Help with Interpretation of Vet Findings

[Nostromo]

Hi guys!

Looking for some insight about what the avian vet told us today.

Our almost 10 yo Pionus has had chronic sneezing/respiratory issues since we adopted her 2.5 years ago. The issues come and go, and never seemed to get worse; we didn't have the money to afford full testing, and when we took her to the avian vet, they said she looked okay and probably just had sensitive nares. Well, recently she seemed to get worse - sneezing more often, at times seeming to struggle to breath. We took her in this morning. She's molting, and I think looking a little worse because of it. This vet had a totally different impression than other vets we saw.

This vet says she has pretty significant vitamin deficiency, probably has had vitamin deficiency long term. She is missing all of the papillae on her choanal slit, which the vet said could possibly be causing food and moisture to rise up into her sinus cavity, and may explain her chronic sneezing and congestion. Vet didn't hear any signs of pneumonia or congestion in the air sacs on exam, but said she did seem to breath hard and fast and sneeze a lot after exam and blood draw. Vet said her beak is flaky and feathers are a little dull (she is molting, and usually looks kind of ratty during a molt, not sure if that explains the feathers). I noticed that she has lost 10 grams since she was weighed last in January, but it wasn't the same time of day, so not sure if that is significant. Also wondering why vets didn't catch the problem with choanal slit earlier? Could her vitamin deficiency be recent? She was last seen in January 2020. We know she was fed seed and veggies before we got her, for her first 8 years of life; we feed her Roudybush pellets the past two years, no seed. She gets some fruit and veggies but I've been kind of lazy about it lately. Could lack of fruit & veg be causing her deficiency, or would it be from her previous owners' diet?

We had her blood drawn at the vet and will get results in 3 to 5 days; obviously we'll know a lot more then. Just feeling anxious that maybe she's got something serious going on. Vet mentioned possibility of heart disease or liver disease due to long-term poor diet before we got her, or a serious fungal infection. Vet gave her a vitamin booster but no other meds until we get her blood draw back.

Any knowledge or advice would be appreciated!

 

[Shezbug]

@Hankmacaw

 

[Hankmacaw]

Your bird could very well have a Vitamin A deficiency - lack of choanal papillae is one of the most common symptoms. But it sounds as if your bird may have more than one disease. This is why wee test until the issue is found as early as possible - one problem just piles on another until you have insurmountable mountain to climb.

I don't know why the first vet didn't notice (or didn't say anything) about the choanal papillae. Vitamin A deficiency is the still the most diagnosed illness in pet birds. You also should realize that there are very good vets, adequate vets and very bad vets - just like with any profession.

Buy a scale that measures in grams (about $10 at Walmart) and faithfully measure your bird's weight no less than once a week. Weigh right after the big morning poop and before breakfast - keep a record since weiht loss is one of the firs indications of illness or something else wrong.

Your bird may also have an infection, but you will know about that when the test results get back

Please keep us informed.

 

[Nostromo]

@Hankmacaw Thank you - this is so helpful. How long does the missing choanal papillae take to develop when there is a deficiency of vitamin A? And would you expect a bird to develop such a deficiency on Roudybush pellets? I want to know whether this problem was already present when we got her 2.5 years ago, or if it is new. She has been sneezing and intermittently congested since we got her. Thank you again!

 

[finchly]

Roudybush is one of the best foods out there. That said, most birds have a vit A deficiency. Personally, I’m of the mind that whole, raw foods are best and they need the vit A foods. Are you feeding anything fresh?
You will never know whether the deficiency was present earlier on or not, if you didn’t have baseline tests when you first got her.
Sounds like you have a great vet.
Thank you for taking on this little sweetie. I have 2 pionus, a blue head and a white cap.

 

[Nostromo]

Roudybush is one of the best foods out there. That said, most birds have a vit A deficiency. Personally, I’m of the mind that whole, raw foods are best and they need the vit A foods. Are you feeding anything fresh?
You will never know whether the deficiency was present earlier on or not, if you didn’t have baseline tests when you first got her.
Sounds like you have a great vet.
Thank you for taking on this little sweetie. I have 2 pionus, a blue head and a white cap.

She does get fresh foods, and I've tried to include vit A fresh foods particularly - she enjoys and eats sweet potato, squash and mango. She's picky and won't eat many other A-rich foods. She happily devours most fruits and berries. She usually only eats fresh food once or twice a week, though; she won't eat it at all if there's pellets offered at the same time, so we remove her pellets for that day and she eats fresh. I guess I'm worried I should've been offering fresh foods every day.

 

[finchly]

Don’t beat yourself up. If she was deficient when she came to you (likely) then there was no way for you to catch her up, even with daily veggies.

 

[Nostromo]

@finchly Thanks. Rationally I know that she came to me on a seed-only diet, no pellets, that she'd been eating for 8 years; that's what's likely to blame for her troubles now. But the parrots are so helpless when we keep them as pets, totally dependent on our diligence and attentiveness. So knowing that I might have done something better for her and didn't kind of eats at me! She'll get what she needs now, though, and that's the best I can do. I do so appreciate your guys' help and insights.

 

[Hankmacaw]

For a bird that has vitamin deficiency (for any bird, for that matter), I highly recommend giving them Red Palm oil on a daily basis. Please read Dr. Harrison's article on RPO.
Red Palm Oil Benefits

• Reduces Cholesterol Levels.
• Slows the Progression of Heart Disease.
• Boosts Brain Health.
• Enhances Vitamin A Status.
• Reduces Oxidative Stress.
• Improves Skin and Hair Health.

