Ongoing vomiting in budgie

[AussieBird]

A thread to consolidate as much as I can.
Emelia periodically has vomiting episodes. Yes, it's vomiting, not regurgitating (I'm clarifying as two vets wanted to make sure it was definitely vomit ). She's about 6yrs old too.
I took her to the vet in Jan, partially because I had a panic over behaviour changes in addition to the vomiting (potentially due to the heatwave we had at that time). At that appointment the vet looked at a fecal sample and couldn't really find anything. Em was put on a short course of metronidazole I believe it was. She picked up but not back to 100%.
For further context, Emelia was housed with Obsidian who had a lot of similar symptoms before he passed in November. So this entire time I've been thinking it is probably AGY. When I talked to the vet about that a little she didn't seem to think we could get Amphotericin B, so I wasn't entirely sure what to do.
In the meantime, while dealing with a whole massive list of other stuff with my animals and life, I've been closely monitoring her. Got up to go to work yesterday and wasn't happy with how she was and looked like she'd been vomiting a fair bit again. So I just put her in the carrier and took her with me, hoping someone would have a free chance to take another look. Thankfully one vet (different to the one who treated her in Jan), was able to actually dedicate a fair amount of time to her periodically through the day. But two crop samples were taken and gave us not much back. No bacteria, fungus, or protozoa. Red blood cells were present though.
She's been put back on Metronidazole for a longer course since it potentially helped. And is on Omeprazole and Carafate.
If anyone has advice or suggestions for if this doesn't help, I'm getting lost. For those who haven't seen me say it before, I don't have a CAV but my vets are willing to do things that are reasonable.

 

[AussieBird]

Have you tried testing for ABV/PDD?

That is a good point...
There's no AV's here and a 6hr round trip isn't exactly an option for me right now. My vets' are quite willing to work with me within reason though so I will do my own research and can bring this up next week if needed (it's the weekend now and the vet now handling her is off, I've already had to bother her with a medication question this morning so I will not be contacting her anymore. Unless extremely urgent.)
I really was convinced it was AGY, but one fecal and two crop samples later and they've been seeing basically nothing. Bacteria, fungi, or protozoan.

The reason I bring it up is because I saw a budgie on another forum that was diagnosed with it and looked similarly rough as her. I hope you guys figure it out soon. Poor baby.

PDD is notoriously hard to diagnose as they only shed the virus periodically, so even getting a negative PCR test doesn't necessarily mean they don't have it.

That being said, is she losing weight? Forgive me, I tried to catch up on the thread but I think I'm missing a couple details. If it does end up being PDD we have our own PDD expert on the forum @T. gillii that can help you.

Shifting this conversation here to help me keep track.
I'm not sure how much she weighed yesterday as the vet was dealing with her without me at times. I believe she was weighed for med doses though. Going off my memory, she feels like she has, yes. I can weigh her but she is so stress right now, I'll see how she is at meds tonight.
There's not going to be much information about this/her to find if you look

Majority of the time I like to handle things myself and I think @Shezbug was the only person I talked to about this. But I'm definitely feeling I need more help with this. Been dealing with far too many sick animals lately. Outside advice may be what I need.

 

[patchyjoon]

@T. gillii

 

[patchyjoon]

On top of the vomitting, have you noticed undigested food in her droppings at all?

 

[patchyjoon]

Shifting this conversation here to help me keep track.
I'm not sure how much she weighed yesterday as the vet was dealing with her without me at times. I believe she was weighed for med doses though. Going off my memory, she feels like she has, yes. I can weigh her but she is so stress right now, I'll see how she is at meds tonight.
There's not going to be much information about this/her to find if you look

Majority of the time I like to handle things myself and I think @Shezbug was the only person I talked to about this. But I'm definitely feeling I need more help with this. Been dealing with far too many sick animals lately. Outside advice may be what I need.

No problem, I understand. When it rains, it pours. Hoping some of the folks here can have better ideas and we can get Em back into fighting shape Just know you're never alone!! If you ever need to vent or help we're always here for you!

 

[Kassiani]

If it is AGY, and it sounds like it, why is Ampho B not available. It does have to come from a specialized compounding pharmacy. Do you have one of those nearby? A vet can send a prescription request to a compounding pharmacy.

 

[AussieBird]

On top of the vomitting, have you noticed undigested food in her droppings at all?

I haven't, but also haven't thoroughly check her cage. Vets had a look at what she did while at the clinic all day and didn't mention seeing any to me.
I believe Obsidian definitely had that.

