BT, but I've had birds for over 20 years now... and I've seen the old BT videos of them trying to sell their videos! "Barreling over cliffs" - your flying in a helicopter. Big whoop-de-doo! "Swimming with sharks!" - black tipped reef sharks - just about on the same level as nurse sharks in regards to danger. Meh... That don't impress me much!

And to see how they used to recommend flooding a parrot to get that bird to behave? One approach was taking a dowel and rubbing it down the bird's back until the bird simply gives up! They did a video series called "One Day Miracles".... which is quite misleading because you can't instantly fix ingrained behavior within a day! It takes time and training. I watched one of the videos and even in the video, they didn't look confident in what they were doing. Compare this to a trainer such as Barbara Heidenreich and Lara Joseph... the body language of these trainers is full of much more confidence as well as understanding than BT.



To be fair though, BT *IS* better than they used to be! They HAVE improved! But.... I still feel like they have more learning to do.
 

Bunchobird

Sprinting down the street
Joined
6/8/21
Messages
324
Location
Panama City, Florida
Real Name
Mali
I am personaly a big fan, and found that the method of her teaching works well with my budgie. I think that it just depend on what works well for you and for your bird. I do recognise that they are WAYY overpricing their products. (as i write this, little bluberry is sitting with me)
 

nastronaut

Moving in
Joined
9/22/21
Messages
11
Agreeing with @AussieBird -- why use them as a primary resource when more qualified behaviorists are out there? BirdTricks' were some of the first videos I found on bringing budgies home. I appreciated her emphasis on recall training and teaching things like going through the hand tunnel because they can help a budgie in an emergency situation. At first I was surprised when I picked up on their bad reputation (there is some perfectly fine information in their newer videos), but I get it, now. For one, a community like parrot caretakers or free flyers thrives on word of mouth and community information sharing. Folks like the Bird Tricks people who 1) train their birds for entertainment purposes, 2) aggressively market high-priced foods and information materials, 3) promote themselves as exclusive behavioral consultants, all 4) without having any solid credentials (the fact that they were offering consultations years ago with even less experience is a red flag to me)-- yeah, that is going to raise some eyebrows.

I think the emotional edge comes from their ubiquity on YouTube and the lack of appreciation that creates for people who have been in the field far longer. Some of that is an internet thing. An "influencer" with a mastery of social media can build more clout than someone whose been plugging away for decades offline, dedicated to their work. Likewise, people newer to the community who really learn something from their videos feel defensive when they see them criticized or just dismissed by folks whose opinions have been shaped by word or mouth or longer familiarity with their work.

Personally, I think if you read the links in this thread (or this one from 2016) not just looking for detailed take-downs of Bird Tricks with facts and logic, but looking at other approaches to avian behavior, I think you will find a richer trove of resources than Bird Tricks has to offer, and for free.
My whole thing is that they're definitely filling a niche. From what I see many of these other professionals or experts, simply aren't putting themselves at the forefront at scale.

For the points:
1) to some degree most people have their pets for companionship and entertainment, building a business around that isn't the end of the world.
2) a successful business has to aggressively market or they go out of business and fail.
3) they may not be exclusive, but they have consolidated tons of information that may be freely available, but sifting through all that information is work, most of the websites are old with broken links, and curating processes/information is how most businesses operate.
4) in the present as we see with the labor crisis for example, real world experience can compete with book knowledge. I'm not trying to discount science at all, but realistically - where are all of these solid credentials? Scattered amongst a plethora of information isn't going to cut it for most newcomers. It's important to have palatable access to all that science, else what good is it doing?

I get the ethical debates, but if I were moderating a lot of the lack of source work by those alleging things would not fly - you need links and pictures to back those up.
 

finchly

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
5/16/14
Messages
12,708
Location
SW Florida
Real Name
Finchly
To be not affiliated with them, you sure spend a lot of time defending them/ praising them.

IMO bird tricks noticed some time back they weren’t being promoted on this forum, and they’re working hard to correct it.
 

