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I need some advice about pellets

Britnicorn

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So Phoenix has been doing amazing with his pellets. Just a couple of weeks ago he would only eat one or two at a time, and now he'll eat a whole meal of them
-Phoenix is a little bit of an oddball because he doesn't graze throughout the day as most birds do, he eats meals probably about 4-5 times a day. I think it might be because that's how I hand-fed him, so he never learned to graze... either way, he has access to food 24/7 so it's not an issue on what he wants to do I don't think

If it were just Phoenix in the cage, I would be confident in removing seeds completely and only letting him have them at night. Now that Raiju is sharing the cage with him, though, I can't do that. I don't think Raiju has been touching the pellets at all, but it's hard to tell since they don't leave evidence of being eaten like seeds do
I think Phoenix is currently eating easily half his diet in seeds still since he has access to them all the time through Raiju. The other half is his chop and pellets... there's a possibility that he eats more pellets than seeds, though, because I've watched him eat pellets when the bowl of seeds was right next to him

I'm getting worried about his weight, he hasn't gained any in over a month (he gained a bit over a few weeks but it's stopped, I think it might just be his adult weight... he went from 37.5g to 39.5g), but I still know that seeds can cause fatty liver and other problems, even if I fix the seed thing eventually it could still affect him in the future... his extra-large crop might be causing him to weigh more too, I'm just not sure.
I'm not concerned about Raiju's weight at all, I'm actually surprised at how lean he is because he can't fly to work it off. I still would like to get him on a healthier diet, though. I haven't been able to get a weight on Raiju, but he's definitely not overweight. He does usually eat his chop, easily 2-3 teaspoons of it a day
I have no clue what to do. I can't exactly speed up the process for Raiju, it's only been a little over a month while Phoenix had several.
Currently, I have pellets mixed in Raiju's bowl and a separate bowl of pellets. I replace the seed/pellet mix with just plain pellets for an hour every morning, but Raiju doesn't even look at the bowl when there are only pellets in there. I've tried mixing pellets into the chop, but that makes Raiju not touch the chop so I still only mix the mashed pellets in.

I thought Raiju would have started eating pellets by now after watching Phoenix, but Phoenix mostly eats pellets outside of the cage(there is a bowl of pellets I fill up every day for Phoenix outside the cage, I also scatter some around so he can feel like he's foraging) and Raiju doesn't come outside a lot.

Any advice? Or is it just a waiting game at this point?
 

Wardy

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Transitioning onto pellets can take a long time for some birds so persistance is the key. Raiju may just not like the pellets you are offering and pheonix does another pellet option might work but then again it might not.
Dont give up and keep on offering pellets when i transitioned Mojo her seed was under the pellets so at the very least she had to go through the pellets to get to the seed.

@Ripshod will be able to advise on your birds weight.
 

Ripshod

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@Wardy's right. It can take a long time to get a budgie to eat anything new. The advantage with Phoenix was you was there as his parent and taught him that pellets are a good food source. Raiju likely never had that, so you'll need to rely on his own natural curiosity and learning from Phoenix - budgie see budgie do.
The weight difference is down to the exercise they can get. Raiju can't fly so he hasn't built up those flight muscles yet. Whereas Phoenix gets plenty of exercise so he has a much greater muscle mass. He is in the high range of what's expected but I don't think he's overweight.
Take a look at the seed mix you're using, try and find the % fat content. If you shop around you'll see how much variance there is, and how much control you actually have.
Look at protein as well. When Raiju starts dropping his clipped flights he'll benefit from higher protein to help grow new feathers and give him a reserve to help build his flight muscles. When they're both flying together I'm sure you'll see their weights get closer.
Watch the pellets too. Phoenix being flighted and highly active shouldn't be eating more than 35% pellets. Raiju no more the 25%. These are just targets, ±5% should be fine.
 

Britnicorn

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her seed was under the pellets
Ooo that’s a good idea, I’ll have to try that. I’ve just been mixing it completely

Take a look at the seed mix you're using, try and find the % fat content.
The % fat on their seed mix is 3% but they both only eat two of the seeds in the mix- I think it’s the Canary grass seed and the white milo. I never see hulls of anything else
Look at protein as well.
I give them both a bit of hard boiled egg about every week, is that okay?

Watch the pellets too.
They both have access to pellets 24/7 but Phoenix mostly eats chop- I’m not sure about Raijū since he mostly eats when I’m not looking but he always finishes his chop (and I know it’s him eating it for sure)
Should I limit how many pellets they get? I always let them have free reign on pellets :faint:
 

GreenThing

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@Ripshod @Britnicorn

Following this because I'm trying all kinds of things to get Merlin to eat an atom of veg (finally sprouting this week)-- but you mentioned weight gain. Should budgies be consistently gaining weight until a certain age? Merlin has gone from 25 to 31g since I got him, and I thought that was because it was my fault he was underweight from a few days of too little food. I didn't think he would gain much more from juvenile to adult, and that's one of the reasons I have cut back on his daily seed portion (from 3 tsp to 2tsp and recently to 1 1/2-- when I am home all day and can offer various veggies observe if he's eating anything else)... the biggest reason is that he only ONLY seems to eat pellets and try new things when he is hungry and has checked every place he usually finds seeds.