SUNSHINE FACTOR – Here are the facts | Harrison's Bird Foods

 

[CrazyKozmo]

Gosh, glad that you found a good, competent vet. Let us know how this progresses.

 

[Nostromo]

@Hankmacaw Thanks for this! I'm now reading up on red palm oil and I'll ask the vet about it once we get her results back. Fortunately Zephyr does love sweet potato and butternut squash so I'm also thinking I'll steam some, store them in ice cube trays, and feed them every day. But I would love to have a supplement that was bio-available and helped take some of the pressure off of getting enough vitamin A to her through food.

@rfrank Thank you!! The other vets were pretty good, I think; definitely they were very highly regarded avian specialists. I think because we couldn't afford the blood tests they just shrugged their shoulders at us. I'm also convinced that it's more obvious what's going on with her right now because she's molting and therefore already stressed. Not finding the choanal slit abnormality was strange though. I remember other vets saying they didn't suspect Vit A deficiency, so maybe it really did just pop up in the last couple of months.

 

[Nostromo]

Hello again! I have one last follow up question for you all... @Hankmacaw @finchly do you guys have an opinion about Harrison's versus Roudybush? And if Harrisons, the high potency versus maintenance? I'm wondering if Harrison's might give her better vitamins than Roudybush. I got a response from our vet's office, who says that on exam just a few months ago, Z had a normal choanal slit. So I guess this deficiency is new. Which is surprising, given she eats Roudybush now, and before we got her she was eating only seeds.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Hankmacaw]

Both brands of pellets provide all of the vitamins that they need. Have you or the vets considered that she is not adsorbing vitamin A. High potency does not have more vitamins (to my knowledge), but it is higher in fats and protein.

Is she eating enough of the pellets? Does she still get any seeds? Did her test results come back with any infections or abnormalities.

 

[Nostromo]

@Hankmacaw - haven't gotten blood tests back yet. She eats the pellets with gusto. Doesn't eat any seeds except as a very occasional treat. No, I hadn't considered the possibility she isn't absorbing well... I'll ask about this when the tests come back and I speak to the vet again. Could something other than Vit A deficiency cause her choanal slit to lose the papillae? I'm also kind of stumped because the missing papillae had been my explanation for why she has chronic respiratory problems (sneezing, snuffling) for the past two years. But if that is a new development, it wouldn't explain her long history of breathing issues...

 

[Hankmacaw]

A bird that has had long term chronic infections will also lose their papillae. If her tests show that she has another condition, that condition may cause the issue with the vitamin A deficiency.

I prefer Harrisons High Potency. This is from Harrison's High Potency; "• Year-round formula for all medium to large parrots, especially African greys, cockatoos, large conures, eclectus, macaws and pionus."

The only reason I don't like Roudybush's High Energy Breeder is that they changed the formula and put alfalfa in it which my bird did not like one bit.

I think it's a little early in the diagnosis process to nail the cause of the deficiency down. Need the results of the tests to put all the pieces of the puzzle together.

 

[Nostromo]

@Hankmacaw So, we got the blood test results! It was a voicemail left by the vet tech, so I didn't get to ask any questions yet; I'll be finding out more hopefully on Monday. The vet reported Z has high white blood cell counts, so they suspect a bacterial or fungal infection. They've prescribed antibiotics & antifungals, with a probiotic. They also reported low calcium levels, and suggested a supplement. That was the only findings reported. So - does that mean she doesn't actually have low Vit A? Do they check that on blood tests? She was given antibiotics a few months ago for the same respiratory issue with no effect, so I'm guessing she has a fungal infection. Can we expect that to resolve with treatment? Thanks so much for your help!!!

 

[Hankmacaw]

There is a specific test for the vitamin levels in a bird's blood, Vitamin A deficiency is usually diagnosed by external indications (like your vet did, then followed us with the specific test for vitamin levels in the blood. Remember that long term infections can also cause the papillae to blunt. The calcium deficiency can cause some of the same symptoms, depending on how low the calcium is.
You can start grinding a Tums and sprinkle it over her food a couple of time a week to correct the low calcium.

The higher than normal WBC indicates infection. It appears as if your bird has had a low grade infection for at least 2.5 years. The antibiotic and fungicide should do the job. Be sure you give them as directed and for as long as the Dr. indicated. And. don't forget to give the probiotic, If the medications given don't work, you can ask for a culture and sensitivity. That test will identify the specific antibiotic that this bacteria is sensitive to. Let the current antibiotic work first. Almost all fungi are sensitive to all fungicides.

Here is a good article by Dr. Sakas. I keep it printed out and refer to it for information about testing.

https://nilesanimalhospital.com/files/2012/05/Understanding-Avian-Laboratory-Tests.pdf

Be sure you ask your vet for the testing results and keep them, so you have a backwards reference.

 

[Nostromo]

@Hankmacaw Wonderful, thank you - so incredibly helpful! I truly appreciate it!

 

[Nostromo]

Update for any of those who are interested... Our lady of the wing is feeling much better! She's been on her antifungal & antibiotic a little over a week now, and her energy level has gone way up. She's flying around the house and stealing food instead of just chilling in her cage. Her sneezing is way reduced and she hasn't snuffled or wheezed at all the past week. We thoroughly cleaned her cage in the hopes that'll help reduce any recurrence. She's been begrudgingly eating some vegetables too.

 

[Tiel Feathers]

Great update, I’m glad she’s feeling better!