holistic suggestions 4pain mgmt & anti inflammatory

[kimba47]

Hello
Since 8 mo old.....I have had a 22 year old male umbrella cockatoo who suffers from an ongoing cloaca that prolapses..... forjust over a year now. Initially I immediately took him to an avian vet who treated him. His cloaca was enlarged most likely from the desire to breed and we discussed behavior and also diet and modifications. He was given a shot of depo Lupron 0.3 and some shot for pain (dolorex 10 mg) i think) and after the gram stain she sent me home with nystatin & celebrex and clavamox. For the pain management I was given Tramadol 50mg and based on his weight i give him .7ml every 8 hrs as needed.
So a year later we are still doing depo lupron shots and tramadol for pain.
I also use spectoguard daily in water for the bacteria/yeast that occurs from the cloaca coming out and not remaining sterile. Every day I mix up 2 oz of water with the appropriate amt of spectoguard and syringe it to him through out the day and sometimes I do just water to ensure he is getting LOTS of fluids because over time the delicate parts inside the cloaca have become damaged and the fluid part of the feces leak slightly from his butt. This leaves less fluid to aid with the excretion process (more dry feces) and that in turn leads to straining. What happens is that a small piece of the end of the poop stops in the passageway since there is not enuf liquid to help slide it all out together. Thus, It seems to make him feel he still has more to poop so he trys to poop again without success. The prolapse gets larger. This in turn leads to more pain and inflammation and more bacteria.
So long story short on the pain aspect.......I am not sure the Tramadol works. I am very observant and tuned into my bird but just cannot be sure what to think or exactly how to read his pain levels.I dont think he likes how it makes him feel....but who really knows....sometimes we get spooks in our heads and over analyze.......I have noticed that he will not have an appetite (pain or the med?) and I really hate giving meds on an empty gut.
I am wondering if there are any holistic suggestions you all may have. And also in the beginning, the vet made a bottled solution of ginger, dandelion root, and milk thistle. It was all mixed together and I gave that to him as well but that has been over 7 months ago. I have since read more about those and want to purchase those again without the inflated cost.
I use a product called Melissa Supreme *** (non alcohol formula)**** which has lemon balm in it along with several other things, which I use to drop a few drops on the protruded cloaca before I push it back it with a sterile q-tip and personal water based lubricant. The vet said it would feel soothing to his irritated cloaca.
I was really hoping I may get some suggestions to help manage my too's discomfort and pain or even strengthen him in another way with something. A fresh perspective is worth a great deal to me.
Hope this made sense....I feel exhausted by this all and there are days I almost cant handle the whole repertoire but its not about me.
thank you

 

[Clueless]

@Macawnutz

Any suggestions or know who we could tag?

 

[iamwhoiam]

Vetri-dmg is an excellent supplement for supporting the immune system and bodily functions. Amazon.com : Vetri-DMG Liquid 1 oz : Pet Antioxidant Nutritional Supplements : Pet Supplies
Check with your vet. I am currently giving this to two of my birds and have given it to others in the past and have found it to be beneficial for a variety of issues.

 

[Macawnutz]

Without looking, your tramadol dose sounds high to me. Make very sure if you decide to remove it that you wean him off it as it's very addicting. Did they suggest any surgery?

As far as a holistic approach to this I feel a natural course of treatment will not be enough. You could look into slippery elm, Slippery Elm | Holistic Bird Newsletter although talk with your vet as it can interfer with other medications.

@Hankmacaw @Bokkapooh

 

[Hankmacaw]

I'm so sorry your guy (and you) are going through this. Like @Macawnutz said holistic treatments do not have as much strength as commercial drugs. You will need to continue the Tramadol. There are other pain meds that may help - Metacam, an nsaid that has anti-inflammatory properties, Gabapentin, which is a pain med that is effective for nerve pain and Celebrex, an nsaid that has ani-infammatory properties and is used widely for arthritis pain. Tese are all efective pain meds. My Jasper is on gabapentin and Celebrex for arthritis. I'll check the Tramadol dosage against what was prescribed for Jasper. Jasper at 1100gm was prescribed .22ml of Tramadol 50mg/ml.

