Not a 911, but these are the best pictures I could get of the thing on P.J. lower tongue

[Ariahna]

It's the black thing hanging down in the second picture.

As you can see it is way back there and hard to see. The vet thinks it might be a wart of some kind, but then she is afraid that there could be more going down his throat, so what great news huh?

 

[KimKimWilliamson]

Im sorry but I dont actually see anything...? I thought I remembered someone else fromt he forum having a similar concern, and it turned out to be a collous?

 

[Ariahna]

Hi Kim. I saw that other thread, and P.J.s growth looks very different. That other case involved something actually following the normal line on the tongue. This thing grows out away from the tongue. In that second picture, far back in his mouth, there is a black thing hanging down, that is the suspicious growth. You can't see it at all in the first picture and can only barely see it in the third. Otherwise his tongue looks very slimey and healthy

It's very hard to get a picture that deep into his mouth, I'll keep trying though.

 

[WingedVictory]

Hi, since what you are looking at does not appear to be life threatening. Buy some GSE and add 3 drops to your birds water, make sure he drinks the water as the GSE alters the taste. Add it to his water, (3 drops/cup of water), for several days and see if it has any effect on what you are seeing. Hoping for the best!

You can buy GSE at your health food store. GSE

Gary

 

[Ariahna]

Thank you Gary. When Dr. Smith (the vet that took blood from Max and P.J. yesterday) called me this morning she told me that she has already been talking to some other vets about this bump on the bottom of P.J.s tongue, and that they suspect some sort of a wart. She is concerned though that there could be more in other places we can't see. P.J. is active, and has had a stable weight for some time now, always weighing between 111-116 grams (I weigh him almost every morning). The average weight of an IRN is 115 grams.

I will go get some GSE and start adding it to his water. The blood work results on P.J. should be back on Monday. Of course I'm not sure if bacterial or fungal things would show up.

 

[65sunnyday]

Ohhhhh -- bird tongues aren't supposed to be slimey. Time to call Dr Zimmer (right name?) Maybe you can get a multiples discount if you take both birds in. Get everything done at once, & know just what you're up against with both of your beloved birds. Good luck.

 

[Ariahna]

Thanks April. I guess "slimey" was the wrong word. It's pink and wet, probably the way it is supposed to look. But when I think of it, a lot of time when he puts it on my cheek to kiss me it actually feels dry and not wet. I don't think it is anything too serious, but I would sure like to find out. Once the blood work is in, and Dr. Smith tells me what she thinks it really is, I will contact Dr. Skinner and get P.J. seen by her. It wouldn't hurt to have a second opinion, and trust me if they tell me it needs to be surgically removed, I will be looking for the best avian vet in the state (with LOTS of experience) to do the operation. Convenience and proximity to me will not even factor in.

 

[kcbee]

How long has it been there?

 

[Ariahna]

I noticed it about 2-3 weeks ago. It hasn't changed since then, but it is very hard to see. You have to be purposely looking into his mouth to see it. I've been trying to read up on things it might be. He sure doesn't act like it bothers him, but it if doesn't fall off or disappear in a few more weeks, I'll probably take him in to see an experienced avian vet about getting it removed.

 

[Marlene]

Hope it is nothing serious.

 

[Ariahna]

Here are some better pictures I managed to get today. Has anyone seen anything like this before? It doesn't seem to bother P.J. at all, he eats anything and everything, and his weight has always been stable. I don't know if the blood work that he had done would point to a cause or not.

The suspicious growth/bump thing is on the lower back side of the tongue. It looks sort of orange in these pictures.

 

[Ariahna]

Now that Max is in the clear and seems to have made a complete recovery, I've turned my worry energy to P.J. When Dr. Smith called me Friday morning to check on Max she stated that after talking with some other vets they suspect the mass at the bottom of P.J.'s tongue to be a wart. So I have been frantically trying to research warts in birds and I came across this:

Papillomatosis in Psittacine Birds - Page 1

and

http://www.petplace.com/birds/papillomas/page1.aspx

What really bothers me about this, is that the vet told me that there could be other warts that were not visible. Why not just tell me what the name of this is so I could educate myself? Also, if this is a wart caused by a virus, why was I not instructed to isolate P.J. from the other birds in the house? They do occasionally share a water or food bowl or plate, but they won't any longer. I will be extremely diligent to make sure the conures do not come into contact with any toys or food that P.J. eats and vice versa, however, it's a little late for that.

I am not sure if the blood work tests being done on P.J. will show this virus or not. It sounds like they actually have to run tests on a sample. He eats fine, but once in a while I do see him opening his mouth and stretching his tongue out sort of like he's clearing his throat. I'm going to guess that little protrusion/wart bothers him a little. I'm going to call the place I got him from. I do not know who the breeder was. I want to get that information. I also want to see if all the other IRNs they have had in that shop (some of P.J.'s clutch mates are still there) can be checked. I want the breeder to check P.J.s parents.