GreenThing

Jogging around the block
Joined
5/24/21
Messages
722
Location
South Florida
Real Name
Kat
My whole thing is that they're definitely filling a niche.
I don't disagree!

1) to some degree most people have their pets for companionship and entertainment, building a business around that isn't the end of the world.
2) a successful business has to aggressively market or they go out of business and fail.
Sure. It worked for P.T. Barnum! Not to get too anti-capitalist, profit is great, but when you are profiting off of appearing to have expertise, the buyer gets to criticize your expertise. I reserve the right, personally, to be skeptical towards anyone who repackages food, toys, or information and sells it for a higher price than it is available elsewhere. Skeptical, not hating. Actually, if BT marketed themselves as performers trying to bring contemporary, humane behavioral science into the training of performing animals (instead of promoting themselves as behaviorists first and foremost), I think you'd see less negativity! All it would take would be framing themselves consistently as learners, not experts with consultation fees.

in the present as we see with the labor crisis for example, real world experience can compete with book knowledge.
Most of the behaviorists Monica listed in the link I included do have more hands on experience than academic clout, in fact. The extent and nature of that experience is exactly why I ultimately find them more compelling.

if I were moderating a lot of the lack of source work by those alleging things would not fly - you need links and pictures to back those up.
I don't want to pass my place as a relative newcomer, but this ain't Wikipedia. This is a forum for community discussion. There is no burden of proof that anyone here is obligated to meet in order to criticize some YouTubers. Forum rules are the only standard users need adhere to-- how much opinion and anecdote shared here you choose to believe is up to you.

Honestly, though, speaking as both a librarian and educator, the implied "I can't be bothered to Google Barbara Heidenreich" is a pretty weak objection. If you really care to know why some folks are saying "I find these animal behaviorists more authoritative that these self-marketed behaviorists", read their work, full stop. What do they have to say? How long have they been working in the field? What is their academic background? Who have they worked with? How long? Are they mentioned in peer-reviewed publications, or do they themselves reference peer-reviewed publications? Are they familiar with contemporary theories and methods, or do they reference stereotypical and outdated theories and methods?

You'll notice for plenty of users here, all it took was one recommendation of "flooding" techniques for them to check out and put BT in the "marketing savvy amateurs" bin. A biologist hearing someone speak confidently of "alpha" wolves would have the same reaction. There is some bad science that, if you have done just the baseline of self-education, you will recognize.

With internet access, you have the entire world (information and misinformation) at your fingertips. Information literacy is fraught these days, but reading and learning to evaluate resources yourself is well worth it.
 

The_Mayor

Sprinting down the street
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
9/3/20
Messages
518
Location
Washington, DC
Real Name
Martha
You'll notice for plenty of users here, all it took was one recommendation of "flooding" techniques for them to check out and put BT in the "marketing savvy amateurs" bin.
I'm quoting GT, but, also replying to Nastronaut.

Yeah, the other thing is, with very few exceptions that I'm aware of, for most of us here, our birds are pets and companions.

My birds aren't responsible for helping to pay our household expenses. If I did a stage show in which I stuck my hand in an alligator's mouth, I would probably be fine with using flooding, learned helplessness, food withholding, and probably a couple of test runs with a titanium arm to convince that alligator that biting down would be a *really* bad idea.

But none of that relates to training *my* birds. I enjoy my birds' company and I want them to enjoy mine.

So, it probably makes sense that a technique like flooding would be antithetical to what I'm trying to create with my birds. I don't want them to hang out with me because they think they have to. I want them to think, "as humans go, she's actually pretty okay."

I can't give you in-depth critiques of BT's program (honestly video isn't really my preferred way to gain information so clicking through their videos to find specific areas that would cause me concern, not something I'd want to do), but I did watch a part of one (fairly old, but it was linked on one of the main pages. The man (forget his name) was addressing some concerns that had been raised about their approach to food management. One of the things he said (I'm paraphrasing) was basically: most pet birds are obese (I think he said something like 90%) so, really, not only is it not bad for your bird to limit their food, really it's good for them.