To help him to have looser poop papaya and mango will cause him to have looser poop and is very good for him because it has lots of Vit A. Metaclropomide will help push his food through him and Prozyme will pre-digest the protein and help make his feces softer. Pumpkin is also good for making softer feces.

I'll be back.

 

[kimba47]

My first few visits my vet said that she was sure I had read on the internet about the surgery that is talked about for prolapsed cloacas and she said that
more than not those surgeries are NOT successful and she does not recommend it. I would be let down. That apparently is her experience from her dealings, readings, travels, and interactions with her practice as well as other vets and birds etc etc. She said its a very slim chance of success and does not guarantee that a prolapse would not happen again in the future., especially in a cockatoo where this more notorious.
Apparently, as a single woman of a male cockatoo ......who has had the ability to lead a rather cage free life (mostly but not always) and who has slept in bed every night with a blanket, now is hormonal and inclined to want to breed with me who he sees as his mate. She said this needs to change and any behaviors like petting the back and coddling etc etc. I have unfortunately created a
frustrating situation and need to alter any ideas about Mate to that of friend. Initially we were watching and hoping it would stay in and had put a stitch in to help which did work for awhile
however, the cloaca still continued to swell periodically. Eventually that subsided but he strains alot and that causes the prolapse. Its a vicious cycle of pain, sometimes bacteria or irritation, and at time swelling. luckily sweet potatoes are a favorite food and I am able to help his stool have some fiber and better evacuation between this and the syringing of water and water with the spectoguard. I try to feed him balanced diet....little seed and pettets which he seems partial to only certain colors. On the last visit we talked about biodome....i have to check that name....its a refrigerated fiber i believe but I had an electrical outage and it totally slipped my mind and all of it had to get thrown away so I have to check my paperwork about that. It came in tubes like those powdered flavored water sweeter things....you open the end and sprinkle some on or in the food. Didnt get to really use it unfortunately..

 

[Hankmacaw]

A word about Tramadol. It is an opioid an does cause addiction. Being an opioid it can also cause constipation. It is a very good pain killer, but like all drugs it has it's downsides.

Your vet is correct that you must change your behavior with your cockatoo and become his friend instead of his mate. No more sleeping in bed with you - that's dangerous as well as encouraging his sexual behavior. No cuddling and petting/stroking. Try playing rough with him and providing him with lots of toys . Distract him whenever he gets sexy with you. It will be tough, but he is your 22 year baby.

The DMG is a good supplement for a bird facing his issue of constant exposure to infection.

Milk thistle and dandelion are well recognized by traditional medicine as supportive for the liver and kidneys, but ginger is for nausea only - as far as I can find out.

Haloperidol (Haldol) is a possibility as an intervention to his hyper-sexuality, but is generally considered a last ditch. My Jasper was on Haldol for 10 days to keep her from chewing a bandage off of an injured foot - it worked. She was completely intolerant of a collar.

I like @Macawnutz would explore the possibility of surgery for your guy. There are differing opinions on the surgery and surgery methods have greatly improved.

Please, please discuss everthing I have mentioned with your vet before trying them.

 

[kimba47]

thank you....where can I learn about preparing a milk thistle and dandelion suspension......everything you get at the vet is marked up severely...

obviously they need to cover their costs and earn a living but longer term or larger use of these things it is something I need to be cost conscientious of ....I have been looking thru the threads but do not see much.
There was an older thread and someone said something about using the milk thistle seed I thought....hasnt anyone here ever made any of these suspensions weather
individually or in combination? I always feel in my life as if I am re inventing the wheel....meaning I have to painstakingly look and research every darn aspect of how to.....

Tramadol 50mg is not exactly cheap....last month it was 70$ for what looks to be a 2 oz bottle. I was also considering using the Melissa Supreme Non alcohol****orally
as it says you can....and I do not see anything in it that appears on the lists of things to avoid in birds but would consult a vet first.