I don't know if it's correct, but I took Ripshod and other's suggested 25/25/50 proportions pretty literally and base the amount of pellet I leave in the cage on how many seeds I'm providing. He only eats maybe three or four pellets a day, but that way I know he can't get more than 25%, even if he decided to eat them all. He does go a good 5+ hours with pellets as the only food in his cage.

Tonight we played a fun game where whenever he flock called for more seeds, I offered a pellet, then he would take the pellet, turn it over in his beak like a seed being hulled, and then scoot back and forth trying to drop it somewhere I couldn't catch it. :shifty:
 

Britnicorn

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I'm not sure about budgies gaining weight as they enter adulthood, that was just my guess (I know I gained some weight when I entered adulthood :roflmao: ) How long did it take for Merlin to get to 31g? if they gain (or lose) more than 10% of their body weight in a week then it's concerning

I'm pretty sure 31g is on the lower side of budgie weights, everything I've heard says they should be 30-40g.. I think Merlin is fine, he was likely gaining healthy weight back


Is Merlin close to you? I got Phoenix to eat new foods by eating them myself in front of him (yes even pellets) I'd make it look delicious so he'd want to steal it from me :lol:

Raiju was a little harder, veggie-wise, because he didn't trust me at all.. I was able to get him to start eating veggies by leaving finely diced veggies (I put them through a food processor) on a platform perch that was right next to his seed dish, he was forced to walk over the veggies to get to the seeds so it would encourage him to at least look at them... I only started with one veggie at a time, I started with broccoli because they're the closest to seeds I think. It took about a month of consistently having them in the cage with him (I'd get a fresh batch about every 3 hours) before he started eating them
I also had to leave the room for him to eat the veggies-now he doesn't care if I'm in the room but I can't look at him :roflmao:
After he was consistently eating the broccoli, I started putting two veggies in there, once he started eating that he got three, etc. But every time I make a new chop now I'm sure to put broccoli in there so there's something familiar

Even Phoenix plays that game with me sometimes! :lol:I'll often hand him pellets and he'll throw it... he never turns down a seed though :roflmao:

I don't really measure the food I give them but I probably should :faint: I've always just eyeballed it
 

Ripshod

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The % fat on their seed mix is 3%
That is very low. What seed mix are you using? As an example ZuPreem Smart Selects are around 12%
I give them both a bit of hard boiled egg about every week, is that okay?
No problem with that but reducing that is also a good way to control weight.
Merlin has gone from 25 to 31g since I got him, and I thought that was because it was my fault
He only eats maybe three or four pellets a day, but that way I know he can't get more than 25%, even if he decided to eat them all. He does go a good 5+ hours with pellets as the only food in his cage.
I may get flamed for this but there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. They don't always have access to seed in the wild. Merlin knows pellets are food so he's hardly going to starve himself.
Over a year a wild budgie's weight will commonly vary by up to 7 grams.
I have the luxury of a larger flock. While each bird has their own favourites I can judge how much of what they've eaten at the end of the day by eye. For example, with the hot weather recently they've eaten a load more chop often cleaning the dish and calling for more. Next week they may want more seed. I work their diet over a month rather than weekly or daily. I used to measure and weigh portions - there's no need to get scientific, the eye is good enough. If Merlin is gaining weight then reduce the seed fat‰ or the amount of seed and push the chop whilst keeping an eye on the pellets.
 
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GreenThing

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How long did it take for Merlin to get to 31g? if they gain (or lose) more than 10% of their body weight in a week then it's concerning
Let's see... my first freak out on this forum was 6/1/21, ahaha, which meant I had him on the scale that week, so it's been a gradual but steady increase of 6 grams over 8 weeks. That's less that one gram per week, so he should be good.

I based the amount of seed on how much he was leaving in his bowl uneaten after two hours. Probably unwisely, for the first week or two I also used his flock calling as an indicator that he needed more seeds (after I realized that all the calling those first few days meant "I'M HUNGRY", I felt so guilty). Now that I have a very untamed budgie in the other room, it is absolutely hilarious to realize that Merlin was VERY tame from the get-go, and associated humans with "source of food and attention". He was literally running back and forth on my bed to tell me he needed more food!

