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Video How do you scold your bird?

Teagan Hall

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I was told birds are like toddlers with wings; they were not wrong. And like toddlers it is important to have consequences for good and bad behaviour.

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Birds scream, it's a natural part of their behaviour. They could be scared, talkative, wanting attention or displaying aggression, etc. Birds also bite: maybe they were intimidated or using their beak as a hand. No animal or human should ever be punished for natural behaviour but instead, discouraged.

I've owned rabbits, dogs, cats, horses, tortoises and now birds. More or less the method of praising and scolding works the same.

What I wanted to focus on was more about bird biting and how to discourage that behaviour. When a dog bites it is usually taken as a sign of aggression or bad behaviour / temperament. Sometimes hormones get the better of them or their territorial about a certain person/object. These are explanations for the animal's behaviour but they still must be told 'no'.

For example, when I had a pair of St. Bernards, the youngest (Paddy) keep biting Bow's ear. Once he clamped down that hard Bow let out a horrid yelp; seconds later my mam comes charing over and bites Paddy on the ear. Not once after that did Paddy bite Bow.

Although if a bird bites we can't bite it back and we shouldn't, because quite obviously their not dogs.

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I think we should treat them more like horses. My sister owned a mare and she was not afraid to tell you how much she didn't like you. Tacking her up she'd lunge to bite you, or when you brushed her, taking off her head collar... She was out for you. But she wasn't a bad horse, she was old and not the most affectionate type. So when she decided to bite or lunge, I'd sternly tell her no and glare and ignore her until she came back to apologise. Horses, in my experience, don't like to be ignored. In fact I did this alot with my own St Bernard when he was misbehaving and he came up to me waiting for my to acknowledge him.

It's like when I was a kid, the worst punishment my mam ever gave me was ignoring me. It didn't matter how long, it broke me. If she shouted I either didn't care or shrug it off. If something was taking off me, well I can live without it. You take something off an animal they probably won't understand, you shout, well you become scary or you lose their want to be with you (which can be regained). But with all animals I've notice, when you tell them no, low and stern, and you pretend their not their, they come back to you because they want your attention.

I've heard a handful of people say that "birds just bite", "if you can't deal with birds biting then don't have one", and the themes continue as such. My conures, when hopping onto my arm either fly or bite my clothing to climb on. They like to eat my clothing and my hands and fingers, they don't really understand how rough their being sometimes. Malachy is quite happy to sit and look at me, or wait for treats. Ignatius is the one who really, really likes to eat my clothes. Sometimes the pair of them go as far as to seek my hand out. Usually they'll scratch their beaks on my skin and the rest of the time their actively biting me.


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I have tried the 'earthquake method', where every time they bite me or my clothing I shake my arm or whatever they're on. However, at first the problem was Ignatius was doing the biting (sat on my arm) and I would shake. Although Malachy would also get that backlash of that and for no reason. Eventually, (even when this method was applied to them individually) they weren't responding how I wanted to. The odd time they'd fly off, or they'd stop and I'd praise them, but then they'd continue and no amount of shaking worked.

I've always refrained responding to their biting. I read (or heard) that you should never appear in pain when a bird bites you as they'll remember and do it again if they wish to retaliate. Which obviously isn't a natural reaction, what I really want to do in that split second is yellow and bat them away but that's wrong. The consequence of yelling and striking them is I will not have a friendly companion, I will gain a scared or aggressive bird. The consequence of them biting me, is the word 'no'.

I have yelled at the conures on one recent occasion, mainly because I panicked. Long story short, my parrotlets were in the same room as they for a half hour (in their cage). The conures were inquisitive, and what started as an intrigued look, end in hostility through the bars. I yelled a few times and clapped loudly, then finally, after the failed attempts, guided them away with their 'step up' perch. None of the birds were hurt and the parrotlets were removed from the room. My reaction wasn't the best I must admit but in situations like that it was hard to think. They didn't fall out with me and they weren't scared, what that taught them (in my opinion), when she shouts and is loud she's not going to do anything. I was just making noise, I wasn't being direct.