Except, one, if you're looking at averages or norms that may be true, but any given bird owner watching the video might actually have one or more birds that are actually underweight or overweight but under-nourished. If we know that pet birds frequently don't have the best diets, that makes it even more important to address those problems directly, rather than risk creating further dysfunctions by using food as leverage.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with using food as a reinforcer. But, I want them to be looking forward to their meals and treats, but I never want to do anything that might make them feel food insecure. There's no trick that could be worth that.
 

Wardy

Rollerblading along the road
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
4/12/21
Messages
4,706
I will hold my hand up and say i did watch birdtricks videos whils i was considering buying my first parrot i watched a lot of youtube videos took as much info in as i could i also googled other various sources and had a read and whilst googling i stumbled upon AA.

My first question when joining the sight was where can i get a conure in the UK ? i got some good sound answers but nothing heavy, I didnt take the advice of re-homing a bird i found a breeder and bought Mojo.

I have learnt a massive amount from AA and it cost me nothing i have been learning from people who have kept birds for a long time and i am comfortable asking anything and i know i will get good sound advice ( or maybe something i feel the need to question )


Some of the advice has been a simple link - read this and i have and i have, and i have taken something from this as i have from pretty much all of the posts i have made asking for advice.

if you watch enough youtube videos you see a degree of nepotism amongst them where they quote each other and the advice they are giving, in my opinon the people on this forum all have one thing i common they care about there birds and recognise people who want to care for there own birds and help and support them.

y whole thing is that they're definitely filling a niche. From what I see many of these other professionals or experts, simply aren't putting themselves at the forefront at scale.
Why should they put themselves at the forefront these people are genuine profesionals with evidence and experience of how to progress with your bird.

1) to some degree most people have their pets for companionship and entertainment, building a business around that isn't the end of the world.
personllay i find the word pet a poor choice of words my birds are part of my family we live together and whilst they need me to care for them we are all in this together.
2) a successful business has to aggressively market or they go out of business and fail.
Yes to a degree they do however this aggresive marketing does not mean they are correct in the advice they give it means they have good marketing skills

3) they may not be exclusive, but they have consolidated tons of information that may be freely available, but sifting through all that information is work, most of the websites are old with broken links, and curating processes/information is how most businesses operate.

Sifting through all the information is work ? poor attitude in my opinion i will search for as much information as i can on the web i will ask as many questions as i can on this forum seems to me like a very lazy attitude.
4) in the present as we see with the labor crisis for example, real world experience can compete with book knowledge. I'm not trying to discount science at all, but realistically - where are all of these solid credentials? Scattered amongst a plethora of information isn't going to cut it for most newcomers. It's important to have palatable access to all that science, else what good is it doing?
Cant get much more real world experience from the plethora of info on AA

and why isnt the info going to cut it for most newcomers ? i am a newcomer and it works for me i do however undestand work needs to be put in and i am fine with that and the reason i am fine with it is i care about my girls ( birds )
I get the ethical debates, but if I were moderating a lot of the lack of source work by those alleging things would not fly - you need links and pictures to back those up.
Likewise can you qualify and subsantiate all of the claims made by birdtricks ? and i dont just mean links and pictures i mean real evidence not just a quote from Janet from Nevada who states on there website birdtricks have got my bird doing xy and z who is Janet and lets see the real evidence ?


I am personaly a big fan, and found that the method of her teaching works well with my budgie. I think that it just depend on what works well for you and for your bird. I do recognise that they are WAYY overpricing their products. (as i write this, little bluberry is sitting with me)

You say there method of teaching well for your budgie could other methods work better ?

you say what works well for you surely its got to be what works for your bird not you the easiest and most direct route might work for you but may not be the best option for your bird.
it is good that Bluberry is sitting with you as you write your post fair play Mojo sits with me and i have never done the birdtricks thing......

