How to Teach Step Up

[CheckeredTail]

Hi everyone! I'm not new to birds, but I am new to Pionus and (mostly) new to this forum. About a week ago we got a young (14 weeks old) female Maxi Pionus who we've named Toro. She's still getting settled in, but she's eating and drinking comfortably. My previous parrot experience was with parrotlets, who were very high energy and who had already learned how to step up when I got them. Toro is so unlike any other bird I've interacted with! She's so reserved and quiet.

She is clearly not afraid of human hands, we were told she was hand fed, and she'll take food from my palm or from pinched my fingers even if I get them within an inch of her, we're easily able to reach into her cage to clean and switch food and water out without her showing fear or running away from our hands. However whenever we try to press our hand into her lower chest to get her to step up onto our hand, she will just let go off the branch and flutter backwards or turn around and climb away.

I've tried enticing her to move closer or step onto my hand using yummy incentives like millet, sunflower seeds, or apple and holding them farther away so she has to step onto my hand to reach it, but she snubs this and just stands there like a statue. She rarely even reaches for them at all and just stares or paces a bit. She seems to really know she can completely outlast me and just shows no interest. She won't even climb to a lower perch to come get a treat, she just stays up on her highest perch and watches me sitting there holding out the food looking silly.

Many folks suggest to use food rewards to get them to learn and I'm not sure if I'm just doing it wrong, she hates food, doesn't understand or if Pionus just take a very long time? Or maybe I'm giving her too much leeway and giving up too soon? She is a really sweet and gentle bird, and I don't want to push her too hard. I'm having a lot of trouble learning the pace for a bird like this, Curtis (my parrotlet) had so much lively energy, he was always running around and wanting to be played with. It seemed easy to train him because he was so interested in everything we were doing.

She spends lot of her time sitting still and watching us. I really hate that she's basically having to sit cooped up in her cage all the time because I can't coax her to come out onto my hand to let her explore her play gym or other areas. She is still a very clumsy flyer, and the few times she's managed to come out (once for the vet, and once after coming home from the vet) she has fluttered wildly into the walls and ended up scared on the floor, and we had to pick her up awkwardly in a bundle and get bites because she refuses to perch on anything we offer. I want her to learn we're a safe perch so that we can gently pick her up without all the fear on both sides.

I know that the breeder suggested putting my thumb around onto her toes when she stepped on to force her to stay and I don't know if that's affecting her and making her afraid to be grabbed? Or if i should just start doing that because it's normal? One of her toenails is crooked and I'm wondering if she might have been grabbed like that once and hurt her toe? so now she's distrustful of stepping onto hands? I can't tell.

Any advice for how to teach this young lady how to step up? We really want to give her out of cage time and build up more trust as soon as we can, but we also don't want her to become traumatized of being interacted with. We're trying to go at her own pace without depriving her of interaction. Despite being so much bigger than parrotlets, she seems so delicate and sensitive. I just really want to have a good, relationships built on trust, not on being forceful. Thanks for any advice from you Pionus folks, I knew going in that Pionus were more reserved I just am surprised by how much I'm struggling to engage her.

 

[Irishj9]

I got mine to step up by offering a treat and placing my hand out of reach.

Only accessible by stepping up in the other hand.

They then quickly lose the fear of hands

 

[LSA]

I get to do this, again!
Sherman Sherman Sherman
I love Sherman !
Sherman IS the best!

Okay, now that I've driven everyone crazy, I'll tell you what I've learned.

Full disclosure, Sherman is my first Pionus and can't fly, is missing nails on one foot and was hit regularly by her previous owner. The members here have helped me through her injuries, falling, eating and trust issues. She has only lived with me three months, but we have made amazing strides in this short time. She is very protective of her things and now me.

A Pionus loves staring at you. Sherman would rather stare at me than take a treat from me. I have conures that make quick strides and learn to trust me quickly whereas she is taking her time. (My BCC hasn't even been here a week and already trusts me.) Pay close attention to Toro's body language, please. Patience and consistency seem to be the keys. Don't give up too soon.

At first Sherman seemed uninterested in treats and then we discovered apples and almonds. I offered her distant treat to help her not be afraid people and hands. For us this was an almond sliver through the bars. After she finally agreed that was okay, I offered her a treat through an open door. When she finally decided I wasn't going to hurt her, Sherman leaned over and got the almond slice. But it took time!

