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How to take flight training to the next step?

M&M Ninja

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We adopted our 16-year old Amazon around 8 months ago. Recently, she has been comfortable and trusting enough to start exercising. I step her up and gently 'flap' my arm while advancing slowly. After a couple of weeks of that, I started slowly jogging. I can now 'fly' her for as long as I want...or until I run into the next wall. Then we have to slow, stop and turn around.

She will sometimes get enough lift to take off from my hand. When that happens, I scoop her out of the air to prevent her from crashing into something.

Prior to us starting to 'exercise', she took a couple of flying leaps off her perch. On her own, she has never had any ascent power, turning capability, or knowledge of braking. She just goes until a wall stops her.

What is our next step?

Buying a batting cage net and practicing outside where she can take off? Crashing into the soft ground/grass is a lot kinder than crashing into the wall. Or is there another step I'm missing.
 

~Drini~

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Have her practice recall. Have her on a perch, and ask her to jump onto your hand. Then slowly increase the distance such that her jumps turn into short, targeted flight. 5 inches, 10 inches, 15 inches, etc. Her flights should have direction and an end goal (your hand). That will help reduce crashes while building up her confidence. After she masters flying straight, short distances, you can start introducing turns (don’t stand directly in front of the perch, but stand slightly off to the side or in a way such that she has to make slight horizontal adjustments to reach you. Slowly increase the angle that she has to adjust to).
 

M&M Ninja

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Have her practice recall. Have her on a perch, and ask her to jump onto your hand. Then slowly increase the distance such that her jumps turn into short, targeted flight. 5 inches, 10 inches, 15 inches, etc. Her flights should have direction and an end goal (your hand). That will help reduce crashes while building up her confidence. After she masters flying straight, short distances, you can start introducing turns (don’t stand directly in front of the perch, but stand slightly off to the side or in a way such that she has to make slight horizontal adjustments to reach you. Slowly increase the angle that she has to adjust to).
Thanks for the details. Can you think of anything between my current stage and recall training? I don't think she has enough strength to go from stationary to controlled jump. She's such a heavy-bodied bird and has no history of flying so recall feels like a little much right now. I was thinking of tossing her on the bed, but it's a very short flight.

(She also doesn't overly like me and doesn't come to me willingly in non-flight situations. :bored: So asking for a hop/flight recall is probably demanding too much of our relationship at this stage.)
 

~Drini~

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Thanks for the details. Can you think of anything between my current stage and recall training? I don't think she has enough strength to go from stationary to controlled jump. She's such a heavy-bodied bird and has no history of flying so recall feels like a little much right now. I was thinking of tossing her on the bed, but it's a very short flight.

(She also doesn't overly like me and doesn't come to me willingly in non-flight situations. :bored: So asking for a hop/flight recall is probably demanding too much of our relationship at this stage.)
If she cannot jump to target for a distance of a few inches, then you may just need to focus on basic exercise training before you start thinking about flying. Flying is a lot more physically demanding than jumping. I haven't had such a bird, but maybe giving her unstable perches/platforms could encourage her to use her wings to regain balance. Things like swings, rings, play trays, rope perches with quick links on either end, cargo nets, etc. would get her body moving, granted that she actually uses these. I can also imagine her just becoming a great climber and not using her wings at all with these, but just an idea.

I would also be cautious of tossing her on a bed or even forcing her to flap her wings by walking around with her on your arm, in case that's not something she's actually into. Target training (have her touch the end of a pointer stick on request) using a favorite treat of hers could help you establish a relationship where you're able to request specific actions.
 

Linwood

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I have a 3 yo Amazon DYH how is regaining flight (her first 2.5 years were in a pet store clipped, so not only not able to fly, but not in an encouraging environment).

You didn't mention whether yours was clipped or just has no experience in flight, it may make a difference how you approach it, as you need a decent amount (but not nearly all) flight feathers grown in before it will be really able to fly.

Now, on the other hand, if it's not feathers....

I THOUGHT mine could only fly down as every flight, whether spooked off a perch, or very rarely spontaneously when she just really wanted to be elsewhere, were down. I was fairly regularly trying to get her to build up strength by encouraging her to fly down a long hall (so no obstacles) where she would skid to a stop half way. Then one day it was like she had an idea -- "hey, I bet I can fly up" and all of a sudden she could skim the ceiling all the way down, ducked under a door frame, and ended up in a mess in the bottom of her play area. Just like that -- from "always down and short" to "whever i want to go". Well, except for the aiming part, and especially the landing part.

So ... be prepared.