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So to the incident this morning (and the main reason for this thread). Malachy, my green cheek conure, is the friendly one out of he and his brother, Ignatius. Ignatius mainly keeps himself to himself. He likes to jump on my head and sometimes hops on my arm if his brother is there. Malachy actually really gets on with me. He knows when I say 'up' I want him to hop on my arm or 'step up' perch and I have begun training him to nod his head when I ask him 'are you ok?'. He does it when I enter the room recently because I made such a deal out of it by getting excited and nodding back. He's very proud of him when he does it. All round he's the friendlier bird out the two, however, somehow the most nippest.

Because most treats come from my hands and fingers they seem to think that my skin is also food. Or maybe they just wanna eat me, who knows!

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This morning Mally kept flying onto my shoulder. He began eating my collar and then my neck. When I shook my shoulder he just moved up and went to bite either my clothes or skin, so I got his 'step up' perch and took him to his play stand. This happened a few times. (Possibly Malachy too) he kept jump on my head. Usually they nibbled on my hair and personally I don't mind, but today he began eating my forehead so I shook my head a few times and he flew off. Then moments later he fly right on my chest, eating my jumper. I laughed and went to go get the 'step up' perch. Before I knew it, he freaked out and latched on to my thumb, flapping his wings, until I swiftly lifted up my thumb and he darted to his play stand. Instantly I glared at him and firmly told him that wasn't ok. He didn't move, in fact he looked more like a scolded child and put his head inwards (even Ignatius displayed the same guilty behaviour).

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This is the third time Malachy has bit me. The first was, granted my own fault. Slowly, I am trying to get them both used to the idea of my hand above them. Sometimes they duck down, move away or more commonly - lunge. Which is an acceptable reaction. Mally managed to get my finger when I pretty much baiting him with my finger (I was trying to stroke him on my beak because on occasion he's let me).

The second was yesterday when I was getting a video for my mam of him nodding. I had him on my left hand and my phone in my right. I realised after he had done it right I couldn't get the treat with my other hand because the phone was in it. He saw the dried banana in my left, waddle over and then bit my hand removing some skin. To be honest, it didn't hurt and he was just eating the thin fabric of my clothes and dug a little too hard. I was surprised I did make a noise and I think he remembered because that third time was blatant aggression and he knew it would hurt. And fair enough, that's how I would retaliate if I didn't want to do something, but it doesn't make it right.

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I have a family who really likes them and especially my mam who goes in and feeds them. The last thing I want is to put them in a closed environment with a who thinks it can bite its way to victory.

Discipline is so important in anyone's upbringing, to be a well-rounded individual. B
Limitations fulfill pets and children alike because they build respect for their carer and sometimes it's better to he respected than liked all the time.

At the end of the day the creatures are complicated and they can't even talk. Maybe Malachy is just using his beak to climb or maybe he's about to bite me. It's one of those things that I might not know until it happens. But I would never hit them, spray them, slam something or leave them in the dark. If I have learnt one thing with most animals, it's immediate, firm reactions and then we move on. Then we get them to do something good and praise them.

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I am a newbie to owning parrots and I am really learning as I go. As a patent, we make mistakes and we are sometimes clueless. If anyone has their own learning experiences or tips on biting or critiques on my present method, I'd be happy to hear them!
 

Brittany0208

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I couldn't read through the entirety of the post (too much). But the simple answer is: don't get bit. Clearly your bird is communicating to you, or whoever, that it doesn't like what's being done. You have to learn your bird's body language, and learn what triggers a biting response. My bird Java, even after two years, is still nippy, but it's a clear indicator when he's nipping as to say 'no, I don't like that' or lunging as to say 'I'll hurt you if you persist'. Usually if he starts opening his mouth or following the person or object with his eyes, that tells me that he's uncertain and he's getting ready to bite. What I do then is give him his space. I never scold him because he never bites for no reason. If I want to pet him and he doesn't want it, he'll move away from me, if I persist, then he'll bite.
I got him as an untamed breeder, and he's still very much wild. He wants nothing to do with anyone beside me and doesn't mind biting or screaming to let them know. Now sometimes he'll nip me unexpectedly if I give him a treat and hold my hand out longer than he appreciates, but I can tell he isn't trying to hurt me.
All in all, you have to learn your bird's quirks. I'm not a fan of any sort of physical discipline with birds. I never put him in the cage as 'time out' because then he will begin to associate his cage with time out. What I do when I'm displeased with his behavior, is I ignore him. He's stubborn and doesn't really seem to care if I ignore him, but I've never really had to employ this method because I know his warning signs.
 