We haven't gotten to the point of stepping up. Even so, finding the appropriate treat seemed to be the key! Toro is more food- oriented than you may realize. For us and assumedly you, the trick was finding the right foods!

This is the method that is working for me, I can only assume your experience will be similar but sped up. There are obviously other issues going on with Sherman.

@Eloy is a Pionus owner with great advice and experience.

Now, because I can
Sherman Sherman Sherman
I love Sherman !

 

[Begone]

She needs time to settle in. And she don't trust you, work on that instead.
Pionus are very sensitive birds that can take a very long time for settling in. And now we are talking about months.

Never handle her when she is in her cage, that is a big No No. The cage is hers, she needs a place where she can feel that she is safe, and with you reaching in, you are taking away that place, and that will make her feel even more unsure then before.
And if you continue doing this she will be cage aggressive. They are famous for that.
I have always respected my girls safe place, and therefor they isn't cage aggressive.
Respect her, no demands at all, talk sweet to her, give her some treats that you place in her bowl so she will see it.
I suggest you trying with sunflower seeds, walnuts, almonds and hemp seed. That is my girls favorite.

And "Step Up".. Why?
I never train that, and I do trick train them, (and they love it, my girls are very active) but a step up isn't important. I think it's better that they learn independence and therefor they should leave the cage on their own.
For me a step up (if you must do it) should always be voluntary, and that is the same with all other things. They should not be forced to do anything, that will never create a strong trusting bond.
I also use positive reinforcement when I train mine, I never tell when it's wrong, only reward when it's right. And also rewards when it's wrong if the training is going in the right direction.
When I want any of my girls to be with me I just call them, saying hand or shoulder and they will fly to me. But that will always be voluntary, so if they don't want (but they often do) I respect that. They are not machines, they are my family and my best friends.

New birds I never touch if they don't asking for it. First I want them to trust me. They should feel safe on my shoulder (yes I allowed mine their) and safe coming out of their cage without someone trying to hold or touch them.
Things that I do find important to learn them is, to get in a carrier, to going in the bathroom for a bath, to stepping up on scale so I can weigh them, and other things like that.

I know that the breeder suggested putting my thumb around onto her toes when she stepped on to force her to stay and I don't know if that's affecting her and making her afraid to be grabbed?

That makes me really sad to read. No please don't do that! That will never create a trusting bond.

One of her toenails is crooked and I'm wondering if she might have been grabbed like that once and hurt her toe? so now she's distrustful of stepping onto hands?

I can be so, but ones she is trusting you that wouldn't be a problem.
If you give her time and create that trusting bond, you can later do anything you want to her. It is that easy!

About a week ago we got a young (14 weeks old) female Maxi Pionus who we've named Toro.

I would love to see a pic (or two) of her.
And congrats! Female Maxis is the best!

I love Sherman !

Yes we know that!

 

[CheckeredTail]

Well I have great news already! Today she was showing a lot of interest in coming out, standing next to the door, and leaning her head out the door after we open it, trying to come out, but she was having trouble finding a way to grip the wall of the cage and climb out. When we offered her a stick as a perch to give her a place to step to she was very eager to step onto it and get to see the top of her cage playgym for the first time! She was super curious, and when she eventually needed to come back down she was willing to step onto the stick! I'm so happy and I think we'll be able to make a lot of progress from here to help her have space to explore!

That makes me really sad to read. No please don't do that! That will never create a trusting bond.

I totally felt the same way! That's why I didn't want to do that to her and I haven't. I want her to hang around on me only because she wants to, not being forced to. I'm so relieved to hear that it's just gonna take more time than I'm used to. And now that we have the stick option I'm no longer worried she won't be able to be taken out to get out of cage time. Or be unable to be picked up safely after a fall (she is still super clumsy when she flies!) or take her out in case of emergency. As for a picture I have one from after our first vet visit, still in her travel pack! Still with her lil red baby face. Sorry my phone flipped the image!

Thanks for all the advice and I'm so happy to know that it just takes more time. I'll keep your words in mind.

 

[Begone]

She is so cute!
And great update.
If you just take it slow you will see that she soon will be more and more active, and ones you have that trusting bond you will not regret all patience you had.

 

[LSA]

Patience is the key to Pionus! They're not in a hurry and don't like a lot of change too fast.
Often I've referred to mine as the autistic flockmate.

 

[CheckeredTail]

Thank you! I'm trying to find a good mix of giving her attention/time mixed with giving her patience and space. I think it's just a huge difference in balance from our parrotlet Curtis, who wanted attention 24/7! So it's just about getting used to her pace.