Since then we've been working mostly on landings. That took a while but was fairly easy -- I would bring her toward a favorite perch and launch her. First few she just flew over, but after not too long she was landing on them. I used a small play stand I could put on the floor or a big table first so a miss didn't fall far. She's now really good at most landings unless she approaches a perch from the end -- she hasn't figure that out quite yet. A few have been beak landings (i.e. grab on in passing with the beak and hang until she can get feet on something).

What I have zero luck with is getting her to fly to me. Zero. Favorite foods get her dancing like a toddler who needs the bathroom, but no launch. She will willing take a LONG step to my arm, but one inch further than she can reach and nothing.

I'm trying a hybrid -- one playstand is about 10' from her cage. I'll get her on the stand, then open a favorite container of food (plastic lid opening is like a dinner bell) and put it on top of the cage. She launches to the cage, and my arm goes up and in the way, and she lands on it, then gets a treat. She's done that a dozen or more times in the last few days, gets a treat but still won't aim for it herself. But we are working on it.

One thing I've learned -- not exactly on purpose -- birds are tougher than you think. She's launched herself quite a few times when I did not want her to, or gone the wrong way and run into a dead end. Collisions are not infrequent, often far up on a wall (trying to land on some edge, like top of a tile band, that can't be landed on). Ugly flutter (more of a collapse) to the floor. A few collisions with door frames. So far no harm. I worry but... short of keeping her locked in the cage it's impossible to prevent these. I do keep the doors closed to some rooms, but the house is mostly an open floor plan. People here will talk about padding the floors and protecting them on landing, but there's a point really quickly you get to where they just go anywhere in the house they want -- you can't pad it all.

I do suggest you not encourage landing anywhere but designated perches or cages, not because they can't, but because it's a lot less trouble for you. Don't reward them for landing on a window sill (unless you really want them there), or kitchen cabinets. Reward them only for landing on approved airports! Maybe even put them away if they spontaneously launch to somewhere unapproved. You'll be happier about this when they don't decide to land in a plate of pasta on your dining room table.
 
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Linwood

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About 90 minutes after posting this I was cooking bacon and eggs in the kitchen, which is a dark hall and a couple of right angle turns away from where my Amazon was on her cage.

As I put the eggs in I hear the sound of wings beating and suddenly she arrives -- she landed on a small stand perch on the kitchen island. That's the first time ever she has left my office (and her cage) on her own.

Since she landed on a perch (and watching that she stayed there and didn't fly over to the frying pan) I got a small bowl of scrambled eggs for her on the stand, and she ate while I did. She LOVES eggs. Cannibal.

When I was done I went back to my office and left her eating. About 10 minutes later she flies back to the office and stands there on her playstand looking at me like "well, what now".

So I think... other than not flying to me... she's graduated. And now I need to start thinking twice about leaving her out when I'm not in the room with her. She was "safe" in that regard, never before leaving her cage (top or inside, she roams). She is not now, and is going to be upset at being locked in more.

So be careful what you wish for, flight-wise.....

I do still wonder if she somehow smelled the eggs, or just was bored and took off at a coincidentally good time. It was just a minute or two after I put butter in the pan to cook the eggs.
 

~Drini~

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That is so great :)
 

M&M Ninja

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Things like swings, rings, play trays, rope perches with quick links on either end, cargo nets, etc. would get her body moving, granted that she actually uses these.
I love the idea of unstable perches! Thanks.

Regarding targeting - She knows how to target, as well as lots of silly tricks (e.g. wave each hand, open wings, shake, turn either direction). We're also working on picking up a ring toy to put it on a peg.

I have wondered if she doesn't like the 'forced flapping', but every time I step her up, she goes into tight crouch mode with her wings up and slightly open, as if she is preparing for her flight time. Even after 8 months, I still find her to be very much a mystery.
 

M&M Ninja

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@Linwood

There is so much I love about both your messages! Congrats on your Amazon's huge accomplishment of following her curiosity and successfully going somewhere on her own. That's huge!

My conure is both flighted and recall trained. She is either locked in her cage, or free and under supervision, because she can and will go to wherever she pleases. She does have approved airports and she is very good about using them. If she lands up on top of the kitchen cabinets, she is very willing to come down to a perch. She knows where the poop zones are. She'll recall without a line of sight. She's great.

I'm using her to model (for both me and the Amazon, Bea) what is possible. Ultimately, I think a bird's mental and physical health will be best if they can fly. (Well, they have to actually make use of their flight and not be lazy bums.) Climbing is great, but vigorous flapping is better.