To be not affiliated with them, you sure spend a lot of time defending them/ praising them.

IMO bird tricks noticed some time back they weren’t being promoted on this forum, and they’re working hard to correct it.

great shout this

if i had nothig to do wuth BT i would have well and truly called you out on your comment as soon as you made it
 

Monica

Cruising the avenue
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
5/18/10
Messages
11,253
Location
Hell, NV
Real Name
Monica
My birds aren't responsible for helping to pay our household expenses. If I did a stage show in which I stuck my hand in an alligator's mouth, I would probably be fine with using flooding, learned helplessness, food withholding, and probably a couple of test runs with a titanium arm to convince that alligator that biting down would be a *really* bad idea.

Had to laugh at this!!! :roflmao: As it turns out, you don't need to use force or flooding techniques to work with gators, either! ;) Lara Joseph proves that! :D










 

nastronaut

Moving in
Joined
9/22/21
Messages
11
I will hold my hand up and say i did watch birdtricks videos whils i was considering buying my first parrot i watched a lot of youtube videos took as much info in as i could i also googled other various sources and had a read and whilst googling i stumbled upon AA.

My first question when joining the sight was where can i get a conure in the UK ? i got some good sound answers but nothing heavy, I didnt take the advice of re-homing a bird i found a breeder and bought Mojo.

I have learnt a massive amount from AA and it cost me nothing i have been learning from people who have kept birds for a long time and i am comfortable asking anything and i know i will get good sound advice ( or maybe something i feel the need to question )


Some of the advice has been a simple link - read this and i have and i have, and i have taken something from this as i have from pretty much all of the posts i have made asking for advice.

if you watch enough youtube videos you see a degree of nepotism amongst them where they quote each other and the advice they are giving, in my opinon the people on this forum all have one thing i common they care about there birds and recognise people who want to care for there own birds and help and support them.



Why should they put themselves at the forefront these people are genuine profesionals with evidence and experience of how to progress with your bird.



personllay i find the word pet a poor choice of words my birds are part of my family we live together and whilst they need me to care for them we are all in this together.


Yes to a degree they do however this aggresive marketing does not mean they are correct in the advice they give it means they have good marketing skills
I think those are great responses everyone. I don't mean to come off rude, and hope the additional context helps others too!

@Wardy I just mean the forefront as in pushing into the spheres of people who otherwise won't have access to that info. Obviously BT is not perfect, and have to make money, but overall they're advocating for better animal husbandry in contrast to what many of their viewers might otherwise see. Pet can be poor word choice, but it really comes down to care and husbandry - we see so many examples of objectified and neglected birds, but if we're only giving examples of our preferred context or ethics vs real (sourced, linked, screenshotted, overly blunt and specific) examples it's way harder for that to be constructive for readers, newcomers, person or entity being criticized, or those who come after and push into the forefront.

Tldr; the community being concise and overly objective with criticisms helps literally everyone. Less contextual and ethical smears overall also helps the greater community expand.
 
Last edited:

nastronaut

Moving in
Joined
9/22/21
Messages
11
To be not affiliated with them, you sure spend a lot of time defending them/ praising them.

IMO bird tricks noticed some time back they weren’t being promoted on this forum, and they’re working hard to correct it.
Honestly this is just me building perspective as a newcomer, that said I'm also into game moderation, game/web development, aquaculture, and I'm a full time beekeeper. My points are simply my own, and I bring them up because I thought the thread needed some counterpoints to be discussed, even if just for my own clarity. I think @GreenThing @The_Mayor and @Monica hit the nail on the head with these last sets of replies within the realm of what I was trying to figure out with their overall objective viewpoints, and surely there's room for all of us to attain improved husbandry :)
 
Last edited:

tka

Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Joined
4/4/17
Messages
4,433
Location
London, UK
Honestly, though, speaking as both a librarian and educator, the implied "I can't be bothered to Google Barbara Heidenreich" is a pretty weak objection. If you really care to know why some folks are saying "I find these animal behaviorists more authoritative that these self-marketed behaviorists", read their work, full stop. What do they have to say? How long have they been working in the field? What is their academic background? Who have they worked with? How long? Are they mentioned in peer-reviewed publications, or do they themselves reference peer-reviewed publications? Are they familiar with contemporary theories and methods, or do they reference stereotypical and outdated theories and methods?
This is a really good point.