 

[AussieBird]

If it is AGY, and it sounds like it, why is Ampho B not available. It does have to come from a specialized compounding pharmacy. Do you have one of those nearby? A vet can send a prescription request to a compounding pharmacy.

I live quite rurally. I do not think there is one near here.
I can definitely push a little more and get more information on that specifically, but the vet currently seeing her was also very hesitant to do antifungals without a solid diagnosis because of how harsh they are. There was also a mention that they do currently have an antifungal in clinic, but I forgot what specifically it was so I can't check if it would be suitable. Or even something that we could get a suitable dose out of.

I believe I have to take a couple dogs in on Wednesday so I can get together a list of questions and things to try and run by the vet then.

 

[Parront]

I don't have any solutions for you, but I will keep Emelia in my thoughts. I have an almost 11 year old Budgie, and it breaks my heart to hear what you are going thru.

 

[patchyjoon]

I haven't, but also haven't thoroughly check her cage. Vets had a look at what she did while at the clinic all day and didn't mention seeing any to me.
I believe Obsidian definitely had that.

From everything you described it definetly could be PDD. If that's the case ask your vet to do a PCR test, then get baby Em on anti-inflammatories. In the United States, the most commonly perscribed is Onsior. She then needs a strict diet of pellet only, as she cannot digest normally. PDD affects the nerves of the gastrointestinal tract, damaging them so they stop stimulating the muscles of the digestive tract... meaning food moves very slowly or not at all.

 

[T. gillii]

A thread to consolidate as much as I can.
Emelia periodically has vomiting episodes. Yes, it's vomiting, not regurgitating (I'm clarifying as two vets wanted to make sure it was definitely vomit ). She's about 6yrs old too.
I took her to the vet in Jan, partially because I had a panic over behaviour changes in addition to the vomiting (potentially due to the heatwave we had at that time). At that appointment the vet looked at a fecal sample and couldn't really find anything. Em was put on a short course of metronidazole I believe it was. She picked up but not back to 100%.
For further context, Emelia was housed with Obsidian who had a lot of similar symptoms before he passed in November. So this entire time I've been thinking it is probably AGY. When I talked to the vet about that a little she didn't seem to think we could get Amphotericin B, so I wasn't entirely sure what to do.
In the meantime, while dealing with a whole massive list of other stuff with my animals and life, I've been closely monitoring her. Got up to go to work yesterday and wasn't happy with how she was and looked like she'd been vomiting a fair bit again. So I just put her in the carrier and took her with me, hoping someone would have a free chance to take another look. Thankfully one vet (different to the one who treated her in Jan), was able to actually dedicate a fair amount of time to her periodically through the day. But two crop samples were taken and gave us not much back. No bacteria, fungus, or protozoa. Red blood cells were present though.
She's been put back on Metronidazole for a longer course since it potentially helped. And is on Omeprazole and Carafate.
If anyone has advice or suggestions for if this doesn't help, I'm getting lost. For those who haven't seen me say it before, I don't have a CAV but my vets are willing to do things that are reasonable.

From what I know about avian gastric yeast (personal experience and research) it does not culture well and often requires a specific PCR for detection. Improvement with antibiotics also supports potential secondary infection. Avian ganglioneuritis *is* possible, but it would not be my first guess. Gastric yeast can be difficult to detect. Though I do not think anti-inflammatory drugs would be harmful in the case it is PDD, however, gastric yeast is something that is commonly carried by budgies and that *is* contagious.

Regardless, soft, easily digestible foods are also key. I will see if you have ampho b available in any pet pharmacies in Aus. Ampho B is the most successful drug of choice. What territory are you in?

 

[T. gillii]

From everything you described it definetly could be PDD. If that's the case ask your vet to do a PCR test, then get baby Em on anti-inflammatories. In the United States, the most commonly perscribed is Onsior. She then needs a strict diet of pellet only, as she cannot digest normally. PDD affects the nerves of the gastrointestinal tract, damaging them so they stop stimulating the muscles of the digestive tract... meaning food moves very slowly or not at all.

PCR does not confirm, suggest, or lower the chance of PDD. It is just another marker. The anti-ganglioside test is not available in Aus, and avian bornavirus testing is unnecessary and hard to access. Diagnosis would need to be made out of exclusion of other diseases and symptoms, unfortunately.

 

[patchyjoon]

PCR does not confirm, suggest, or lower the chance of PDD. It is just another marker. The anti-ganglioside test is not available in Aus, and avian bornavirus testing is unnecessary and hard to access. Diagnosis would need to be made out of exclusion of other diseases and symptoms, unfortunately.