I am lucky that there is another female avian vet here where I am..on the Ohio / Mi border (literally) and I am going to go and see what she
has to interject about his condition. I am rather puzzled as to not find much info about this condition as my vet did say it was common in too's....
apparently not that common or I would be seeing a much larger finding of info
thank you

 

[kimba47]

Ok ...sorry.....I see you guys are abbreviating it DMG (dandelion, milk thistle, ginger) and I get it now......hahahahahaha
im slooowwwww

iamwhoiam.....I get it now

at least i am laughing....ha !

 

[Macawnutz]

Ok ...sorry.....I see you guys are abbreviating it DMG (dandelion, milk thistle, ginger) and I get it now......hahahahahaha
im slooowwwww

iamwhoiam.....I get it now

at least i am laughing....ha !

Vetri DMG™ Liquid for Dogs and Cats

 

[Hankmacaw]

Here is where I buy my Milk Thistle and Dandelion. You can also buyon Amazon. Just make sure it is alcohol free and pharmaceutical grade. My vet approved of these.

Buy Nature's Answer - Dandelion Root Alcohol Free - 1 oz. at LuckyVitamin.com

Buy Nature's Answer - Milk Thistle Seed Alcohol Free - 1 oz. at LuckyVitamin.com

This is about DMG by Dr. Wissman. DMG: A Nutrient for the New Millennium

It can be purchased many places including Amazon.

 

[Hankmacaw]

Oh yeah - you just mix the Milk Thistle and Dandelion 50/50 and give your bird about .3ml of it per day.

Rather than using herbs (no clinical trials on herbs and darned little information about which one is contraindicated with another. Some people on the forum have used this (specifically for birds) Amazon.com : Avitech Avicalm Calming Supplement, 4 oz : Pet Supplies Some have said they have had good experience and others said they noticed no difference.

I'm not a fan of herbs and stuff - not enough real controlled clinical studies done on them. MT and Dandelion have been studied for years and are accepted by mainline medicine.

Here is a lot of information about cloacal prolapse in parrots. avitech avicalm - Google Search

Keep trying - never give up.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Have you considered getting his cloaca sutured? Since he is not a female and wont be laying eggs, suturing his vent up will help a TON with the cloaca prolapse issue. It'll need to be redone periodically, but it will overall help him a great deal. I couldnt do this with Koo as she would shriek in pain when she tried to go poop immediately after coming around from anesthesia after the suturing was done. She had an ovarian prolapse, which is similar to the cloacal prolapse but her feminine bits leading to the overian tract was also pushed out along with the cloaca itself. I suggest talking to your avian about this option. Less mess, less pain and overall less issues to deal with if you get the cloaca sutured.

 

[iamwhoiam]

DMG does not equal dandelion, milk thistle and ginger in this case although that's clever.
It's dimethylglycine.

 

[Bokkapooh]

And a suggestion to one cockatoo owner to the other, if he is humping something, let him. Allow him to finish. Its when owners get them sexually frustrated that when they try to release their tensed up emotions through a healthy bout of masterbation, these issues occur in male birds as the owner tries to stop the "indecent" act. I know this idea may be "taboo" for many human minds to get around, but honestly, birds are not humans and they hold no such "moral" standards that reflect their beliefs or idealisms that regard expressing sexuality in high disregard. Let the the too get his relief if he is pent up.

Ofcourse preventing "the mood" from setting in, will prevent the embarassment of having to be in the same room as him as he "gets relief". Prevention means, no snuggling for prolong periods of times or stroking down to the tail. Dont go set the mood for him to want to masturbate but know that he may try and if he begins the tail wagging it is best to allow him to seek and reach that relief point.

There is a myth out there that states that parrot owners should ONLY preen head feathers and that only sexually paired birds groom eachother's wings and tail and body feathers. That is so false. Unless everything I have seen is a lie. I have seen macaws and cockatoos in aviaries (lots and lots of birds in long flights) preen entire body feathers of those they trust or see as worthy to perform such an act, not just the ones they percieve as mates. My companion parrots do this with eachother. No one wants sex from eachother just because the other bird preen their entire tail or flight feathers.