Something that you might find useful is looking at established animal behaviourists' websites and comparing them to Bird Tricks.

Barbara Heidenreich | Good Bird Inc. - Barbara Heidenreich is very upfront about her qualifications and experience. She offers products to buy, but you get a really clear sense about what you are paying for. She's a member of appropriate professional organisations, has taught on veterinary teaching programmes, and has worked with many parrot conservation projects, sanctuaries, rescues, zoos and other organisations. You can see, very clearly, that she's part of a network of professionals: she both teaches and, through attending conferences and workshops, is constantly learning from others and developing her approach.

https://pamelaclarkonline.com/ - Pamela Clark's is under construction so isn't as extensive, but it's easy to navigate and there's a wealth of free resources available. She's upfront about her experience and what she can offer. The free resources are clear and concise, and not padded out. What I like about this website is that it's very non-gimmicky. If you look at the blog and testimonials, it's clear that she is also part of a professional network, works with others, and is constantly refining her approach.

Something I find off-putting about Bird Tricks is that they don't say much about any network of other trainers and behaviourists they work with and are influenced by. It's the academic in me, but I want to know where someone's coming from and who their influences are. I want to know that they have people that they continue to learn from. I want to know that they are esteemed by their peers - and I want to know that they know who their peers are. I'm suspicious of Bird Tricks because they seem to lock you into their bubble and don't encourage you to seek outside influences. I see them marketing their own brand of food (based on an existing product) and toys (made by an existing manufacturer but repackaged as BT) as part of that.

In short, I would expect to see the same professional standards as I apply to myself. If someone came to me for professional advice and challenged me about my expertise, I would have zero problem saying where I got my PhD, where I've worked, the books and journal articles I've published, the conferences I present at, the workshops I've taken part in, the journals I peer-review for, the people I've co-authored work for - and, crucially, if it turns out that I'm not someone who can help them, I know my professional network and can direct them to someone who is more closely aligned with what they need.
 

GreenThing

Jogging around the block
Joined
5/24/21
Messages
722
Location
South Florida
Real Name
Kat
Honestly this is just me building perspective as a newcomer, that said I'm also into game moderation, game/web development, aquaculture, and I'm a full time beekeeper. My points are simply my own, and I bring them up because I thought the thread needed some counterpoints to be discussed, even if just for my own clarity. I think @GreenThing @The_Mayor and @Monica hit the nail on the head with these last sets of replies within the realm of what I was trying to figure out with their overall objective viewpoints, and surely there's room for all of us to attain improved husbandry :)
Ooh-- you should definitely make a thread about beekeeping! I've done a tiny bit of hands-on volunteering and wrote a little enviro ed curriculum on swarming behavior for my MEd final project, and I would have lots of questions.

Good faith counterpoints always engender more useful conversation than an echo-chamber. Your reply did make me think about a business phrase we throw around in the library field-- "barriers to entry". How easy should it be, can it be, to learn the basics of caring for birds? Are the basics enough, or is the challenge of researching an essential part of preparation?

Being a bird caretaker is interesting because I think some of us want the barrier to entry when it comes to actually acquiring an exotic animal to be higher. Not necessarily price-wise, but preparation and education-wise. But I don't think anyone wants the barriers to further education to be high (always better for the existing home to improve than to rehome a bird), and I think this creates a constant tension in pet-centric communities between being welcoming and encouraging people to learn from mistakes versus really hammering home the unvarnished truth about the commitment bird caretaking requires, even when it's not what someone wants to hear. I like this forum, personally, because I think there is a good balance between users who cut right to the point and users who are a little more diplomatic-- I don't think one approach is always better than the other.