Dartman

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You have to learn to read them and earn their trust. As you get to know and trust each other the bites should slow down and you'll get more warning first as you are still figuring each other out and what is acceptable behavior. Lurch was a used parrot who lost his owner and the leftover family didn't like him and pretty sure hit at him to make him behave and be quiet. He learned to just quickly bite without any warning to protect himself and when I got him he was mad at the world and scared to death. We were doing great on a perch and I was scratching him and he suddenly had a thought and just nailed me hard and tore off some skin, so I decided startling my new bird wasn't a good idea and walked away to calm down while he birdy sweared at me. After that I realized we weren't going to be immediate best friends and took the long term approach. He very slowly started to trust and care for me so he started giving fair warnings again and I learned to leave him alone when grumpy or be very fast. After about merely 5 years I was his best friend and he didn't try to bite as fast or hard, plus I learned some of his triggers and avoided them or learned what he was asking for by biting and did it, stopping that reason to bite. They always have a reason, it just might make any sense to us. Lurch got to the point if I left the room he'd fly after me and plop mostly safely on my shoulder to hang out. At first I did a lot of things beside him in my chair and has he got to know me he'd come closer and closer and slowly interact more. First he was on the chair close to me, then the back of my recliner, then on the arm beside me etc. I'd get some scritches in, get bit because I got to close, and we'd keep working at it. I learned getting mad and yelling just got him mad right back, being happy made him happy right back, and when he was grumpy just leave him alone and he'd come around when he was ready. They are little emotional sponges and mirror it right back at us
 

GoDucks

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This is an interesting thread and I like the way you have intertwined the photos of your cuties into the content.

You ask good questions and make some great points- I too have firmly said "no" to my parrot when he is about to pull off one of his tricks and it has worked- so far. Simply walking away from them is also an option because as you noted, nobody likes to be ignored.
 

MommyBird

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I think you are ready to read some of Susan Friedman's papers, you are getting there & these will help guide your thoughts.
I think knowing the bird's body language, then working with ABCs (antecedents, behavior, consequences) and ... having patience.
Written Works: Learning and Behavior - BehaviorWorks.com
There's also lara joseph and barbara heidenreich if you want to look at their info.
 

Monaco

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I'm also struggling with Monaco changing the rules without telling me. I have a consult with Pam Clark coming up, and I think she might have some good ideas... I certainly hope so.

My experience is with dogs. But, very little of it is training the dog, most of the training is for the human. I suspect it will be the same for me... I need training. Dogs don't have hands, I tell them, so the exploration of the world is with their mouths. You can see them react if they're bitten too hard while playing with another dog, and the response from the offending party. Mimicking that works very well for dogs. I've seen some posts where a similar situation has worked well for the parrot, learning how much pressure is too much while already interacting in some way, and where you haven't been the offending party...like a puppy nibbling and then getting too hard as he went on having fun. This is very different from a defensive or aggressive bite. These take a lot more thought with birds to figure out what the offense was. And, even more thought when the rules change without notice. It's like living with my abusive ex in that way, and I have to take a very long break to reset my sense of the world. Looking instead at what they want from the interaction can give clues about what to do, but every scenario can take a while to figure out if at all.

All I know for sure is that a non-reaction is unrealistic. It doesn't happen in nature, and it definitely doesn't help while they're clamped onto your body. I wonder if what people mean by that is non-responsive and devoid of emotion. I don't think it's unreasonable to at least be on equal footing as any other living thing, yelp if I get hurt, jerk away if I get bitten or scared or try to avoid something coming for me, those are completely natural reactions and can build time into the interaction to use for a reassessment of what to do next which would be a response. I do know that once the interaction is done and everyone is in their respective corners (bird in a safe place so you can turn your back) cooling off for both parties is necessary and at least for mammals withdrawal of attention does work like a charm, but I'm not convinced at all that it's this simple with birds. I suspect that each incident is far more complex than I have found information to describe...yet! I think the answers will come from close inspection of wild populations and those social interactions. In the meantime trial and error is the only option left.

As always, I'm excited to see the responses for your situation. It strikes me as a little like the puppy exploring how hard they can use their mouth on that lovely squishy skin.
 