The obvious problem (even though I only did this once or twice) with adding more seeds to his bowl in response to his continued calling is that I sent the message that calling = more seeds. He learned to kiss my nose in less that 15 minutes and now will literally run to the edge of his outside perch and BAP BAP BAP my nose if I'm a bit late from work (even though I never give a treat for unprompted tricks, no matter how cute, HE STILL TRIES IT). I have to duck out of the way, now! And he's still leaning his little neck up to get me!! :dead:

This weekend I reduced his seed in the morning (NOT at night, since I figure he needed more to get through that 10 hour fast) and, every time he flock called, I was there with a napkin full of veggies eating them and offered him some (I did this for like, 45 minutes). I tried with pellets, too, and that's when the hilarious pellet game started. He actually chewed up yellow squash for the first time yesterday, but treated it like toilet paper or balsa-- plucked off a bit, rolled it into a little nubbin with his tongue and then flicked it away.

He will definitely run over to look at and/or taste whatever I'm eating when I do the "YUM WOW SO GOOD" routine (except fruit, he looked truly offended), but every time he puts his beak on a vegetable-- broccoli, squash, sweet potato, cucumber, green bean, peas, green bell pepper, yellow pepper, red pepper, dried veg, with seeds and without seeds, singular and as chop, chopped by hand, chopped by food processor, pureed, sliced thin, sliced thick-- he will immediately do a little head flick like he's trying to get even the taste out of his mouth. Last night is the literal first time his little beak has actually pierced a veggie, he usually just mouths it delicately.

I used to try offering veggies before breakfast or dinner, but he'd get mad and turn his back on me and tsssk tsssk tsssk! Now I only try after he's had a serving of seeds (even a small one)-- I don't want him to feel food insecure or confused about why I won't feed him, now that he expects two meals around the same time each day. I read that you took seeds out and tried veggies first for a few hours, but when I tried that he literally looked into the bowl (from a high perch, like it wasn't even worth coming down closer to look), saw there were no seeds, and turned his back on me! The only veg in his cage he's ever investigated on his own is romaine lettuce-- he took two teensy diamond-sized bites out of one leaf. One time. And I do keep putting it in!

By the way he plays with them, it genuinely seems like he does not believe vegetables are food? I think the breeder always presented chop with seeds mixed in after/while he was weaning, and I wonder if that told his little brain that chop is the stuff you have to extract seeds from. I've had to teach him to keep looking for seeds when it takes a little work, too! I have to get my fingertips in there and flip things over and push them around to convince him to keep looking. This morning I pressed his seeds into both sides of a squash slice... he ate them all off one side and then started calling me, like, "MOM THEY ARE GONE ALREADY", and I had to poke at the squash until he realized there were more underneath.

Pellets, though... for whatever reason, the very first Harrison's pellet I ate (yes, I eat them too, and they taste much better than Roudybush to ME), he copied me and will eat them ever since. I was a bit worried he was just chewing them into dust, but I've stared at his tiny face when I catch him at the little ramekin I put pellets in, and I don't see powder falling out. I think it helped that, for a few weeks, I added 25% pellets ground to dust to his chop + seeds. It would re-congeal into soft little nubbins, and I think that must have tasted more like food to him than veggies. If I ignore his "more seeds plz" flock calls a few times, he will always go to the pellet bowl as his next step.

I could be doing something wrong, but... I kind of... genuinely think he's just a smart, stubborn little bugger ... :roflmao: Sorry I wrote an essay in your post!

Really crossing my fingers that sprouts are the missing link! Meanwhile, Percival does not recognize spray millet as edible :eek: and has already tried pureed chop. :dead:
 

Lady Jane

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Have you tried mixing pellets and seed together? I did this most of the time. Give birdie bread a try again too.
 

GreenThing

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I may get flamed for this but there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. They don't always have access to seed in the wild. Merlin knows pellets are food so he's hardly going to starve himself.
Over a year a wild budgie's weight will commonly vary by up to 7 grams.
I have the luxury of a larger flock. While each bird has their own favourites I can judge how much of what they've eaten at the end of the day by eye. For example, with the hot weather recently they've eaten a load more chop often cleaning the dish and calling for more. Next week they may want more seed. I work their diet over a month rather than weekly or daily. I used to measure and weigh portions - there's no need to get scientific, the eye is good enough. If Merlin is gaining weight then reduce the seed fat‰ or the amount of seed and push the chop whilst keeping an eye on the pellets.
Nothing about his droppings or weight or activity levels or behavior made it seem like portioning seeds was hurting him, but I admit that seeing so many posts (not just here, there is actually a lot more mentioning of portioning here) characterizing anything less that free access to seeds as abusive or dangerous with their fast metabolisms (I am reading what studies I can find on budgie basal metabolic rate and energy needs, and they all seem to estimate Kcal needs daily, not hourly) made me worry, so hearing you say so is a relief.

He only picks white millet, red millet, and canary grass seed (last is the fattiest, I think) out of Dr. Harvey's (leaves all of the other fancy ingredients), so I might as well sprout Hagen's, which I think is those three plus oat groats (if he eats sprouts I guess I could just serve all sprouts all the time). I will keep a close eye!
 
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