BT and similar "celebrity" bird owners are kind of an asset and a liability when it comes to sound information. As you observed, they are an asset when it comes to lowering barriers to education about all seed diets, clipping, the basics of bird behavior, etc. The mere fact that they advocate not clipping, diversified diet, and actually housing a bird in a suitably-sized enclosure has probably helped undo some of the damage that big box pet stores do every day. But that kind of social media cult of personality (influenced as it is by aesthetics and framing) can also turn individuals into a one stop shop for info with zero regulatory oversight. There are definitely bigger information literacy problems at play, here (and how the internet is shaping our information-seeking behaviors), and that's why I mentioned honest framing as being so important. The best video essayists I follow cite sources, feature special guests, and are open about their lack of expertise when necessary, and most of them are YouTubers professionally!
 

nastronaut

Moving in
Joined
9/22/21
Messages
11
Ooh-- you should definitely make a thread about beekeeping! I've done a tiny bit of hands-on volunteering and wrote a little enviro ed curriculum on swarming behavior for my MEd final project, and I would have lots of questions.

Good faith counterpoints always engender more useful conversation than an echo-chamber. Your reply did make me think about a business phrase we throw around in the library field-- "barriers to entry". How easy should it be, can it be, to learn the basics of caring for birds? Are the basics enough, or is the challenge of researching an essential part of preparation?

Being a bird caretaker is interesting because I think some of us want the barrier to entry when it comes to actually acquiring an exotic animal to be higher. Not necessarily price-wise, but preparation and education-wise. But I don't think anyone wants the barriers to further education to be high (always better for the existing home to improve than to rehome a bird), and I think this creates a constant tension in pet-centric communities between being welcoming and encouraging people to learn from mistakes versus really hammering home the unvarnished truth about the commitment bird caretaking requires, even when it's not what someone wants to hear. I like this forum, personally, because I think there is a good balance between users who cut right to the point and users who are a little more diplomatic-- I don't think one approach is always better than the other.

BT and similar "celebrity" bird owners are kind of an asset and a liability when it comes to sound information. As you observed, they are an asset when it comes to lowering barriers to education about all seed diets, clipping, the basics of bird behavior, etc. The mere fact that they advocate not clipping, diversified diet, and actually housing a bird in a suitably-sized enclosure has probably helped undo some of the damage that big box pet stores do every day. But that kind of social media cult of personality (influenced as it is by aesthetics and framing) can also turn individuals into a one stop shop for info with zero regulatory oversight. There are definitely bigger information literacy problems at play, here (and how the internet is shaping our information-seeking behaviors), and that's why I mentioned honest framing as being so important. The best video essayists I follow cite sources, feature special guests, and are open about their lack of expertise when necessary, and most of them are YouTubers professionally!
I can definitely make a thread about Beek stuff! I err more towards building my service around breeding and working towards future survivability vs honey production so a bit of a niche take.

Totally agree there's a balance between entry and furthering. Obviously the barrier to enter is way too low, commercially. I think for those who are already past that point and or already have a bird (like we see in tons of posts everyday) or they're then facing issues it can be a real struggle to the find that info in time which is where I see the pros to having BT's SEO optimized content all over the place. I also think it's a wonderful blueprint for others to bring themselves to a more broad audience, in terms of getting good info out there.

I love the idea of a trusted professional and transparency, just sometimes, to me, it can sound like a mantra when you're new because there is such a gap at times between everyone's take on husbandry and perspective. In the same sense that an ecommerce business can be a turn off for many, to others the sheer gap in knowledge and context as well as technical skills to then further knowledge, can also turn people away from engaging, digging, or finding the right info. Granted I also think the bar for entry needs to be higher for most animals and keepers.

That said I think y'all do a good job contrasting them to others more above and highlighting the pros to seeking them out.

Appreciate the dialogue and added context!
 
Last edited:
Top