Princessbella

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Bella understands the word no. She says it to me quite often so if she bites me, I tell her no bite and put her on top of her cage. She has learned to first open her beak and then she touches my skin without biting and if I persist, I deserve to get bit. Oh wait, did she train me?
 

macawpower58

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Think of how good humane trainers train the dolphins, whales, and such.
I'ts all about taking natural behaviors and through reward and withholding reward they're taught tricks.
It is almost all positive, the days of brutality and dominance have been luckily for the most part gone away.
Parrots are not domesticated in that disciplined training does not work very well with them, as with other wild animals.
Parrots are also very intelligent, and easily catch on to what we want, it's just convincing them they want it too, that's a trial and error process.
Most of us don't really push for 'well trained' birds. Happy, trusting social birds, are IMO what most of us strive for.
We do have a trainer @Macawnutz who can give you some experienced advice.

Discipline IMO is not the best way with birds.
Structure, respect, and conditioning behavior is the best way to get good results.
 

Teagan Hall

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You have to learn to read them and earn their trust. As you get to know and trust each other the bites should slow down and you'll get more warning first as you are still figuring each other out and what is acceptable behavior. Lurch was a used parrot who lost his owner and the leftover family didn't like him and pretty sure hit at him to make him behave and be quiet. He learned to just quickly bite without any warning to protect himself and when I got him he was mad at the world and scared to death. We were doing great on a perch and I was scratching him and he suddenly had a thought and just nailed me hard and tore off some skin, so I decided startling my new bird wasn't a good idea and walked away to calm down while he birdy sweared at me. After that I realized we weren't going to be immediate best friends and took the long term approach. He very slowly started to trust and care for me so he started giving fair warnings again and I learned to leave him alone when grumpy or be very fast. After about merely 5 years I was his best friend and he didn't try to bite as fast or hard, plus I learned some of his triggers and avoided them or learned what he was asking for by biting and did it, stopping that reason to bite. They always have a reason, it just might make any sense to us. Lurch got to the point if I left the room he'd fly after me and plop mostly safely on my shoulder to hang out. At first I did a lot of things beside him in my chair and has he got to know me he'd come closer and closer and slowly interact more. First he was on the chair close to me, then the back of my recliner, then on the arm beside me etc. I'd get some scritches in, get bit because I got to close, and we'd keep working at it. I learned getting mad and yelling just got him mad right back, being happy made him happy right back, and when he was grumpy just leave him alone and he'd come around when he was ready. They are little emotional sponges and mirror it right back at us
Definitely, body language is a must to understand. They are still babies (so to speak) only about one and half. They are a real joy to have and have grown comfortable really quickly over these past couple months. I think they're a bit settled and trying it on a little bit. Also I have to remind myself that they are birds, which is silly, but they are like no other companion.
 

Teagan Hall

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This is an interesting thread and I like the way you have intertwined the photos of your cuties into the content.

You ask good questions and make some great points- I too have firmly said "no" to my parrot when he is about to pull off one of his tricks and it has worked- so far. Simply walking away from them is also an option because as you noted, nobody likes to be ignored.
Thank you! They are lovely little monsters. He really responded to it well, he wasn't scared and they both went in their cage like I wanted.
 

Teagan Hall

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I think you are ready to read some of Susan Friedman's papers, you are getting there & these will help guide your thoughts.
I think knowing the bird's body language, then working with ABCs (antecedents, behavior, consequences) and ... having patience.
Written Works: Learning and Behavior - BehaviorWorks.com
There's also lara joseph and barbara heidenreich if you want to look at their info.
Thank you very much, I'll read them right away!
 

JLcribber

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Discipline is so important in anyone's upbringing, to be a well-rounded individual
Structure and guidance (along with positive reinforcement) is important in anyone's upbringing. Discipline is punishment and has no place in training.

Yelling "NO" to a cockatoo is a verbal drama reward. Fabulous reward and sure to "increase" the undesired behaviour.
 

Teagan Hall

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I'm also struggling with Monaco changing the rules without telling me. I have a consult with Pam Clark coming up, and I think she might have some good ideas... I certainly hope so.

My experience is with dogs. But, very little of it is training the dog, most of the training is for the human. I suspect it will be the same for me... I need training. Dogs don't have hands, I tell them, so the exploration of the world is with their mouths. You can see them react if they're bitten too hard while playing with another dog, and the response from the offending party. Mimicking that works very well for dogs. I've seen some posts where a similar situation has worked well for the parrot, learning how much pressure is too much while already interacting in some way, and where you haven't been the offending party...like a puppy nibbling and then getting too hard as he went on having fun. This is very different from a defensive or aggressive bite. These take a lot more thought with birds to figure out what the offense was. And, even more thought when the rules change without notice. It's like living with my abusive ex in that way, and I have to take a very long break to reset my sense of the world. Looking instead at what they want from the interaction can give clues about what to do, but every scenario can take a while to figure out if at all.