T.Gilli knows a lot better then me. Thanks for chiming in!!

 

[AussieBird]

From what I know about avian gastric yeast (personal experience and research) it does not culture well and often requires a specific PCR for detection. Improvement with antibiotics also supports potential secondary infection. Avian ganglioneuritis *is* possible, but it would not be my first guess. Gastric yeast can be difficult to detect. Though I do not think anti-inflammatory drugs would be harmful in the case it is PDD, however, gastric yeast is something that is commonly carried by budgies and that *is* contagious.

Regardless, soft, easily digestible foods are also key. I will see if you have ampho b available in any pet pharmacies in Aus. Ampho B is the most successful drug of choice. What territory are you in?

Thank you. I think I will try to go the AGY PCR test route, if we can. I'll keep going with her meds and either text/call the vet tomorrow or talk to her Wednesday.

Diet/food wise, I'm unsure how I'll go with that. Em has done pellet conversion no issues but she's shown no interest in them lately. Which is something Obsidian did to the extreme too. He would behave starved until fed seeds, even if there was pellets available 24/7 (he was also used to pellets and I had made zero changes). I have other stuff on hand I can try though.

I'm in NSW.

 

[Kassiani]

I live quite rurally. I do not think there is one near here.
I can definitely push a little more and get more information on that specifically, but the vet currently seeing her was also very hesitant to do antifungals without a solid diagnosis because of how harsh they are. There was also a mention that they do currently have an antifungal in clinic, but I forgot what specifically it was so I can't check if it would be suitable. Or even something that we could get a suitable dose out of.

I believe I have to take a couple dogs in on Wednesday so I can get together a list of questions and things to try and run by the vet then.

If you have a human hospital or clinic nearby, you could call someone there and ask if they have a pharmacy somewhere in the region that compounds for them. I hope that someone, somewhere will have that information!

 

[Finchbreed]

I assume that megabacteria was the 1st thing eliminated as a cause? Being that this is Aust.
You could consider a phone consultation with Dr Rob Marshall, as one of Aust's most respected bird vets - mum has used him when the locals were stumped.
Wishing you a successful outcome soon.

Off topic - have you seen the pics of the Aust National Budgie Show that has just concluded?
I have yet to find time to do so, having only returned home in the last 24hrs after 2 1/2 weeks out of IT range.

 

[AussieBird]

I assume that megabacteria was the 1st thing eliminated as a cause? Being that this is Aust.
You could consider a phone consultation with Dr Rob Marshall, as one of Aust's most respected bird vets - mum has used him when the locals were stumped.
Wishing you a successful outcome soon.

Megabacteria is AGY. Which so far, no, we have not found it but I'm going to be seeing if we can do more testing.

Off topic - have you seen the pics of the Aust National Budgie Show that has just concluded?
I have yet to find time to do so, having only returned home in the last 24hrs after 2 1/2 weeks out of IT range.

I think I've seen a photo or two.
It's not something I keep up with.

 

[AussieBird]

Diet/food wise, I'm unsure how I'll go with that. Em has done pellet conversion no issues but she's shown no interest in them lately. Which is something Obsidian did to the extreme too. He would behave starved until fed seeds, even if there was pellets available 24/7 (he was also used to pellets and I had made zero changes). I have other stuff on hand I can try though.

I actually think she's been feeling better.
Her pellets from yesterday actually looked kinda touched. So I'm keeping a close track today and if she's eating them I'll increase them and drop the amount of seeds a bit.
Her bites feel like they're getting harder too, so again, I think the meds are helping at least a bit. It's difficult to know if she's been vomiting again because before I was partially going off her face/feathers... which are now messy from medicating.

 

[AussieBird]

Em is considerably quieter and fluffier this morning...
For some reason I genuinely cannot keep track of time and I mixed up my dates about so many things. Next week is when I'll be going to the vet so I've left a message today and am waiting on a call back from the vet.

 

[AussieBird]

I am genuinely confused with absolutely everything I have been reading.
I just got off the phone with the vet before, she's going to look into some things for me, talk to the vet who usually sees my budgies and call back.
I've voiced treating for AGY with and without confirming it. She mentioned Fluconazole which I already knew is a possibly less affective treatment, and now I'm reading that that can be toxic to budgies. Ampho B sounds exactly as risky from everything I have read. Is there any treatment that is actually somewhat safe or do I really have choose which I want to risk more??