I love what you described with the playstand to cage idea. Bea loves her cage, and I think she'd fly to it, especially if given the right incentive. I think I need to figure out a way to raise the playstand so that, initially, she can fly down to the cage.

When you say you'd launch her toward the table, how'd you do that? Was she perched on you and you flapped your hand/arm so that she had to take off? Or did you hold her like a football/chicken and you tossed her? Did doing so make her afraid to be on you?

Thank you for what you said about them being tough. Bea has had her share of crashes and awkward landings. With her new 'flap training' we've been doing, she has suddenly started to jump while inside her cage. "Oh my God! You've arrived in the room to take me out!" *LEAPS onto the side of the cage with vigorous flapping and sometimes missing her target.*

My husband keeps telling me that baby birds are familiar with this process. They have to crash and practice before they get it right.

To answer your question about clipped - She was 15ish years with her owner, most likely clipped and caged the entire time. The woman was older and ended up giving the bird away at the end of her life. Bea then lived at the sanctuary for a year. We adopted her and over time, she molted feathers, several of which showed signs of having been clipped. So we don't know if she was clipped because she previously flew or if she was clipped because they didn't want to risk it.
 

Linwood

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@Linwood
When you say you'd launch her toward the table, how'd you do that? Was she perched on you and you flapped your hand/arm so that she had to take off? Or did you hold her like a football/chicken and you tossed her? Did doing so make her afraid to be on you?
When walking with her normally perched on my wrist I usually hold her near my body - no real reason, just do. So when I want to encourage her to fly, I move the arm out from the body, and make a little forward motion. More of a signal than momentum. Sometimes she doesn't want to go, she just hangs on and comes back with the hand, but most times she takes that as a signal to fly and takes off -- somewhere. If I'm near and aimed at a perch usually to it, though more and more she just decides where she wants to be.

I haven't done it emphatically enough that she could not hang on, but she also isn't reluctant to fly. I spend more time carrying her stopping and saying something if she stars squatting down like she plans to take off than I do making a reluctant bird fly. But if I really wanted her to fly I'd probably just move the arm faster forward, sounds a bit like you do to make her flap.

Interestingly yesterday (I have not had time today) she apparently really learned that the flight to the cage got a treat, so she not only did that several more times, but most of those times she ate the treat (usually a walnut or almond piece) then flew back to the cage stand looking at me like "ok, let's do it all again". She is certainly food motivated. Though when she flies over she is clearly trying to land on the perch and this darn human keeps sticking the arm up in front of her. But she does land there, so practice will make it more normal.
 

M&M Ninja

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When walking with her normally perched on my wrist I usually hold her near my body - no real reason, just do. So when I want to encourage her to fly, I move the arm out from the body, and make a little forward motion. More of a signal than momentum. Sometimes she doesn't want to go, she just hangs on and comes back with the hand, but most times she takes that as a signal to fly and takes off -- somewhere. If I'm near and aimed at a perch usually to it, though more and more she just decides where she wants to be.

I haven't done it emphatically enough that she could not hang on, but she also isn't reluctant to fly. I spend more time carrying her stopping and saying something if she stars squatting down like she plans to take off than I do making a reluctant bird fly. But if I really wanted her to fly I'd probably just move the arm faster forward, sounds a bit like you do to make her flap.

Interestingly yesterday (I have not had time today) she apparently really learned that the flight to the cage got a treat, so she not only did that several more times, but most of those times she ate the treat (usually a walnut or almond piece) then flew back to the cage stand looking at me like "ok, let's do it all again". She is certainly food motivated. Though when she flies over she is clearly trying to land on the perch and this darn human keeps sticking the arm up in front of her. But she does land there, so practice will make it more normal.
That's all super exciting! Congrats!

Thank you for the extra details. Maybe I'll start with walking toward her cage and gently launching her so that she jump-flies onto the springy top of the cage. Then big treat.

I think Bea wants to fly. Her overall demeanor / personality, however, is timid and nervous, so that influences her self-confidence and willingness to try new things. We're getting there. When we first brought her home, she would run away from hands in her cage. Then I remember the day when I was going to give up on step-up training and just let her be a bird that sat on top of her cage. We are so far beyond that now, it's amazing.
 

Linwood

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It's a bit like toddlers. One day they can't do something -- whatever it is, walking, crawling, counting... then all of a sudden that thing is just normal. Not a lot of transition.

Mine for example still hasn't discovered she can fly up from the floor. Every floor landing she walks until she reaches her cage, or I pick her up. One day she walked up to a stand where it's held up by a 5' PVC pipe, and just kept trying to climb up the smooth pipe.

One day she will discover she can fly up from the floor.
 
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