Mali and Opa are not mates(my two opposite sex umbrella cockatoos housed in the same room), they can barely tolerate eachother without coming to violence. They are "acquaintances" or "roomates" at best, but when on me or I am interacting with one, the other comes along and they'll preen their entire body feathers. Getting under their wings, preening the entire length of their tail and flight feathers and not once had either of them wanted to mate or go to nest. Theyre housed in the same room, so they have ample opportunity to do these things but they just do not care for eachother in that sort of light. I have had other past birds who preened entire body feathers on neutral grounds, none were mates.

 

[kimba47]

The vet did put a stitch in the vent lips to assist with keeping the cloaca inside.....the first time this helped. She did this stitch only AFTER
he was given several shots of depo lupron to counteract his hormones which were causing his cloaca to swell pretty large. She said it was big. My understanding is that the hormones
enable a larger cloaca (space) for the feces so they dont poop in their nest while assisting with the young. The cloaca was very swollen when we first went in to the vet's office.
Not only did he get the shot to counteract his horomones but she also gave him a shot of dolorex to immediately help control the pain.
We had to go back a few weeks later and then he received another shot and subsequently, the cloaca went back to normal. Then on the 3rd visit or so she did the suture. My understanding was it was imperative first to get the swelling and pain handled before we tried to utilize a stitch

things seemed to look up and go well but there was another flare up.
We went thru the entire procedure again of depo lupron shot, celebrex, nystatin, and clavamox..........and got the swelling down again.
She went to do a stitch the 2nd time and he just wouldnt agree to leave the stitch alone. My Too took that stitch right out that night. So I am just not sure
if its the pain, the strain and poop left behind, the itch, a combination...... or what that keeps the viscous cycle alive because a few times I thought we had it licked only to see the cloaca again.I almost feel i screw up with not keeping the pain in check .....its confusing even when you focus and try to be perceptive....

There is no denying that he strains though. He lifts and pushes and I dont lend any energy or attention. I look out of the corner of my eye.
I have talked to him and said you need to get well, your butt is sore and no pushing. I know he understands.
Consequently, that Is why I syringe water to him thru out the day and water with
spectomycin ( used to get rid of oxygen needed bacteria (aerobic). This helps make sure he has enuf liquid to help the solids fully slide out because what happens is the end bit of poop
stays in and he must feel like pooping still.

 

[Bokkapooh]

You might want to try and get the stitches back in. But also perhaps reevaluate the diet you feed him.

The food you feed him will definitely effect the pooping. Food like zupreem pellets causes birds to have borderline diarrhea (loose stools) where as Harrison's pellets will make a bird have formed poops.

I feel that Harrison's is the best on the net to get a bird to have the best poop possible. Ofcourse fresh produce and other healthy variety is important.

Hydration is important but you dont want him to be over hydrated because he'll have to strain to release excess water too.

Have you ever seen your guy drink lots of water during a shower or bath? My guys do. And their crops Bulge with water. I remember when Koo drank tons of water she began straining like crazy to expelled all the excess water she drank. It causes normal birds to have squirt gun butts but a bird with a prolapse may feel overly uncomfortable with too much water in their systems.

Your birds prolapse, is the urinary tract holes exposed?

 

[kimba47]

I think I feed him Zupreem pellets. Sweet potatoes every day.....he is a picky turd to feed....He was a pretty bird pellet eater for years but
I havent seen those in awhile. The only veges or even foods I can get him to eat are the dark purple or reds grapes (I know no value and prob sugar), bing cherries,
bananas but very limitedly because of the sugar, and eggs (scrambled, fried ) and almonds in the shell....i give him small amounts every few days of safflower and sunflower
as a treat. I am going to cook a pie pumpkin and try that on him.....he is picky

holes? I see only one hole and that is where I go with the q tip to put it back. I use a water based lubricant. Usually there is a piece of broke off poop for me to see
where it is..... I delicately try to remove the poop , drop some drops of melissa supreme non alcohol and then gently apply some pressure until i see it let in or loosen uo and then I gently
push it in all the way. Then I clean it up outside.