 

[LSA]

My GCC "helps" me put birds to bed, but it really upsets my Pionus, so he doesn't go in. He's always moving; she's definitely not.

 

[hedylarue]

Definitely think the stick training is a great idea. My rescued Pi hates my hands and is super cage territorial but will step onto a perch. He doesn't mind my husband's hands but he will bite the %$%& out of me so I always use a stick. Once he's sitting on my desk he'll ask for a head scratch and is sweet.

I also have p'lets and had a GCC previously and one thing I'll say is that a Pi is totally different. I think if you are used to rambunctious, cuddly birds it's a bit of an adjustment. After having my guy for a year though, I'm ultimately so happy with his laid back style. Kody has good and bad days but he's easy to read and overall he is such a great guy. I think the key is to let the Pi be a Pi, respect their ways and you'll fall in love. They really love just sitting and being with you. Also Kody LOVES spray baths, fruit and watching TV. You'll adjust to the pace....and probably come to enjoy it!

Pis will watch you and love you even when you don't realize it. Even when Kody seems to be doing his own thing, he is ALWAYS aware of where I am. He may not always want me to touch him, but he wants me there and calls for me if I leave the room. It took me a little time to realize he really loves and relies on me....just in a less anxiety ridden, co-dependent way than some other birds.

 

[LSA]

I, among others, regularly re-read THE PRACTICAL PIONUS. It might be at your local library.
That book was suggested to me as a first time pionus owner. It taught me alot! I'd only had super-noisy, super-active birds previously and this book along with many AA members taught me to slow done and enjoy her.

 

[hedylarue]

@LSA I laughed when you said Sherman loves to stare at you...classic Pi. Even when you think they aren't paying attention to you, you turn around and there's that big eye studying your every move! Kody stares at me all day....he's staring at me right now....

 

[LSA]

@hedylarue, one of my favorite parts of that book is when he looked through his "well-hidden" camera and saw a big eye staring at him. People don't realize that those big eyes see everything!

 

[CheckeredTail]

Yeah she's like a statue sometimes haha a very judgmental statue. I will say it's been fascinating to see her watching us intently and if I sneak a glance when she thinks we're not there, watching her do goofy stuff like go for the fresh fruit we leave for her the second I turn my back.

 

[finchly]

Yeah she's like a statue sometimes haha a very judgmental statue. I will say it's been fascinating to see her watching us intently and if I sneak a glance when she thinks we're not there, watching her do goofy stuff like go for the fresh fruit we leave for her the second I turn my back.

That’s how my rescue Pi is! He also plays with toys after I turn my back, never while I am looking. Little rascal. But all that watching.... they bond tightly to you. My Pi is always on my shoulder (now) although 4 years ago we started out cagebound and never, ever coming out or playing with toys.

I put a perch on the outside of his cage and kept the door open. He soon ‘sneaked’ out but if I looked at him he raced back in his cage. Now he stays on that perch when he isn’t on me. I also put a big ladder from the floor up to the cage door so that if he falls (little clumsy thing) he can get back on his own.

I’m glad things are working out with your new baby. Now I have to take @LSA to task for calling them autistic. They’re probably smarter than we are.

 

[LSA]

Now I have to take @LSA to task for calling them autistic. They’re probably smarter than we are.

Oh, you think autistic means not smart?

 

[finchly]

Oh, you think autistic means not smart?

No you know how I type to fast! Autistic means different. Maybe they are. I thought they were just introverts.

 

[LSA]

Autistic means different. Maybe they are. I thought they were just introverts.

At least my Pionus is VERY different from any bird I have or have had! She is very introverted unlike any fids I've known. Yep. Call it what you want; she is different.

 

[LSA]

I put a perch on the outside of his cage and kept the door open. He soon ‘sneaked’ out but if I looked at him he raced back in his cage. Now he stays on that perch when he isn’t on me. I also put a big ladder from the floor up to the cage door so that if he falls (little clumsy thing) he can get back on his own.

Me, too! When she first fell outside her cage, I hurried to help her. @Eloy settled me down and told me to move her ladder and let her figure it out.

 

[finchly]

Me, too! When she first fell outside her cage, I hurried to help her. @Eloy settled me down and told me to move her ladder and let her figure it out.

We all have our different ways. Ernie couldn’t fly and still cant very well - so he needs the comfort of the ladder.