Mating?! Inbreeding! Or just standing? Please help, moderately urgent (not very urgent as we are unsure of what we saw.)

[Tiel Feathers]

I think you have received some good advice about egg laying and supplements already, but I just wanted to say that you might want to separate them if Lemony is always trying to get away from Kiwi. My cockatiel, Sunset, is a bit fearful of most birds, and when my bird Twilight was alive I had to cage them separately because he was so pesky towards her, and she was so irritated and stressed. She’s much happier in a cage of her own, and Twilight was fine being in his own cage near hers. I think if she’s being pestered you should separate them once your new cage comes.

 

[LunaLovebird]

@Zara i will try veggies again, I can mash and warm pellets as that worked in the past however I stoped almost as soon as I started in fear of promoting mating and regurgitating.

A better diet is far more important than the possibility you might get eggs. Mating and egg laying is a thing that happens when you have hens, and it can be dangerous, but more often it goes fine. You seem to be paying very close attention to the situation, so just keep doing what you're doing and try your best to change their eating habits in the mean time. Mating doesn't always mean egg laying either, so you might be fine.

 

[KiwiandLemony]

@Tiel Feathers I had made a decision but with this response and analysis of the situation again in combination with other behaviour is telling me to separate them, there is the fear of mating but Kiwi is constantly bothering Lemony and it’s more annoying to her than stressful, but I fear that this may change over time into more aggressive behaviour hurting Lemony‘s -who’s already quite skittish and fearful- fear towards other birds, that fear may negatively impact her while they are interacting outside and inside the cage.

I will be separating them, despite other perspectives and opinions based on my observations, research and analysis it is appropriate and will be the better decision long term even if there is some stress to begin- this will be minor and a very very short period of time as they aren’t as bonded as much as it seems.

 

[KiwiandLemony]

@LunaLovebird I wholeheartedly agree, a stated in a previous post I will separate them, the risk of not abosorbing their nutrients from regurgitation is mitigated from this, and the hens egg laying is again mitigated from additional supplements and a good diet. I will also do what I said I would do previously to reduce the risk of egg laying in the first place. After all of these steps on the off chance an egg is layed I will boil it as it is the most humane way to do this (siblings so the same gene pool Would be drawn from it they were to hatch an egg resulting in deformity and health issues.)

 

[finchly]

Your hen could possibly lay eggs (lots) even without breeding. I use a calcium supplement with D3 and magnesium, additionally I use a multivitamin every so often.
We do have cuttlebone in every cage but calcium is a bit difficult for them to absorb from that, despite its popularity.

Here is a link with several options.

Calcium Supplements for Gouldian Finches and other cage birds

Calcium Supplements for Cage Birds, finches, canaries

glamgouldians.com

 

[KiwiandLemony]

@finchly thank you I had no idea of the difference between vitamin blocks and calcium ones! I’ll be getting a calcium supplement from zoo med on amazon, I’ll see if my local bird store has a combination with vitamin D3 otherwise (couldnt find one on amazon and am reluctant to go to the bird store as they treat birds horribly, have the most illogical and irritating boarding requirements and cost about 4 times the price as everywhere else) and they have ALOT of natural light so that’s not a very big issue.

 

[Monica]

Unless they live outside, they aren't getting the beneficial rays from the sun since the windows block out a bunch of the UV that birds use to help create vitamin D.

Even though they may be on a sub-par diet, it is rare for a hen to have egg laying issues due to lack of calcium in the diet. I am not implying she shouldn't receive extra calcium however, if she lays an egg(s), she will *most likely* be fine. First time laying an egg, if she is in fact a hen, you might even see blood. That's normal!


I'm saying this as I have taken in older hens on seed diets. Hens that aren't as healthy as your tiels are due to neglect over the years. I've never had an issue! Although I was able to convert them to eating healthier over time! One hen even died *with* egg in her, but vet and I both agree, it wasn't the egg that took her life. Vet didn't believe me that she had an egg (considering how sick she was) and had to actually check. The tiel had cancer, and that's what we believe took her life.

Having flight and being able to exercise those wings may also help to prevent egg laying issues.


Please take another look at this thread.

Converting Parrots to a Healthier Diet - Tips

A healthy parrot starts with a healthy diet. Although the perfect diet is controversial, many parrot enthusiasts and experts agree on one thing; a seed only diet is a diet that is lacking in essential nutrients, vitamins and minerals. Studies have shown that adding fresh foods and pellets to a...

forums.avianavenue.com

 

[KiwiandLemony]

@Monica thank you. I had done all of this research before I got my birds but I had never come across a resource like this with everything all in one page and with so much detail. I’ve already tried ingenuity, pellet mash, sprouts, pellet seed mash mix, veggies, and a chop but without the information outside of these techniques I would have never known how to go about switching them to a far better diet. This just goes to show how inexperienced I am -but hey that’s okay, I am doing my research, I am trying my best, and asking for help from those who are more knowledgeable here, right?- I will look at my local bird store on Monday (it Is closed from today to monday) for a d3 supplement with calcium and a regular mineral block.


thank you,
Kiwi and Lemony.

 

[KiwiandLemony]

I for sure saw them mating again, I will be separating them (reasoning stated previously), reducing daylight hours, changing their diet, giving them enough to eat but not an over abundance, removing potential nest building material and sites. In the mean time I won’t be able to separate them until December 4th due to shipping times and delays for the long weekend. They are mating daily if not more and their cage is like a giant nest box when covered. We will be calling a vet tomorrow and boiling the eggs as they are siblings and if we were to not boil them then it’s pulling from the same gene pool resulting in death and deformity of the baby.To summarize we are discouraging mating for the future and know how to handle eggs, the main concern is that the hen will not be safe laying however many eggs she will lay. I am currently researching this and can see if I can get in contact with a breeder or veterinarian to see what they have to say but whilst I do so can anyone here please let me know how you keep a hen safe when she is carrying eggs with a potential calcium deficiency? We will be getting mineral block and calcium with magnesium and d3 supplements for the hen but that may not be soon enough to save her from her early first few eggs- I.e egg binding and such. Please if you have any advice let me know so how I can keep Lemony (hen) safe.