All I know for sure is that a non-reaction is unrealistic. It doesn't happen in nature, and it definitely doesn't help while they're clamped onto your body. I wonder if what people mean by that is non-responsive and devoid of emotion. I don't think it's unreasonable to at least be on equal footing as any other living thing, yelp if I get hurt, jerk away if I get bitten or scared or try to avoid something coming for me, those are completely natural reactions and can build time into the interaction to use for a reassessment of what to do next which would be a response. I do know that once the interaction is done and everyone is in their respective corners (bird in a safe place so you can turn your back) cooling off for both parties is necessary and at least for mammals withdrawal of attention does work like a charm, but I'm not convinced at all that it's this simple with birds. I suspect that each incident is far more complex than I have found information to describe...yet! I think the answers will come from close inspection of wild populations and those social interactions. In the meantime trial and error is the only option left.

As always, I'm excited to see the responses for your situation. It strikes me as a little like the puppy exploring how hard they can use their mouth on that lovely squishy skin.
You make a good point about the biting. I had a lot of rabbits when I was younger; like dogs they sometimes nibble and sometimes a bit too hard. I was told to yell (not at them) so they know it hurt. Rabbits don't want to hurt people and when they realise they have, they actually feel guilty and never do it again.
When puppies or kittens are in a litter, they play fight and realise what hurts, it's an important part of socialisation.
But birds? To be honest I haven't got a solid opinion on it. I think reacting is bad because they know how to hurt you but, your point is still valid and one to consider.
Thank you.
 

Teagan Hall

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Teagan
Think of how good humane trainers train the dolphins, whales, and such.
I'ts all about taking natural behaviors and through reward and withholding reward they're taught tricks.
It is almost all positive, the days of brutality and dominance have been luckily for the most part gone away.
Parrots are not domesticated in that disciplined training does not work very well with them, as with other wild animals.
Parrots are also very intelligent, and easily catch on to what we want, it's just convincing them they want it too, that's a trial and error process.
Most of us don't really push for 'well trained' birds. Happy, trusting social birds, are IMO what most of us strive for.
We do have a trainer @Macawnutz who can give you some experienced advice.

Discipline IMO is not the best way with birds.
Structure, respect, and conditioning behavior is the best way to get good results.
Thank you. I definitely understand where you're coming from.
All their good behaviours are really made a big deal of. My voice is the big teller for them. When they are told 'no' its simply with my mouth and eyes. I never move my body parts in their face.
I've known parent to just ignore their child's bad behaviour, saying "if I don't react, they'll stop/get bored". I don't really believe in that method.
No animal is really domesticed. My dog once went to latch on to my arm because I wouldn't let him run out the door. Full aggression and he would have bitten down if I wasn't fast enough. Same with my sisters horse. 'No' is really important and a good discouragement to behaviour you don't want in your companion.
My point being there is no such thing as fully tame/domesticed. Like you said its all about trust, but even with trust and mutual understanding we all have hiccups that are dealt with then and there, and then we move on to something fun again.
 

Teagan Hall

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Teagan
Structure and guidance (along with positive reinforcement) is important in anyone's upbringing. Discipline is punishment and has no place in training.

Yelling "NO" to a cockatoo is a verbal drama reward. Fabulous reward and sure to "increase" the undesired behaviour.
I don't necessarily agree. Discipline is what a person can obtain through praise and scold. It's important for me to really praise them with treats and happy voices. But when things get serious, I do not yell. With no animal, in my experience, yelling ever worked.
Scolding isn't a bad thing, it's apart of a balance that separates the good thing from the not so good thing.
Like horses (heck, any animal) , the scold has to be as immediate as it can otherwise they don't get it. It's a sten 'no' that says 'I'm cross what you did and you've made me unhappy'.
If my bird bites me because I'm pushing my hand on him, that's my fault and that's his 'no'. But if my bird bites me because he can, I don't like that and I will say 'no' and ignore him for a few minutes.
 
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