I will be watching Kiwi and Max closely to make sure they don't develop any of these, but I suspect P.J. got it from his parents a clutch mate, or some other bird in the shop where I got him. He was hand fed by several people there. I know I don't have HPV and I'm the only human he's been in close contact with since he came home with me, but he has been handled by a number of other people. He had his nails and wings clipped at the shop, had a feather clipped for a DNA test there as well so there are lots of ways he could have picked this up if there were infected birds there.

I found an article that said Jalepeno peppers were good to give to keep this in check, and if any of you have any experience with papillomavirus in birds, I would love to hear about it.

 

[crzybrdldy]

Ariahna parrots can sometimes get a keratin growth on their tongues, just like the sheaths on new feathers coming in.
It was on a different part of the tongue, I wish I could remember were I saw the article on this. As I am sitting here writing this I believe it was someone else here that had this issue.

My brain isn't functioning properly, maybe someone else can recall who it was, it just escapes.

Regardless, that is what it looks like to me.

 

[Ariahna]

Patty, someone linked that in another thread. Is this the thread you are thinking about: http://forums.avianavenue.com/healt...rowth-wyatts-lilac-crowned-amazon-tongue.html

If so, P.J.s looks a lot different. There is not a lot of info that comes up with a search of warts on birds but papillomas and pappilomatosis are two things and now I am really worried. Apparently in-breeding is a big cause for it. But thank you so much for the reply. This is definitely a fleshy growth, and it seems to change colors. The other day the tip looked black, recently it was pink.

 

[crzybrdldy]

Patty, someone linked that in another thread. Is this the thread you are thinking about: http://forums.avianavenue.com/healt...rowth-wyatts-lilac-crowned-amazon-tongue.html

If so, P.J.s looks a lot different. There is not a lot of info that comes up with a search of warts on birds but papillomas and pappilomatosis are two things and now I am really worried. Apparently in-breeding is a big cause for it. But thank you so much for the reply. This is definitely a fleshy growth, and it seems to change colors. The other day the tip looked black, recently it was pink.

That was the article I was thinking about.

I know it is hard not to be concerned, is your vet going to do a biopsy on it?

 

[Ariahna]

Thank you Patty. I just got off the phone with Dr. Smith, the vet that saw Max and P.J. last week. She has the blood work back and P.J's WBC is high, so are his lymphocytes, his protein is high and his heterophils are low. Also noted that slight to moderately degranulated heterophils are noted. "This heterophilic change occurs with increased levels of stress(diet, husbandry, fear, excitement or trauma) or bacterial/fungal infections (either current or resolving)."

She used the term papillomavirus and also polyoma which are two different things. Only a biopsy will tell for sure. She has been talking to a vet up at K-State named Dr. Carpenter, and that is who she recommends I see for the biopsy. Of course she also instructed me to keep P.J. isolated from the other birds which is already being done. Just what I needed, more stress and worry over my little babies, but this sounds quite serious and also sounds like a chronic condition. I just e-mailed her the pictures that I linked in this thread so that she can forward them to Dr. Carpenter.

I'm going to be called the shop where I got P.J. and Max from since that is probably where this came from, or at least other birds there have probably also been exposed.

Here's the bio for Dr. Carpenter. It looks like P.J. will be in good hands. http://www.k-state.edu/media/mediaguide/bios/carpenterbio.html

 

[itzmered]

 

[Ariahna]

Thank you Chris for the hugs. I can't begin to tell you how upset I am right now. I just got off the phone with the Parrot House in Derby, KS which is where I got both P.J. and Max. I let them know what P.J. may have. I let them know that I will be having Dr. Carpenter at K-State run all the necessary tests and biopsy the mass so we know for sure. I urged them to go check the oral cavities and the cloaca's of the birds they have in the shop, especially P.J's clutch mates and the new batch of IRNs they got in. I explained to them that this is more than likely viral which means it is easily spread by handling and common things like perches, food dishes etc., if they aren't properly sanitized with a bleach solution. Those birds are handled by multiple people there, and most do not wash their hands before putting one bird away and reaching into another cage to get a different bird. This virus is much more common in conures, and african greys and those were the most common bird in their shop when I got P.J.

I'm sick to my stomach that P.J. will be dealing with a chronic life threatening virus for the rest of his life. That he might develop liver or pancreatic cancer or tumors anywhere along his GI tract. I'm sick to my stomach thinking Max may also have it which means Kiwi was also exposed since those two swap spit from time to time in their little preening sessions. When I mentioned I wanted P.J.'s breeder to be notified, the response was "oh they do a lot of research...." I said neither of the birds I got from your store were banded. If I got another bird of the same species there would be absolutely no way to be sure the 2nd bird was not related. I just want to the breeder to know so they can check their birds and be more diligent that they are sure since no of their birds are being banded that there isn't some inbreeding going on, which is one reason to see an increase in this disease.

I never in my wildest imagination thought I would be dealing with something like this with my first birds, bought from a specialty shop to which I have referred other people.

 

[Ariahna]

You probably won't see much of me on this board. I'm so heart broken and depressed, I just don't even know what to say. I'll do my best to care for these guys but there is no cure for this virus.

 

[kcbee]

I know you are scared, but try to stay calm until you meet with the other doctor and have the tests run. We are all here for you