Thank you.
Kiwi and Lemony

 

[Zara]

Just because your hen is not on the best diet right now, it does not mean that 100% she is deficient in calcium and will end up egg bound.

Just the same, siblings having chicks would not result in death, and chance of deformaty wouldn´t be high. Not that I agree with it. Just remember that line breeding is very common to atain certain mutations. You already said you are going to boil any eggs.... so forget about siblings offspring, because it won´t happen if you do your bit and boil the eggs.

I think you are overthinking this all a bit much and it is causing you to worry. It is good to be concerned about the welfare of our birds, but worrying won´t help anyone. I hope you understand what I´m saying

Is your hen flighted? Exercise is really good for her to avoid problems related to laying.

I would also like to point out that you have two happy birds who have a good sex life that you are about to put the spanner in. This will result in two frustrated birds who will need to figure out how to get that release of tension again.
@Monica Would a non bonded pair mate daily? I´m wondering if these are indeed two bonded birds but the ¨fighting¨ is actually just bickering.

 

[KiwiandLemony]

Just because your hen is not on the best diet right now, it does not mean that 100% she is deficient in calcium and will end up egg bound.

Just the same, siblings having chicks would not result in death, and chance of deformaty wouldn´t be high. Not that I agree with it. Just remember that line breeding is very common to atain certain mutations. You already said you are going to boil any eggs.... so forget about siblings offspring, because it won´t happen if you do your bit and boil the eggs.

I think you are overthinking this all a bit much and it is causing you to worry. It is good to be concerned about the welfare of our birds, but worrying won´t help anyone. I hope you understand what I´m saying

Is your hen flighted? Exercise is really good for her to avoid problems related to laying.

I would also like to point out that you have two happy birds who have a good sex life that you are about to put the spanner in. This will result in two frustrated birds who will need to figure out how to get that release of tension again.
@Monica Would a non bonded pair mate daily? I´m wondering if these are indeed two bonded birds but the ¨fighting¨ is actually just bickering.

Both birds are fully flighted. The fighting has been fairly bad in the past, Kiwi has lunged at Lemony and attacked her feet a few times but those were few and far apart so we shrugged it off- in retrospect that could have gotten far worse and we are lucky it didn’t. The mating was 2 days in a row and before that a week apart, but with work and school schedule they have 4 hours total in the cage unsupervised making it hard to say if it indeed is daily or not. Anthropomorphism just makes it wrong and gross on top of that being inexperienced accompanied by issues with diet make it a situation we really are not ready to deal with. The birds also don’t show other signs of being bonded such as very limited contact calling
And pecking at each other. Though there is preening each other, scratching heads and singing they generally aren’t stressed when separated and this is really the only time Lemony really exhibits her most calm behaviors - suggesting they are not bonded and would benefit from being separated similarly to what @Tiel Feathers ] had said about her cockatiel twilight.

 

[rocky'smom]

@KiwiandLemony my name popped up in the alert, sorry, I'm not seeing what,you asked please repeat with my name

 

[KiwiandLemony]

@rocky'smom apologies I typed in your name by mistake rather than another member I edited it back to what it should have been explaining why you got the alert and then didn’t get the message. Again sorry.

 

[Monica]

@Zara I think it may be hard to say. I've heard of birds who have never met before immediately starting to mate the day they met and others who wouldn't mate for several years and all of a sudden they start mating. Birds who may not be 'truly bonded' may still mate, but I can't say how often.

 

[KiwiandLemony]

Just a quick update- we saw separating them as an urgent matter not due to mating as we know what to do in the situation if it does arise, but rather becuase Of more extreme fighting and constant annoyance to Lemony resulting in her stress and such. I have also found two AAV vets that a family member will be able to call today. We have put in a temporary partition until the 4th when The new cage arrives. They have a very large cage so splitting it makes two adequately sized cages for a single cockatie.

 

[finchly]

Good thinking! I agree, fighting can mean a separation is needed.

 

[KiwiandLemony]

Things are looking great! Lemony doesn’t seem to be preparing for an egg (although it’s okay if she is, we know what to do), they are having better interaction outside the cage, and were not very stressed being separated yesterday! In addition the new cage is coming early and we can set it up meaning we can separate them by tomorrow.

 

[KiwiandLemony]

okay, it took all day but, the cages are ready and both birds are loving it! Kiwi seems to be neutral about it the separation but happy nonetheless- LOTS of singing and preening. Lemony Seems to be the happiest she’s been in a long time, with no fighting with kiwi she has total control over the cage, she’s been swinging and playing like crazy for the past hour!

...........​

Thank goodness for plastic chains! Lemony is having an absolute blast just playing with them, she seems to be more excited about them than the toys they‘re attached to! I’ve always had issues with the D ring length and being Limited by the toys length so the birds could reach them from their perches- not anymore! Plastic rings are magic and the best invention ever.

 

[Tiel Feathers]

I’m so glad that they like their new cages! It’s wonderful to hear that Lemony is so happy now. I really do think that many birds are happiest when caged alone.

 

[finchly]

I’m so glad that they like their new cages! It’s wonderful to hear that Lemony is so happy now. I really do think that many birds are happiest when caged alone.

I’m happiest caged alone.